JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[Lon]

In the scriptures you have quoted here, it says that God highly exalted Jesus, because of his obedience to him. This itself shows us that God is the God of Christ Jesus too! Why would God need to exalt Jesus because of his obedience (which was unto death), if Jesus was God?

Because He was cast as Son, a little lower than the angels, willingly. It all makes sense and better sense from a Triune position. All other versions greatly confuse scriptures.

 

[marhig]

Because He was cast as Son, a little lower than the angels, willingly. It all makes sense and better sense from a Triune position. All other versions greatly confuse scriptures.

Well no, because it says that God exalted Christ Jesus because of his obedience unto death. So for God to exalt our Lord Jesus because of his obedience, then God has to be his God too

 

[marhig]

If you want the truth of the identity of the Lord Jesus you must go to the last two chapters of the book of Revelation. There we will see that the LORD God describes Himself as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

Then in the next chapter the Lord Jesus says that He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

John certainly understood that He who said "I come quickly" was the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by his words that follow:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (Rev.22:20).​

These are the very last words found in the Bible and that stresses their importance. We are to KNOW that the Lord Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. And by knowing that we can know without any doubt that He is indeed God. And while He walked the earth the Lord Jesus gave a stern warning to those who deny His identity as God who is from above:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).​

As I was saying though Jerry, if you read the first verse of the book of Revelation then you will know who all the book of revelation comes from. It clearly says that Jesus received his revelation from God. So our Lord Jesus was speaking to John, what the father gave him to speak through revelation.

Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

By the way, you quoted John 8 regarding Christ Jesus not being of this world. But he also said this in John 17 about those who belong to him

John 17

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

So those who belong to Christ are not of this world either. We live in it, but we shouldn't be a part of it. Those born of God live by his will, and not the ways of the world.

 

[Lon]

Well no, because it says that God exalted Christ Jesus because of his obedience unto death. So for God to exalt our Lord Jesus because of his obedience, then God has to be his God too

While in the flesh, God was His God AND He was God. John 1:1 says so. I showed you that. No NWT can account for a word for word translation.

 

[beameup]

In the scriptures you have quoted here, it says that God highly exalted Jesus, because of his obedience to him. This itself shows us that God is the God of Christ Jesus too! Why would God need to exalt Jesus because of his obedience (which was unto death), if Jesus was God?

Because God the Son became a man??? :duh:

 

[marhig]

While in the flesh, God was His God AND He was God. John 1:1 says so. I showed you that. No NWT can account for a word for word translation.

Everything that Jesus spoke came from the father, he only ever spoke what God gave him to speak. Thus he was God's word made flesh. Because he didn't speak anything of himself.

Here are 3 separate verses from John 17 that show us that our Lord Jesus spoke God's word and not his own.

John 17:8

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

17:14

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:17

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

And Christ Jesus clearly says that he speaks not of himself (below) and that his doctrine is of God and not his.

John 7:16

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


It's the word of God in Christ Jesus, because God was in him, and Christ Jesus was in the fullness of God bodily because there was no sin in him, he was in the express image of God. And God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. But Jesus isn't God. He is the son of God. And there is only one true God, and he is the father, and Jesus tells us this himself too! I'm not making things up Lon, I'm quoting scripture and quoting Jesus himself

The following verses show us that God is the God of Christ Jesus. And that it is the father who is God Almighty, and Jesus is his Christ and his beloved son. Some are Jesus' own words.

Life eternal is this to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father.I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. (John 20:17 KJV)


Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelation 3)


And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.(John 14:28 KJV)

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)

So what should i do? Just not believe all those verses that clearly show us that that the father is God Almighty and that he is also the God and head of Christ?

 

[marhig]

Because God the Son became a man??? :duh:

Show me where it mentions God the son in the Bible?

 

[marhig]

Because God the Son became a man??? :duh:

I've just thought, if Jesus was God before he came to earth, why did God highly exalt him because he was obedient unto death?

Surely if Jesus Christ was God before he came into flesh, then God would have no need to exalt him because Jesus would have been God already beforehand, before he obeyed God unto his death?

 

[CherubRam]

While in the flesh, God was His God AND He was God. John 1:1 says so. I showed you that. No NWT can account for a word for word translation.

John 1:1
Greek:
en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ho theos kai theos en ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) en (was) ho (the) logos (word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (word) en (was) pos (toward or with) ho (this is actually a special definite article "the" meaning the one and only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek.) Theos (god) kai (and) theos (god) en (was) ho (the) logos (word.)

So, taking away the Greek we have:
In beginning was Word and the Word was with the (one or only) Divine Eternal and divine was the Word

But we are missing some indefinite articles (as Greek does not have such tools). We need an indefinite article where the definite article does not appear, thus giving the rendering:
In a beginning was the Word. And Word was with the (one or only) Divine Eternal. And a divine was the Word.

This would be a proper literal translation.

Why does the Greek make a separation between this word that was "a" divine and THE Divine Eternal? Why do translators omit the indefinite articles when translating to English? Why do they drop off the definite article (the only) before Divine Eternal?

I'm pointing out that heavy bias has gone into our typical translations of this passage. The bias has nothing to do with rendering the text in a proper translational manner, but rather dogma and the Trinitarian theology have swayed the translation to read as it does in New Testament bibles.

 

[Lon]

Everything that Jesus spoke came from the father, he only ever spoke what God gave him to speak. Thus he was God's word made flesh. Because he didn't speak anything of himself.

Hence "Tri-" and "-une"

Here are 3 separate verses from John 17 that show us that our Lord Jesus spoke God's word and not his own.

John 17:8

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

17:14

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:17

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

And Christ Jesus clearly says that he speaks not of himself (below) and that his doctrine is of God and not his.

John 7:16

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Realize this 'makes' them -une, the same. If they both spoke something different, your God/god theory would work. Because Jesus ONLY spoke what His Father also spoke, they are One. I realize JW's do not think like we do, but try to at least see your same verses through our eyes. We are about almost 600 to every Arian. Of course of that 600 not all know the Lord, but you have to at least understand by the numbers, I don't believe God is in the business of losing those who trust in Him. Hebrews 12:4ff "He disciplines those He loves." He doesn't reject 600. I don't think I can shake you loose from being a JW. I might perhaps get you to think a bit outside of your box.

It's the word of God in Christ Jesus, because God was in him, and Christ Jesus was in the fullness of God bodily because there was no sin in him. And God was in Christ reconciling the world into himself. But Jesus isn't God. He is the son of God. And there is only one true God, and he is the father, add Jesus tells us this himself too! I'm not making things up Lon, I'm quitting I scripture and quoting Jesus himself

John 1:1 is clear "With God/was God." You are a JW. For every one of you, 600 of us see this scripture exactly this way. Out of 600, the Lord will not turn those who trust Him away. I can only give you food for thought. Only God changes minds or ever will change minds.

The following verses show us that God is the God of Christ Jesus. And that it is the father who is God Almighty, and Jesus is his Christ and his beloved son.

Life eternal is this to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father.I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. (John 20:17 KJV)


Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelation 3)


And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.(John 14:28 KJV)

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)

So what should i do? Just not believe all those verses that clearly show us that that the father is God Almighty and that he is also the God and head of Christ?

In the flesh, Jesus had a God. The incarnation is something truly unique and not explainable by mere humans. JW's disagree. I am both Tri- and -une. You 'describe' a triune view by scriptures, when you emphasize more than on being.

Modalists believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Father. Unit-Arians believe the Lord Jesus Christ was a created being (much as Mormons do), and that He was 'first-born' of many brothers/sisters.

For a Tri- -une believer, we believe you, then them and so believe you both ignore each other's scriptures. We believe it all. John 1:1, is the call to believe both "was God" -Une and "with God" -Tri.

 

[Lon]

John 1:1
Greek:
en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ho theos kai theos en ho logos

.

:nono: I already gave it. The definite article is given in this sentence and the next. After, "Him" outos, masculine pronoun is given. "a" is not a 'Him" but an"it." We can do this till the cows come home, but I can read Greek and do this in seconds. You'll have to run to books and websites for hours-until-the-cows come home and ALL by second-hand information for you. For me? Directly from reading the language. -Lon

 

[marhig]

Hence "Tri-" and "-une"

Realize this 'makes' them -une, the same. If they both spoke something different, your God/god theory would work. Because Jesus ONLY spoke what His Father also spoke, they are One. I realize JW's do not think like we do, but try to at least see your same verses through our eyes. We are about almost 600 to every Arian. Of course of that 600 not all know the Lord, but you have to at least understand by the numbers, I don't believe God is in the business of losing those who trust in Him. Hebrews 12:4ff "He disciplines those He loves." He doesn't reject 600. I don't think I can shake you loose from being a JW. I might perhaps get you to think a bit outside of your box.




John 1:1 is clear "With God/was God." You are a JW. For every one of you, 600 of us see this scripture exactly this way. Out of 600, the Lord will not turn those who trust Him away. I can only give you food for thought. Only God changes minds or ever will change minds.



In the flesh, Jesus had a God. The incarnation is something truly unique and not explainable by mere humans. JW's disagree. I am both Tri- and -une. You 'describe' a triune view by scriptures, when you emphasize more than on being.

Modalists believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Father. Unit-Arians believe the Lord Jesus Christ was a created being (much as Mormons do), and that He was 'first-born' of many brothers/sisters.

For a Tri- -une believer, we believe you, then them and so believe you both ignore each other's scriptures. We believe it all. John 1:1, is the call to believe both "was God" -Une and "with God" -Tri.

I'm sorry Lon, but I don't agree with you. Those verses are clear. As our Lord Jesus said, the father is the only true God, and he is the God, father and head of Christ Jesus.

There is no such thing as a triune God, this is doctrine made up by man. It is not in the Bible. And we are not taught anywhere in the Bible that we must believe that Jesus is God, but that we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and I do. And this is what we are taught to believe, that Jesus Christ is the son of God, believe in the word and in the gospel, and we are to keep our faith in God and Christ and I do!

Nowhere in the Bible are we told that we have to believe that Jesus is God to be saved. So anyone saying this are teaching a false doctrine!

 

[beameup]

Show me where it mentions God the son in the Bible?

The Second Person of the Godhead goes by several identities in the Old Testament,
where He always appears in human "form" and is identified as YHWH and often receives worship.

 

[marhig]

The Second Person of the Godhead goes by several identities in the Old Testament,
where He always appears in human "form" and is identified as YHWH and often receives worship.

You talked to me like an idiot because I don't believe that Jesus is God the son, yet God the son isn't mentioned once in the Bible. Not once! I believe that God would not have left something so important out. If it's not there, then it's not the truth. And there is no God the son and no trinity, these are false man made teachings. It's clear from the scriptures. That there is but one God, and he is the father, and he is also the God as father of Christ Jesus.

And those who truly follow Jesus, live by the will of the father, as he did himself. Because the father is God!

 

[beameup]

I've just thought, if Jesus was God before he came to earth, why did God highly exalt him because he was obedient unto death?

Surely if Jesus Christ was God before he came into flesh, then God would have no need to exalt him because Jesus would have been God already beforehand, before he obeyed God unto his death?

As God-man, Jesus was elevated in glory by dying for mankind, thus enabling man to be elevated to fellowship with the eternal creator.
Perhaps you are "thinking" too much rather than exercising faith and believing. "Human logic" won't get you very far in dealing with an eternal God.

 

[marhig]

As God-man, Jesus was elevated in glory by dying for mankind, thus enabling man to be elevated to fellowship with the eternal creator.
Perhaps you are "thinking" too much rather than exercising faith and believing. "Human logic" won't get you very far in dealing with an eternal God.

Um no, if Jesus was God before he became a man, then we there would have been no need for Christ Jesus to have been exalted by God. As he would have been God already!

 

[beameup]

You talked to me like an idiot because I don't believe that Jesus is God the son, yet God the son isn't mentioned once in the Bible.

Liar. The term Son of God is mentioned many times in the New Testament.
"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." - Daniel 3:25

 

[Lon]

I'm sorry Lon, but I don't agree with you.

Well, me and 599 others to each of you. I get that.

Those verses are clear.

All scripture is clear. The more we read it faithfully, the better. Without the WT scripture studies would be better yet.

As our Lord Jesus said, the father is the only true God, and he is the God, father and head of Christ Jesus.

Familiar with CARM?

I've covered John 17:3 from my perspective in thread as well. The Lord Jesus Christ, in the flesh, had a God. I agreed. That is why I'm tri- AND -une. You are just one, Modalists are the other.

There is no such thing as a triune God, this is doctrine made up by man.

You can say it as much as you like. This is a 'triune' website. We outnumber you 600 to one. Kind of odd for something that supposedly doesn't exist. You are reading to me right out the JW handbook. I've seen this a few dozen times. What is the point? Simply information-dumping?

It is not in the Bible.

Forget the word: It is the expression of John 1:1 and that certainly is in the Bible.

And we are not taught anywhere in the Bible that we must believe that Jesus is God, but that we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and I do. And this is what we are taught to believe, that Jesus Christ is the son of God, believe in the word and in the gospel, and we are to keep our faith in God and Christ and I do!

I don't want to be the judge. We are told to honor the Son 'just as' we honor the Father. If you don't want to follow His direction, it has not to do with me. You are responsible for your own obedience or disobedience. Be very sure. Psalm 2:12 for me. We both have to follow what we believe scripture is commanding and will respectively stand before our Maker because of it.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told that we have to believe that Jesus is God to be saved. So anyone saying this are teaching a false doctrine!

John 5:23 It is a direction. Whether one follows it or not, is between them and their God. -Lon

 

[marhig]

Liar. The term Son of God is mentioned many times in the New Testament.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. - Daniel 3:25

Why do you twist my words, I never said anything about son of God I said God the son. And God the son isn't in the Bible.

You call me a liar? Show me where those words God the son are in the Bible? Not the son of God, I believe that Jesus is the son of God.

 

[beameup]

Um no, if Jesus was God before he became a man, then we there would have been no need for Christ Jesus to have been exalted by God. As he would have been God already!

He became a MAN in the womb of Mary and was born in Bethlehem. As God, He joined Himself eternally to MAN. In other words, God voluntarily and eternally changed Himself by entering the world through the birth-canal of a woman.
Pretty simple, straight-forward, and fully described in the Bible. Perhaps the Bible is just not for you.
BTW, it's called the hypostatic union and it's doctrinal dogma from the resurrection onward.