Jesus is YHWH
- Thread starter Evil.Eye.<(I)>
- Start date
It is of the Father, an essence of the Father.
CherubRam
New member
CherubRam
New member
I do not know of any scriptures that say that. The bible also says that we are made in the image of God.
CherubRam
New member
Keypurr... I could fight against you, and be insulting, but the truth of the matter is that you miss the most intimate part of the implications of the virgin birth and conception of the Spiritual nature by God Himself.
God forever bound Himself to us in a way that shows a Love that is immeasurable. I know your perspective is set in stone and so is mine. I could quote a verse that says... And Jesus told them He was God... but you would fall back on the idea that God was speaking through Jesus.
The point that I embrace is diametrically different. To me... Jesus was born the very "Voice" and "Express Image" of the Father. I further believe that the very "PRESENCE" of God that spoke to Moses, became intertwined with humanity forever.
It bothers me that you rewrite scripture to dismiss the most beautiful part of scripture. This is also the very foundation of all atonement.
I personally believe that you dislike the idea that only God is Good and that we cannot be like Christ, but by Love and the promise of what is to come in our Resurrection.
You are unique Cherubram... Many different Christologies exist... but you make the Spirit and the Holy Spirit one, while distinguishing Jesus as created and "a God".
This is fairly one of a kind and it is intriguing. You know that I strictly adhere to the concept of TriUnity, but I appreciate your perspective and sincerely can't quite understand your direction of speech...
How do you reckon the implications of Romans 8:9; Php. 1:19; and Eph. 1:13 ?
Greetings again Evil.Eye and glorydaz,
John 9:8-9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Now getting back to Evil.Eye’s format of supplying two quotations, but also expanding on the above discussion at the same time, the following also have the same Greek expression, and in both they are translated the same as “I am (he)”, showing again that the translators did not suggest a link with Exodus 3:14, but were suggesting that Jesus was referring to the context:
John 9:8-9 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now the expression “I am he” occurs twice above, but there are good reasons why this is not referring to Exodus 3:14. The first is Jesus’ answer, that he was “Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning”, in other words, neither they in their question nor Jesus in his answer suggest that they were talking about Exodus 3:14. The second reason is associated with the second occurrence. He calls himself “the Son of man” and states that “I do nothing of myself” and that he is dependent on his Father who taught him what to speak. Thus the “I am he” here is not claiming to be Deity, but a man dependent on God the Father.
There is one God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
I did not know that I was of a rare variety, but yes I believe that there is one God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am reticent to use the term Unitarian as this sometimes defines a group with a large range of differing views.
In Post #5 I responded to the view presented by glorydaz in his suggestion when quoting John 18:6, 8. I claimed that the often used link between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 is not valid because Ehyeh in Exodus 3:14 is translated correctly by Tyndale as “I will be”. It is also interesting that in both John 18:6 and 18:8 the KJV translators do not attempt to link these passages with Exodus 3:14 because in both of these they added (he), thus “I am (he)”, and this gives a different sense than “I am”. It is similar to the man born blind when he uses the same expression:
John 9:8-9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Now getting back to Evil.Eye’s format of supplying two quotations, but also expanding on the above discussion at the same time, the following also have the same Greek expression, and in both they are translated the same as “I am (he)”, showing again that the translators did not suggest a link with Exodus 3:14, but were suggesting that Jesus was referring to the context:
John 9:8-9 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now the expression “I am he” occurs twice above, but there are good reasons why this is not referring to Exodus 3:14. The first is Jesus’ answer, that he was “Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning”, in other words, neither they in their question nor Jesus in his answer suggest that they were talking about Exodus 3:14. The second reason is associated with the second occurrence. He calls himself “the Son of man” and states that “I do nothing of myself” and that he is dependent on his Father who taught him what to speak. Thus the “I am he” here is not claiming to be Deity, but a man dependent on God the Father.
There is one God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Hi Trevor,
Thank you for being so clear about your stance. There is a way about you in your expressing yourself that makes matters clear. Though I have a different view than you, I believe you and [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] might be enormously similar in your understandings. Honestly, he won't debate with me because he's about peace and agreeing to disagree. I am enormously capable of agreeing to disagree and if an individual is as respectful as you and 1m1s ... I am inclined to enjoy discussion.
I made this thread to have fun expressing my perspective, but also providing a format for others to have fun sharing theirs, and also giving us all a chance to peacefully debate by sharing our favorite thing that brings us all together... "Scripture".
Obviously God is the super duper favorite thing... but... alas... since we all have different "ologies"... it allows us to move forward with scripture and enjoy discussion.
Kind regards and all grace in Him,
- EE
Luke 2:11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.[/indent
Is. 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Hi Oats,
Philippians 2 is a very important chapter for all believers. It expresses how the Son is equal to God and then goes on to express that He willingly humbled Himself for the purpose of Heb. 2:14.
This is unique to us, because we are only counted "equal" to God by His Love for us. We are never like Him and we are never "equal" to Him, but by His Love. Philippians 2 is a very special chapter, because it expresses that humility is the very "mind of Christ".
This is my short answer,
- EE
KingdomRose
New member
No Jesus is not YHWH. Jehovah (YHWH) and Jesus are always differentiated between, throughout the Bible. How can Jesus be Jehovah in these two scriptures?
"Jehovah said to my Lord the Messiah, 'Rule as my regent---I will subdue your enemies and make them bow low before you. Jehovah has established your throne in from Zion to rule over your enemies.'" (Psalm 110:1,2, Living Bible)
"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me [Jesus], because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, to proclaim to captives liberty, and to bound ones an opening of bands. To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all mourners." (Isaiah 61:1,2, Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) Jesus applied this scripture to himself at Luke 4:18-21.
KingdomRose
New member
Not so. Those scriptures do not show that Jesus was inferring that he was the "I Am" as at Exodus 3:14. He expresses a totally common phrase that is used thousands of times in the Scriptures by many different people. None of those other people that say "I am" are saying that they are YHWH. Take a look at John 9:9 for example. The blind man uses the same wording that Jesus was using at John 18:6,8. "I am he." There is unbelievable inconsistency in how these words are handled by biased translators. Have you actually looked at John 9:9? If anyone needs proof that ego eimi need not be a quote from the Old Testament, and is NOT reserved as a title of God, here it is! If ego eimi is not a divine self-proclamation in the mouth of the blind man, then it cannot be such a proclamation in the mouth of Jesus just a few verses earlier (and at John 18:6,8).
If your reasoning is that Jesus is God based on those verses, then the blind man is also God.
KingdomRose
New member
Indeed, how can Jesus be YHWH and yet be a MEDIATOR between YHWH and himself?
Hi KingdomRose...
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Deuteronomy 32:11
As an eagle stirs up its nest,
Hovers over its young,
Spreading out its wings, taking them up,
Carrying them on its wings,
As an eagle stirs up its nest,
Hovers over its young,
Spreading out its wings, taking them up,
Carrying them on its wings,
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
KingdomRose
New member
You are relying on two poorly rendered verses. Have you done enough research to know that those verses are rendered very differently in many Bible versions? Apparently not.
Philippians 2:6 is translated as saying quite the OPPOSITE in many versions:
"Who, although he existed in the form of God [spirit], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped." ("Grasped" meaning taking something that did not belong to him before.) New American Standard Bible; New American Bible; New International Version; 21st Century New Testament; Good News for Modern Man [Today's English Version]; James Moffatt Translation; Revised Standard Version ....I think these outnumber your version.
Titus 2:13 is so easy to correct. All we need to do is add a COMMA between "God" and "and." There are two Persons being referred to here. God AND Jesus Christ. You know, do you not, that there are no punctuation marks in Greek? But in English translation we put them where they belong, to preserve the meaning. Obviously someone decided to enhance his own BIAS by running the sentence altogether to try and show that Jesus is our great God---something that Paul never said anywhere else in his writings.
A comma isn't even necessary if we want to preserve the intended meaning. The New American Bible renders the verse in a way that shows two individuals being referred to:
"As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God [YHWH] and of our savior Jesus Christ."
The James Moffatt Translation also renders it that way:
"Awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God [YHWH] and of our Savior Christ Jesus."
I think it is obvious that it is easy for a biased person to make that verse seem to say that God is Jesus, but that is not what all versions set forth. There is some doubt as to the meaning that the two are the same. The Interpreter's Bible says this in its footnote: "The Greek of 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ' is AMBIGUOUS and therefore capable of being interpreted as referring to two persons rather than one."
So, EvilEye, your scriptural examples are not valid examples. Show some that cannot be taken two ways.
KingdomRose
New member
I think that the verse you quoted is excellent for proving that Jesus and God are not the same. He says "my God, referring to the Father, Jehovah. Jesus is saying that his Father is his God. Does God have a God? No. (See John 20:17.)
KingdomRose
New member
Jehovah is the Savior over all, as He is the SOURCE of all life and power. His means of salvation is Jesus Christ. It was Jehovah's idea for someone to come to Earth to save mankind. Jesus agreed to do it. So we can call Jesus our "Savior" because he was the instrument of salvation, but Jehovah is the ultimate, supreme Savior because He planned it all and GAVE His Son the power to carry out the assignment that He gave to him. Jesus said that he couldn't do anything of his own initiative (John 5:19), but just what the Father exemplified for him to do, and the Father gave him a measure of glory and gave him the position above all others that he achieved, for obeying the Father and carrying through on his assignment. (Philippians 2:8-11)
KingdomRose
New member
Believers must understand that Phil.2:6 can be translated two ways, and many many versions render it to say that Jesus never gave a thought to becoming equal to God. Thus he is truly humble.