Are you ridiculing me? Am I not allowed to reiterate?
Jesus Christ is God's Predestinated, Elected Man
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Are you ridiculing me? Am I not allowed to reiterate?
AMR, am I imagining things or are you being a little bit on the "Passive aggressive" side of the street?
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Are you actually following this? Robert specifically calls out those that disagree with him:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestinated-Elected-Man&p=4633209#post4633209
On the surface it appears Robert wants to discuss something. Yet when he gets responses his idea of "discussion" is mere assertion and no actual engagement.
How can anyone who believes what Robert believes not be the object of concern? Do you agree with all that Robert believes? Yes? No? Please review Robert's own words on matters of the faith:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162
He is dangerous to any Christian believer's system of belief, GM. How do you not see this after reviewing Robert's heterodoxies?
AMR
As I have mentioned before, I have a problem with a few of Pate's interpretations. However, he does seem to follow the Grace Gospel for the most part. Nobody agrees 100% of what others believe. We all have our own views, as well. He preaches man's free will, he believes that man must place his faith in Christ as their Savior and he doesn't follow after a "works based belief system." Personally, I believe that the entire Bible is inspired by God, even though men wrote it, those men were guided by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the inspired, written word of God. One must not ignore that fact. Pate seemed to lack some discernment in that thread you pointed me to. In that, I must disagree with him.
To everything you're born to do
Unregenerates reboots over and over like their software isn't written for them to go further. They are called loopers
beloved57
Well-known member
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Not at all, GM, on both accounts.
This is having a discussion, as you have requested. You appeal to Scripture to support your view of free will, and I provided a response (last December) that does not agree with your unsupported opinion. I do not dispute that man has free will, if by that we mean the ability to choose according to one's inclinations at the time one so chooses. What is your definition of "free will"?
The lament over Jerusalem by our Lord is not a demonstration of man's free will at all. If you want to have a discussion on the passage, I have provided a proper exegetical response for discussion. You are free to interact with it and provide your own exegesis and I will discuss it with you. If all we are going to do is state opinions without support, then that is not a discussion, only an assertion. I am trying to meet you on your own terms here.
AMR
He is BOUND to sin against his Maker, bondage is not free
Sure
Wheat is wheat
Doves are doves
Sheeps are sheeps
children of God are children of God
*
Tares are tares
Vipers are vipers
Goats are goats
Children of the devil are children of the devil.
People can moan as much as they like but God ain't gunna save the devil's crowd
So, you believe that sinners (The devils crowd) cannot be saved? If you say, "yes" then, none of us can be saved? We start out as lost sinners then, we hear the Gospel and place our faith in Christ as our Savior.
My definition of "Free-Will" is, the ability to choose to place ones faith in Christ as ones Savior, after hearing the Gospel. I believe the Holy Spirit inspires ALL men to be saved. I believe that, because of free will some will choose to place their faith in Christ and some will reject it. Salvation is a Spiritual process. One must, hear the Grace Gospel (Paul's Gospel) and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. The Holy Spirit then, seals and indwells the new believer, and baptizes (not by water) the believer into the Body of Christ. At that same time, they receive the righteousness of Christ and are guaranteed eternal life. This is one example of free-will. We also have the free-will to choose who to marry, where to work, what to eat, where to live, etc. Man was not created as a "robot/puppet." God desires that ALL mankind will choose to place their faith in Christ as their Savior.
Calvinists believe that God "chose" who He would save before the foundation of the world. Some Calvinists believe God created Sin and He makes ALL our choices for us. Because, God chose who He would save, logically speaking, He chose the rest for eternal damnation. I have heard Calvinists claim that, one must be "regenerated" before they receive "Saving Faith." That's placing the cart before the horse.
The Old Testament is filled with examples of free-will choice. How many times did God's chosen people walk away from Him and cling to idols? That was their choice. God had patience with them however. David chose to sin against God and have Uriah killed and took for himself, Bathsheba. That was a choice that David made. God didn't will that to happen. God doesn't will us to sin.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
How does the Holy Spirit inspire all to be saved?
Why is it you made the right choice and your neighbor did not?
Let's just you and I discuss things. I think my views represent the Calvinistic majority view, so speaking about what fringe elements say is going to be distracting. I assume your position is something along the lines of God's looking ahead into the future, seeing the fall of Adam, purposing Our Lord's sacrifice, and seeing who would believe and who would not by their own free will. Is that about right?
Can we table the other elements in your post, regeneration preceding faith, for now?
AMR
Last edited:
When I was about eight years old, A few of my friends and myself were playing out side. The friends suggested we go into a store and steal some candy. They really wanted to commit thievery and were ready to do so. I told them that it wasn't a good idea and refused to play apart in their scheme. Why is it that three kids were willing and able to "choose" to rob the store and I "chose" not to? Was it because I was a Christian? The answer would be, absolutely not. My family weren't a church going group. Was it because I had a stronger conscience? I don't believe so. My opinion is, they "chose" to steal and I didn't. We all have a God given free-will. Ready for your opinion.
God knows the beginning to the end of everything. We can use the book of Revelation to prove that. John saw the final judgement and all that occurred at that point. God allowed John to see that period of time sometime in the future. So, if John was able to see the final judgment, surely God has knowledge of it as well. Common sense applies here.
Is God privy to who will and who will not place their faith in His Son? Yes. However, He doesn't ordain the salvation of anyone. He created man with a free-will. Does God want everyone to choose His Son as their Savior? Yes. Will all men make that choice? No. God will not interfere with mans free-will choice when it comes to salvation and eternal life.
Did God "force" the House of Israel to not choose to follow after their idols at times?
Dialogos
Well-known member
Nope, which is why I'm not. I think everything that can be said between the two of us has been said. Sometimes you just get to a point in a conversation when all you are doing is going over and over well traveled ground.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to employ that metaphor. Pate doesn't reject Jesus. He has some very scary theological conclusions and I'm more than a little concerned about his willingness to change bible verses if they don't read like he wants them to read but I consider Pate a person believes the core of the gospel (1 Cor 15 stuff).GM said:
I don't think that responding to posts that make false claims about Calvinism can reasonably be considered attacking Pate. If I were to start a thread critiquing MAD I can pretty well count on MAD folks responding, can't I?GM said:
Nope.GM said:
You, Pate and others have a stick in your craw about Calvinism. You regularly show up to voice your opinion. Does that mean you find Calvinists dangerous to your belief system?
:think:
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Thanks for this response, GM.
Is not the will the mind choosing? So, you chose to not steal. You were not a Christian, per your own words. You chose not to steal not because it was an offense to God and you wanted to glorify Him by your obedience, but for inclinations from within you, perhaps upbringing, circumstances, fear, etc. In other words, as a non-believer, whatever choices you were making, they were all for the wrong motives, yet that is all that you could do, sin more or sin less with every breath you drew. Such are the all the acts of the non-believer who walks the old lady across the road, or gives to charity, or chooses not to commit the big sins, yet he or she is always disposed to sin, never able not to not sin, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. In other words, the non-believers motives that lie behind all their thoughts, words, and deeds are never directed Godward.
In Romans 1 Paul explains the state of the non-believer more clearly than in any other place in Scripture, reminding us that the non-believer suppresses the plainly revealed truth about God, refuses to glorify, or worship, God as God, and declines to be thankful to God. Like an untended garden, when we are left to ourselves the bad always chokes out the good, because that is the inclination of our fallen natures. As Paul rightly notes in Romans 1, the non-believer hates God.
If we can come back to the question, when you heard the Good News, how was it that you chose rightly? Could you have chosen wrongly? If so, why did you not choose otherwise?
AMR
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
We are in agreement, GM. Why do you think God knows what will happen?
AMR