JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[freelight]

Truth for you......

Truth for you......

Yeah, you never left Mormonism :doh: This is just redressed evolution-as-god ridiculousness.

I Left mormonism in the late 80s after much research and became a born again christian, then Spirit filled charasmatic-Pentecostal and evolved further over the years (never got stuck into any one sect or denomination within Christianity, for the Christ is not constrained by the narrow dictates of human tradition or dogma) into the eclectic spiritualist I am today....and continuing to unfold, evolve and progress along. Life is a journey of consciousness, learning, progressive revelation. You dont know the whole of my spiritual journey, past life experiences, religious studies, philosophical dispositions, etc. Except the limited impression you have from a limited exposure of a biased interpretation of only a few features of my theology that you've read on the forum here, which is but a small part of a much larger vista, ....so much is a matter of 'not seeing the forest for the trees'. This is just a sector of a past catalog here, while the subject of an infinite Deity includes a frontier much greater then these.

You're still confusing or wrongly correlating mormonism with Urantia theology,....as previously explained here, they are very different. The only similarities are in the basic religious principles and values shared by all judeo-christian sects and many world traditions, universal in nature, because moral and ethical truths are universal. Consider the golden rule.

Your 'god' is the product of the universe rather than being the only Eternal.

More of your false assumptions and bigoted preconceptions showing. I've never proposed such a thing. Your 'god' might just be a 'concept' no better or worse than any other.

Your 'eternal' never touches the infinite :nono:

What is infinite is infinite,....a finite mind cannot grasp, contain or fully comprehend the truly infinite.

Cults don't 'hold' or stand, they fall at the feet of absolute truth and are crushed under the Stone the builders rejected.

There you go speaking of 'cults' again as if to marginalize and judge the other person as somehow being associated with a 'cult' which is somewhat comical, given that your own belief-system belongs to a certain traditional cult with its own brand of theology derived from older religious cults and teachings, potpourried together and then deemed 'orthodox'.

As far as the Rock goes, plenty of christian sects and Christ centered religions honor him, maybe in different ways, as each are entitled to their own revelation or interpretation of his teachings, which by the way are not limited to any formalized canon or 'tradition'. You or your religion have no monopoly on 'God'.

 

[freelight]

Beyond both sides...into infinity.......

Beyond both sides...into infinity.......

So... you do this thing where you speak out both sides of your mouth and say things like... "my perspective still holds".

- sharing my view is just that,....consider that point of view ....is all that is being proposed. Other points of view may pertain. Is 'God' infinite or not? Infinity contains all viewpoints, as well as transcends them.

But... you don't even respect the 66 book bible as the authority that it is. Further more... You act like opinion is fact and Truth is Relative.

I dont limit God to a number, let alone a book or books

Opinion is opinion.

There is absolute reality and relative truths, its a matter of recognizing within the context of things what is 'absolute' and what is 'relative'.

That's not higher Spiritual teaching... that's deception!

Truth ever leads us forward, no intentional deception is involved, but our viewpoints, opinions and assumptions may change because of seeing new insights and broadening our vision of reality.

I just brought up the example of Urantia Book Christology to show a perfectly monotheistic model can be sustained in a cosmology where there is One Universal Father who is the First Source and Center of all. - with many Creator Sons who go forth to create worlds, universes in space, and populate those worlds with mortal souls giving them the opportunity to become immortal and serve God in the worlds to come in eternity. A Creator-Son is not the Father, but in divine nature and Godlikeness....is as 'God' to the created worlds, so we relate to and worship the Father in and thru our beloved Creator-Son....for Deity is One anyways....we respect the divine personalities. So from a UB perspective, Jesus is as our god and father, since he is the creator and lord of this particular universe of worlds. There is still ever and always the Universal Father who is the Father of all Creator-Sons. See the hierarchy here? This is according to one presentation of universe order and divine government given in a particular book. If interested in exploring that, see the respective thread.

Back to the general subject, it matters not from the higher cosmic overview whether one keeps to a monotheistic Unitarian or Trinitarian view, since there is one Deity anyways, always and everyway.

Understanding the above is important since reality includes all dimensions, and well as having no dimensions.

 

[Lon]

Nope, truth you need.

Nope, truth you need.

:nono: Rather truth for you.

I Left mormonism in the late 80s after much research and became a born again christian, then Spirit filled charasmatic-Pentecostal and evolved further over the years (never got stuck into any one sect or denomination within Christianity, for the Christ is not constrained by the narrow dictates of human tradition or dogma) into the eclectic spiritualist I am today....and continuing to unfold, evolve and progress along. Life is a journey of consciousness, learning, progressive revelation. You dont know the whole of my spiritual journey, past life experiences, religious studies, philosophical dispositions, etc. Except the limited impression you have from a limited exposure of a biased interpretation of only a few features of my theology that you've read on the forum here, which is but a small part of a much larger vista, ....so much is a matter of 'not seeing the forest for the trees'. This is just a sector of a past catalog here, while the subject of an infinite Deity includes a frontier much greater then these.

"than" While some Charismatic churches are more orthodox than others, they are all wrought with emotionalism rather than knowledge, you simply traded.

You're still confusing or wrongly correlating mormonism with Urantia theology,....as previously explained here, they are very different. The only similarities are in the basic religious principles and values shared by all judeo-christian sects and many world traditions, universal in nature, because moral and ethical truths are universal. Consider the golden rule.

:doh: No, you are. :doh:

More of your false assumptions and bigoted preconceptions showing. I've never proposed such a thing. Your 'god' might just be a 'concept' no better or worse than any other.

Bigoted? Yes. John 14:6 False? No.
Why isn't it false? Because your god, like the Mormons, is a god that becomes and is becoming in a long line of gods before him/her. Isaiah says otherwise. You are a polytheist. Oh, you'll say 'one in purpose' like all the other cults, but you mean the exact same thing: A bunch of gods who are all 'one in purpose.'

What is infinite is infinite,....a finite mind cannot grasp, contain or fully comprehend the truly infinite.

Yet, finite you, constrains God to your finite imaginings and reject the Bible as the Only source where God dictates to man, as well as reject the Lord Jesus Christ as the ONLY Way, Truth, and Life. There cannot be more than one Truth, FL PJ. Salvation is found in no one else. Acts 4:12

There you go speaking of 'cults' again as if to marginalize and judge the other person as somehow being associated with a 'cult' which is somewhat comical, given that your own belief-system belongs to a certain traditional cult with its own brand of theology derived from older religious cults and teachings, potpourried together and then deemed 'orthodox'.

:nono: You've done this to yourself. you are a cult. You are marginalized. Your religion is the Borg version of cults, not mine.
What is biblical IS orthodox. Yours is anything BUT biblical. The Urantia is worthless.

As far as the Rock goes, plenty of christian sects and Christ centered religions honor him, maybe in different ways, as each are entitled to their own revelation or interpretation of his teachings, which by the way are not limited to any formalized canon or 'tradition'. You or your religion have no monopoly on 'God'.

:nono: No. You don't. You 'dis'honor Him. 1 John 2:19 You aren't 'expanding' you are shrinking into vast untruth, and happy there. Bigot? Yes. There is only One. You don't honor Him. You've given Him a pass. WAKE UP! Hebrews 3:15

 

[Lon]

- sharing my view is just that,....consider that point of view ....is all that is being proposed. Other points of view may pertain. Is 'God' infinite or not? Infinity contains all viewpoints, as well as transcends them.

No, you are a mimic, another throw back to your Mormon days, you say one thing to gain Christian audience, all the while lying about terms you've rejected. It is frankly, two-faced. You are not and cannot be honest. Even YOU despise the Urantia. It is the LAST thing you introduce yourself as, not the first. Do you wonder why? I don't. It is obvious: duplicitous BECAUSE it is deliberate.

I dont limit God to a number, let alone a book or books

Don't smile about it. That is simply being a social butterfly and embracing Satan in one group, then hugging Raj Nish, then atheists as if there was peace. 2 Corinthians 11:3,4

Opinion is opinion.

▲There you go▲ you just proved my point. You are a borg. A half-life. A piece of Jello standing for nothing, unstable in all your ways, ever 'expanding' in a shrinking universe of you.

Galatians 1:8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

:nono: Opinion is NOT just opinion after all.

There is absolute reality and relative truths, its a matter of recognizing within the context of things what is 'absolute' and what is 'relative'.

No it is not. If I smack you upside the head, you'll know reality and absolute. You weren't spanked enough as a child. You run from reality and cannot stand it.Galatians 1:6-9

Truth ever leads us forward, no intentional deception is involved, but our viewpoints, opinions and assumptions may change because of seeing new insights and broadening our vision of reality.

Nope. That is simply YOU on a journey to nowhere. If God gets a hold of you, your journey will be forward, but it will not be the broad road you've chosen in the opposite direction. Frankly, you are lost. 1 John

I just brought up the example of Urantia Book Christology to show a perfectly monotheistic model can be sustained in a cosmology where there is One Universal Father who is the First Source and Center of all. - with many Creator Sons who go forth to create worlds, universes in space, and populate those worlds with mortal souls giving them the opportunity to become immortal and serve God in the worlds to come in eternity. A Creator-Son is not the Father, but in divine nature and Godlikeness....is as 'God' to the created worlds, so we relate to and worship the Father in and thru our beloved Creator-Son....for Deity is One anyways....we respect the divine personalities. So from a UB perspective, Jesus is as our god and father, since he is the creator and lord of this particular universe of worlds. There is still ever and always the Universal Father who is the Father of all Creator-Sons. See the hierarchy here? This is according to one presentation of universe order and divine government given in a particular book. If interested in exploring that, see the respective thread.

Yeah, yeah, we all know...you love your crazytown book.... Be more forthcoming and probably stick to your Urantia thread. We don't need it spamming up other threads.

Back to the general subject, it matters not from the higher cosmic overview whether one keeps to a monotheistic Unitarian or Trinitarian view, since there is one Deity anyways, always and everyway.

Understanding the above is important since reality includes all dimensions, and well as having no dimensions.

1 Timothy 1:18-20

 

[Zeke]

Lon lives by imposed generational assumptions of worldly religious/govern mentalist, programmed from after birth/certificate that stole his birth rights and sold him into debt slavery to this world, he worships his masters institutions that may let him disagree on doctrinal issues with like "minded" but he must stand on the foundation of a human sacrifice model that disregards Luke 17:20-21, 1Cor 3:16, Acts 17:24, Galatians 4:24, Gods will for all becomes only for a selected elite like he thinks he is though he tries to mask it with fake humility that mimics this worlds rulers, that alone exposes his dogma as being of, and from this world, the worldly religious/school bell rings and he must salivate like pavlov's dogs, revelation and experience is disregarded as unreliable and he prefers superstitional bondage that has him stuck on the wrong side of 2Cor 3:6. Not realizing the Divine is within everything he unwittingly mocks the Divine with his beloved theology. Wake up baby-lon intellectualism, good grammar, spelling etc.. wont pass the test, only Galatians 1:12 will overcome that mental parasite.

 

[Lon]

Lon lives by imposed blah blah blah, I don't even think Jesus was real...

All of us, but you. You minorities can find some place to call all your own. Now? You love OUR home turfs such as TOL. Try not to complain and cry about it so much. Truth is truth. Nontruth is not. You are going to 'awaken' no 'divine principle.' Romans 6:11 I mentioned this before: You don't even have a "Lord Jesus Christ" to believe in anymore. We are the OPPOSITE of that. We want nothing but Him. Your divine principle is dead to us.
All the emoting in the world and name-calling will do nothing for you. You are alone. You cultists here on TOL, don't even like each other. How often do you go to Freelight's lounge? Go hang out with your own kind?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

All of us, but you. You minorities can find some place to call all your own. Now? You love OUR home turfs such as TOL. Try not to complain and cry about it so much. Truth is truth. Nontruth is not. You are going to 'awaken' no 'divine principle.' Romans 6:11 I mentioned this before: You don't even have a "Lord Jesus Christ" to believe in anymore. We are the OPPOSITE of that. We want nothing but Him. Your divine principle is dead to us.
All the emoting in the world and name-calling will do nothing for you. You are alone. You cultists here on TOL, don't even like each other. How often do you go to Freelight's lounge? Go hang out with your own kind?

You will never become like Jesus Christ without knowing the man by revelation from Heaven.

Discovering His resurrected Glory was never Gods plan of salvation.

but knowing the man is--

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

LA

 

[Lon]

You will never become like Jesus Christ without knowing the man by revelation from Heaven.

Discovering His resurrected Glory was never Gods plan of salvation.

but knowing the man is--

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

LA

Yes, unless the Father draw him/her, they are stuck. On this, and perhaps by intention this too, we agree - Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus alone. Zeke, sadly, has said the Lord Jesus Christ didn't/doesn't even exist. He is deny the ONLY one who could introduce him to the Father. For Zeke, the Lord Jesus Christ is his Stone of Stumbling, rather than the Cornerstone -Lon

 

[freelight]

Different angles of view on the one reality........

Different angles of view on the one reality........

:nono: Rather truth for you. "than" While some Charismatic churches are more orthodox than others, they are all wrought with emotionalism rather than knowledge, you simply traded.

There you go JUDGING groups and catagories again. I think its wrong to make blanket judgments and sweeping generalizations, since I'm sure there are a good many Pentecostal and Charasmatic churches that are very grounded in knowledge, while ALSO flowing in the charismas of the Spirit, to the glory of God.

You do not know my full religious history or experience, since I've not yet written on it fully as of yet. At best you could respectfully refrain from prejudging and presuming so much, until you engage me personally on issues, and let the dialogue speak for itself.

:doh: No, you are. :doh:

Nonsense. Urantia Book Theology and Mormonism are miles apart in some respects, and as I shared, only share some similarities in certain respects. My statement holds, while yours is misconstrued.

Because your god, like the Mormons, is a god that becomes and is becoming in a long line of gods before him/her. Isaiah says otherwise. You are a polytheist. Oh, you'll say 'one in purpose' like all the other cults, but you mean the exact same thing: A bunch of gods who are all 'one in purpose.'

More false assumptions and dubious correlations fluffed from your limited impressions and imaginations. You have no idea of what 'God' I worship in truth, but have plenty of assumptions. You are clueless. And what I shared before holds....." Your 'god' might just be a 'concept' no better or worse than any other." - this truth stands, since you cannot prove otherwise

A classical definition of 'God' or 'Deity' in most traditional monotheistic schools does NOT accept that 'God' changes, evolves, or was once a man, and evolved to become a 'god' among other 'gods', as is assumed in Mormonism. The UB certainly DOES NOT teach such a thing....but holds to an absolute concept of Deity in a monotheistic sense, but extends its concept of Deity as the primal Universal Unity of Spirit into a much larger and synergestic cosmology. You are still dandling over some preconceived assumptions and presumptions about my affiliation or experience within Mormonism, or my religious experience or knowledge, which so far to me, is missing many key elements because of too much subterfuge, misunderstanding and misconstruals.

I'm a polytheist? LOL - I'm no more a polytheist than you, since you worship a company of 3 divine personalities (gods) and still by some divine mystery, ASSUME that each person is 'God'. No matter how you slice or dice it, you have 3 god-personalities, no matter how hard you try to maintain a true monotheism, by saying that each person is God. 3 gods you have...compounded as One God. You worship THREE divine personages. I worship One Living and Universal DEITY, who is God and Father of all, the First Source and Center of all. - this is how the UB describes the Father, and it is fitting. Nothing supersedes or equals the Primacy of the FATHER. (most of the Unitarians here are identifying this 'God' as YHWH, as the thread title and OP asserts, but other views exist. But for the purpose of discussion, I'm alluding to this correlation as well, for the purpose of dialogue, but may allude to other views as well).

Yet, finite you, constrains God to your finite imaginings and reject the Bible as the Only source where God dictates to man, as well as reject the Lord Jesus Christ as the ONLY Way, Truth, and Life. There cannot be more than one Truth, FL PJ. Salvation is found in no one else. Acts 4:12

Only the infinite, can truly know the infinite. Only that which is of 'God' within us, can recognize 'God' without us, while Spirit is ever omnipresent. The kingdom of God is here, now, and all around us.

:nono: You've done this to yourself. you are a cult. You are marginalized. Your religion is the Borg version of cults, not mine.
What is biblical IS orthodox. Yours is anything BUT biblical. The Urantia is worthless.

I'm a cult? That's comical.

The term 'biblical' is arbitrary, and on some levels meaningless, since anyone can claim something is 'biblical', while others reject that 'assignment'.

The Urantia Book has its own meanings and values within what is revealed in it, per its own unique dispensation, and like the Bible, is open for any to study and evaluate for themselves. Thank God.

And still,...'God' who is INFINITE, can never be limited to a book, neither put into a 'box'.

:nono: No. You don't. You 'dis'honor Him. 1 John 2:19 You aren't 'expanding' you are shrinking into vast untruth, and happy there. Bigot? Yes. There is only One. You don't honor Him. You've given Him a pass. WAKE UP! Hebrews 3:15

'God' is One'. One Absolute Reality IS. - all 'else' is 'relative', and is so because it is an extension into finite dimensions, relativity, plurality, difference, multiplicity....being the parts and parcels that make up the complexity within The One Supreme, which thru the process of 'creation' is ever evolving, since 'creation' and 'evolution' are One.

 

[meshak]

What does Urantia have to do with the OP?

Please get back to the OP.

This thread is not about Urantia or whatever that is.

 

[Lon]

There you go JUDGING groups and catagories again. I tink its wrong to make blanket judgments and sweeping generalizations, since I'm sure there are a good many Pentecostal and Charasmatic churches that are very grounded in knowledge, while ALSO flowing in the charismas of the Spirit, to the glory of God.

I think it wise to make blanket statements: "All people going west, by necessity, aren't going east.

You do not know my full religious history or experience, since I've not yet written on it fully as of yet. At best you could respectfully refrain from prejudging and presuming so much, until you engage me personally on issues, and let the dialogue speak for itself.

Er, you are finite. Whatever I don't know is a pretty short history lesson. The rest I've seen plenty enough on TOL these past couple of years. Yeah, I know you.

Nonsense. Urantia Book Theology and Mormonism are miles apart in some respects, and as I shared, only share some similarities in certain respects. My statement holds, while yours is misconstrued.

See, you should have looked what it is about you that traverses the same exact road, going the same direction. Something in you just looks for more of the same ol' same ol' Proverbs 14:12;16:25

More false assumptions and dubious correlations fluffed from your limited impressions and imaginations. You have no idea of what 'God' I worship in truth, but have plenty of assumptions. You are clueless. And what I shared before holds....." Your 'god' might just be a 'concept' no better or worse than any other." - this truth stands, since you cannot prove otherwise

Yeah, I can. You aren't open to truth however. It'd require you to change. lain:

A classical definition of 'God' or 'Deity' in most traditional monotheistic schools does NOT accept that 'God' changes, evolves, or was once a man, and evolved to become a 'god' among other 'gods', as is assumed in Mormonism. The UB certainly DOES NOT teach such a thing....but holds to an absolute concept of Deity in a monotheistic sense, but extends its concept of Deity as the primal Universal Unity of Spirit into a much larger and synergestic cosmology. You are still dandling over some preconceived assumptions and presumptions about my affiliation or experience within Mormonism, or my religious experience or knowledge, which so far to me, is missing many key elements because of too much subterfuge, misunderstanding and misconstruals.

:nono: When I accused you, it was over that part of the UB you quoted and is very much the polytheistic expression of Mormonism. In addition, you've rejected your own brokenness. I know, per fact, that I was without God in the world and in sin. I needed a Savior. You? :nono: Just a guide and a point in some/any direction and then you call that direction good and God. Why? Because you have no concept of sin or that somehow, in God's perfection, there would be imperfection. All because you reject the scriptures that tell you all this.

I'm a polytheist? LOL - I'm no more a polytheist than you, since you worship a company of 3 divine personalities (gods) and still by some divine mystery, ASSUME that each person is 'God'. No matter how you slice or dice it, you have 3 god-personalities, no matter how hard you try to maintain a true monotheism, by saying that each person is God. 3 gods you have...compounded as One God. You worship THREE divine personages. I worship One Living and Universal DEITY, who is God and Father of all, the First Source and Center of all. - this is how the UB describes the Father, and it is fitting. Nothing supersedes or equals the Primacy of the FATHER. (most of the Unitarians here are identifying this 'God' as YHWH, as the thread title and OP asserts, but other views exist. But for the purpose of discussion, I'm alluding to this correlation as well, for the purpose of dialogue, but may allude to other views as well).

I triune concept is not 3 gods. That you think so? Yeah, you've never understood the triune position. We are modal, one God. Tri- in the sense that we cannot understand why scripture would say "none before or after me" yet the Son, called God, is that Creator. How? It doesn't matter BECAUSE you eschew scriptures as the only source of information. The UB contradicts the scripture at every turn and has the audacity to think that a bunch of children in an apartment could make-it-up as they go lain: :nono: It is the childish drivel every quote expresses that it is.

Only the infinite, can truly know the infinite. Only that which is of 'God' within us, can recognize 'God' without us, while Spirit is ever omnipresent. The kingdom of God is here, now, and all around us.

Good, so it requires He speak to us, then. He has done so. There is No UB Jesus, only the one that existed and HIS disciples wrote about Him. There is no other. Scripture (Bible) warns you about anything else and you ran to it like a drone :doh:

I'm a cult? That's comical.

Yes, comical. Everything in it. Cult? Yep AND you know it. End of that story.

The term 'biblical' is arbitrary, and on some levels meaningless, since anyone can claim something is 'biblical', while others reject that 'assignment'

....and you in your 'wisdom' decided that all by yourself, 'Cult.' Do you HONESTLY have the audacity to think you are more intelligent than the rest of us? :think: You aren't even smarter than I am, let alone the rest of us. Unlike the Unit-Arians, at 1 to 600, you are like 1 to a million. You are NOT smarter than a million Christians. I've read your book. It is childish. Not child-like, childish, emoting, immature child-foot-stomping that "God can't be like that!!!!" "It ain't fair!" :noway:

The Urantia Book has its own meanings and values within what is revealed in it, per its own unique dispensation, and like the Bible, is open for any to study and evaluate for themselves. Thank God.

NOTHING like the Bible. Not a chance. What was your highest education? There is something telling about a guy that buys a book made by a bunch of immature Seventh Day Adventists making up fantasy. I have more respect for a Dungeon's and Dragon's group than I do for that book.

And still,...'God' who is INFINITE, can never be limited to a book, neither put into a 'box'.

:nono: You, an infinite man, MUST take your cue from the infinite God AND realize that not all that we experience is supposed to be here.
EVERY religion is man trying to reach God or something they think has meaning for them, BUT one. That one God reaches down to man. You've rejected that one. John 14:6 Acts 4:12 See John 10:1 then keep reading: John 10:1-40
It is INCREDIBLY superior to the BOM, and the Urant.

'God' is One'. One Absolute Reality IS. - all 'else' is 'relative', and is so because it is an extension into finite dimensions, relativity, plurality, difference, multiplicity....being the parts and parcels that make up the complexity within The One Supreme, which thru the process of 'creation' is ever evolving, since 'creation' and 'evolution' are One.

Pantheism thus polytheism lain:

 

[freelight]

Lon lives by imposed generational assumptions of worldly religious/govern mentalist, programmed from after birth/certificate that stole his birth rights and sold him into debt slavery to this world, he worships his masters institutions that may let him disagree on doctrinal issues with like "minded" but he must stand on the foundation of a human sacrifice model that disregards Luke 17:20-21, 1Cor 3:16, Acts 17:24, Galatians 4:24, Gods will for all becomes only for a selected elite like he thinks he is though he tries to mask it with fake humility that mimics this worlds rulers, that alone exposes his dogma as being of, and from this world, the worldly religious/school bell rings and he must salivate like pavlov's dogs, revelation and experience is disregarded as unreliable and he prefers superstitional bondage that has him stuck on the wrong side of 2Cor 3:6. Not realizing the Divine is within everything he unwittingly mocks the Divine with his beloved theology. Wake up baby-lon intellectualism, good grammar, spelling etc.. wont pass the test, only Galatians 1:12 will overcome that mental parasite.

Just one religious programming system, tradition and culture, having the mind 'grid-locked' into just that, not seeing the greater cosmic, esoteric and universal truth, that we are individual expressions of One Deity, mirroring in substance and form that which is from the One Universal MIND

"as above, so below"

 

[KingdomRose]

May I say that it is very kind to try and soft-pedal the stances of the many different groups of religious thought, but I have seen evidence that freelight, for one, sees the disparity between and among the various groups and observes that there are plain advantages over all opinions by one particular expression, deduced directly from the Scriptures. Is Jesus God, or is he YHWH? No. freelight sees what the Scriptures actually say. Therefore, I wonder why it is so important to give credence to ALL religious thought. Isn't there one true God? Doesn't He have certain characteristics and certain requirements? How could ALL denominations be acceptable to Him? There is either a fiery hell or there is not. He is either three or He is ONE. He takes everybody to heaven when they die or He does not. He isn't all things, as freelight's theology would suggest. There has to be ONE way to believe, because God is a Person, with certain specific qualities and desires. How can He be expected to accept every creed that men can dream up?

 

[Nihilo]

May I say that it is very kind to try and soft-pedal the stances of the many different groups of religious thought, but I have seen evidence that freelight, for one, sees the disparity between and among the various groups and observes that there are plain advantages over all opinions by one particular expression, deduced directly from the Scriptures. Is Jesus God, or is he YHWH? No. freelight sees what the Scriptures actually say. Therefore, I wonder why it is so important to give credence to ALL religious thought. Isn't there one true God? Doesn't He have certain characteristics and certain requirements? How could ALL denominations be acceptable to Him? There is either a fiery hell or there is not. He is either three or He is ONE. He takes everybody to heaven when they die or He does not. He isn't all things, as freelight's theology would suggest. There has to be ONE way to believe, because God is a Person, with certain specific qualities and desires. How can He be expected to accept every creed that men can dream up?

I agree. The Eleven Apostles (Paul being the Twelfth) were known as the former disciples of Jesus, WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD. That's the only reason they were famous. That's the only reason anybody knew them as anything. They were fishers, and other mundane vocations. Nobody cared what they thought, until they became the risen Lord's Apostles, and that was only a thing, because the Lord rose from the dead. When that happened, all those associated with Him became somewhat famous, but those who had followed Him around and dwelt with Him (Jn1:14KJV) for three years, they were the Will Smiths and Tom Bradys and President Obamas of the Resurrection. Celebrities.

 

[KingdomRose]

I agree. The Eleven Apostles (Paul being the Twelfth) were known as the former disciples of Jesus, WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD. That's the only reason they were famous. That's the only reason anybody knew them as anything. They were fishers, and other mundane vocations. Nobody cared what they thought, until they became the risen Lord's Apostles, and that was only a thing, because the Lord rose from the dead. When that happened, all those associated with Him became somewhat famous, but those who had followed Him around and dwelt with Him (Jn1:14KJV) for three years, they were the Will Smiths and Tom Bradys and President Obamas of the Resurrection. Celebrities.

They chose Matthias to take the place of Judas, the 12th Apostle. Paul was, you might say, an honorary Apostle.

Thanks for your post. Say, is that you tattooed on the trailer park guy's stomach? (The one on the right?)

 

[JudgeRightly]

They chose Matthias to take the place of Judas, the 12th Apostle.

Correct.

Paul was, you might say, an honorary Apostle.

Paul was the Apostle to the world, a "13th Apostle." He was not just "an honorary apostle.

Fun fact: You know what's interesting? The number 13, throughout the Bible, is the number of rebellion.

Paul (formerly Saul) was rebellious prior to his conversion.

 

[Nihilo]

They chose Matthias to take the place of Judas, the 12th Apostle. Paul was, you might say, an honorary Apostle.

You might say that, but the Church has always called him the Twelfth Apostle.

Thanks for your post. Say, is that you tattooed on the trailer park guy's stomach? (The one on the right?)

No that's Ricky.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You might say that, but the Church has always called him the Twelfth Apostle.
No that's Ricky.

The Bible says that Matthias was numbered with the eleven Apostles.

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)“For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. - Acts 1:15-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts1:15-26&version=NKJV

Which makes him one of the twelve.

The Bible also says that there will be twelve Apostles ruling over the Nation of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." - Matthew 19:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew19:28&version=NKJV

Each Apostle represents the "head" of each tribe of Israel. But the Head of the Body of Christ is Christ Himself.

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:18&version=NKJV

There are many members, but one Body.

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.For in fact the body is not one member but many.If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.And if they were all one member, where would the body be?But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:12-31&version=NKJV

And since Paul is of the Body of Christ (which is an organism), he is simply another member, whom Christ will be ruling over.

In Acts 1 we see the eleven Apostles casting lots to appoint a twelfth. Paul doesn't even show up until several chapters later.

Therefore:
Paul is not the twelfth Apostle, and whoever it is that you call the Church is wrong for stating that he is.

Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” - Romans 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:4&version=NKJV

I'll take God's authority over the "Church's" authority any day.

 

[Nihilo]

The Bible says that Matthias was numbered with the eleven Apostles.

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,“Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)“For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. - Acts 1:15-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts1:15-26&version=NKJV

Which makes him one of the twelve.

The Bible also says that there will be twelve Apostles ruling over the Nation of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." - Matthew 19:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew19:28&version=NKJV

Each Apostle represents the "head" of each tribe of Israel. But the Head of the Body of Christ is Christ Himself.

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:18&version=NKJV

There are many members, but one Body.

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.For in fact the body is not one member but many.If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.And if they were all one member, where would the body be?But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:12-31&version=NKJV

And since Paul is of the Body of Christ (which is an organism), he is simply another member, whom Christ will be ruling over.

In Acts 1 we see the eleven Apostles casting lots to appoint a twelfth. Paul doesn't even show up until several chapters later.

Therefore:
Paul is not the twelfth Apostle, and whoever it is that you call the Church is wrong for stating that he is.

Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” - Romans 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:4&version=NKJV

I'll take God's authority over the "Church's" authority any day.

It doesn't matter what you say that Sacred Scripture says, and the reason for that is right in the Bible. There are men who are the official Church's official teachers of the Church's one faith (Eph4:5KJV). They're called overseers and pastors and bishops and elders, and they are those teachers the Church should heed, not just any Tom, Dick, and Harry with a Bible and a Strong's, and equally we should not heed only ourselves and whatever we may think that the Bible is saying to us.

The Apostles were the first pastors of the Church, and the first non-Apostle bishops are those men the Apostles personally ordained, through the imposition of hands, which is also mentioned in the Bible. Plus, we have epistles addressed to specific bishops; Timothy and Titus; plus, we know that James the Just who wrote the eponymous epistle was not an Apostle, and Luke the doctor was not an Apostle either, even though they both wrote Scripture. (The Holy Spirit breathed New Testament Scripture by non-Apostles in some cases.)

And Paul was an Apostle, you can't get away from that in the Bible, nor with what the Bible reads plus what actually happened (recorded history). He is the Twelfth Apostle.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It doesn't matter what you say that Sacred Scripture says, and the reason for that is right in the Bible. There are men who are the official Church's official teachers of the Church's one faith (Eph4:5KJV). They're called overseers and pastors and bishops and elders, and they are those teachers the Church should heed, not just any Tom, Dick, and Harry with a Bible and a Strong's, and equally we should not heed only ourselves and whatever we may think that the Bible is saying to us.

The Apostles were the first pastors of the Church, and the first non-Apostle bishops are those men the Apostles personally ordained, through the imposition of hands, which is also mentioned in the Bible. Plus, we have epistles addressed to specific bishops; Timothy and Titus; plus, we know that James the Just who wrote the eponymous epistle was not an Apostle, and Luke the doctor was not an Apostle either, even though they both wrote Scripture. (The Holy Spirit breathed New Testament Scripture by non-Apostles in some cases.)

And Paul was an Apostle, you can't get away from that in the Bible, nor with what the Bible reads plus what actually happened (recorded history). He is the Twelfth Apostle.

I'm curious as to whether you even read what I wrote. It's very simple (if a bit long in the tooth).

I am not denying that Paul is not an Apostle. :nono:

I am denying (using God's word as my authority) that he is one of the twelve Apostles over Israel.

There's a reason I quoted Romans 3:4 in my post, Nihilo, and that's because God (through the authors) wrote the Bible. If Scripture says that Matthias was appointed the twelfth Apostle after Judas committed suicide, then that scripture takes precedence over what any man says, even if that man is a teacher, pastor, bishop, pope, etc.

LET GOD BE TRUE, and every man a liar.

I showed you where Matthias was appointed to be the twelfth. So who should I believe is the twelfth apostle? Matthias? or Paul?

Who should I believe, or in other words, who has more authority on scriptural matters, you or Luke?

It doesn't matter what you say that Sacred Scripture says, and the reason for that is right in the Bible. There are men who are the official Church's official teachers of the Church's one faith (Eph4:5KJV).

Are you attempting to place man's authority over scripture's by saying this?

The Bible says let God be true and every man a liar for a reason, Nihilo. That reason is that anything that goes against what God says is false teaching.