JEFFERSON's AVATAR

[Stripe]

OK so as far as you're concerned there can be no mitigating circumstances at all, never, it's simply murder. Be it severe congenital dysfunction or that the medical prognosis for the woman is likely to be death. For you then whatever the situation abortion is dogmatically always murder.

Correct. There is never a reason to stop delivering a child, whatever her problems, and kill her.

If you have a medical crisis it might be necessary to deliver the child, but it is never necessary to intentionally kill her.

However as far as I'm concerned there are many circumstances such as rape, and the above, when I'd support abortion.

Why? Why would you want to kill a person because her father was a rapist?

At least then the woman could possibly have a child by someone she loved and a child too that would in turn be wanted and loved, not rejected.

So you think it's OK to murder people who might be rejected?

This you would seem to deny her in order to cling to your dogmatic belief that abortion can never be justified.

Yeah, dude, in order to deny a person the ability to murder her child one is forced to deny that person the right to murder her child.

You gotta think before you start typing. :thumb:

I think that is heartless, cruel and plain wrong btw.

To not allow people to murder? Why?

Fortunately doctors and others are rather less dogmatic than you are.

You have a lot of people on your side who are not dogmatic that murder is wrong. :idunno:

 

[alwight]

You have a lot of people on your side who are not dogmatic that murder is wrong. :idunno:

I realise probably nothing I could ever say would be likely to change anything about the way you think of abortion Stripe.
But afaic honest, rational and well intended motives, even if they were in the end wrong or misguided is never murder.
Claiming all abortion is murder is simply emotive nonsense, a bit like Jefferson's avatar.

 

[Stripe]

I realise probably nothing I could ever say would be likely to change anything about the way you think of abortion Stripe. But afaic honest, rational and well intended motives, even if they were in the end wrong or misguided is never murder. Claiming all abortion is murder is simply emotive nonsense, a bit like Jefferson's avatar.

I notice you have no reasoned responses to relevant questions. :think:

You say a rapist's child can be killed. Why do you think it's OK that a rapist's child can be murdered?

 

[alwight]

I notice you have no reasoned responses to relevant questions. :think:

You say a rapist's child can be killed. Why do you think it's OK that a rapist's child can be murdered?

Since you asked so nicely.
Aborted, yes I do, so shoot me, I don't particularly like the idea much but while the foetus is still a small cluster of cells, and certainly nothing like Jefferson's avatar, I see nothing very wrong in that at all to consider the best long term interests of the woman.

 

[Stripe]

Yes I do, so shoot me, I don't particularly like the idea much but while the foetus is still a small cluster of cells, and certainly nothing like Jefferson's avatar, I see nothing very wrong in that at all to consider the best long term interests of the woman.

So, size makes a big difference to you?

How does that work? Is there some sort of scale that determines how bad a murder is depending on the size of the child? Does this only pertain to rapist's children or are you now talking about all children? Is it OK to murder any child as long as she is small enough? At what size does intentionally killing a child become murder? Why do you hold this size as particularly relevant?

 

[alwight]

So, size makes a big difference to you?

Yes.

How does that work? Is there some sort of scale that determines how bad a murder is depending on the size of the child? Does this only pertain to rapist's children or are you now talking about all children? Is it OK to murder any child as long as she is small enough? At what size does intentionally killing a child become murder? Why do you hold this size as particularly relevant?

Sorry but I don't think of a small cluster of cells as a child.

I don't know about you, but if my wife had been raped, apart from everything else, there is absolutely no way that I for one would be going to feel particularly good about the developing foetus, let alone her going through all the pains of labour or then raising it, when it should have been mine. For her it gets even worse, the resulting child would be a constant reminder of rape, never to be forgotten.

Perhaps for you though it would be very different, even later when you knew that an early abortion could have perhaps prevented the break down of your marriage, as long as your dogmatic principals remained intact? lain:

 

[Granite]

It's desensitizing. Whatever. Nothing anyone says about will make any difference. Except maybe to have folks who approve of it dig their heels in more.

There was a thread about it a while back.

Yeah, I remember. I don't have much interest in rehashing what we all said before.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes, I can personally think of several instances that, with hindsight perhaps, abortion would have been very justified indeed. :wave2:

Perhaps you would like to give a list then?

 

[Rusha]

Yes.


Sorry but I don't think of a small cluster of cells as a child.

I don't know about you, but if my wife had been raped, apart from everything else, there is absolutely no way that I for one would be going to feel particularly good about the developing foetus, let alone her going through all the pains of labour or then raising it, when it should have been mine. For her it gets even worse, the resulting child would be a constant reminder of rape, never to be forgotten.

Perhaps for you though it would be very different, even later when you knew that an early abortion could have perhaps prevented the break down of your marriage, as long as your dogmatic principals remained intact? lain:

I am sorry about your wife's rape. No woman should ever be the victim of such violence.

In regards to abortion for reasons of rape, however, it still does not make any sense to punish the unborn baby for the actions of his/her father. IF it isn't within the mother's (or your capacity) to love that innocent child, there is the option of adoption.

 

[alwight]

I am sorry about your wife's rape. No woman should ever be the victim of such violence.

No you have misread me, it was hypothetical (If..), but the point still stands.

In regards to abortion for reasons of rape, however, it still does not make any sense to punish the unborn baby for the actions of his/her father. IF it isn't within the mother's (or your capacity) to love that innocent child, there is the option of adoption.

Firstly I was talking about a small cluster of cells not as per Jefferson's avatar, I wasn't in any way advocating a near full term abortion for this case.

I see no reason for a (hypothetically) raped wife to have to go through a 9 month term in order to produce a rapist's child. She could have spent the same time in producing her husbands child that they would both hopefully have wanted and will love, a child that will not possibly ruin their lives.

I don't know what kind of life the rapist's child would have had but that isn't really the point afaic.
The most realistic caring and pragmatic course for this particular scenario for me at least is clear, that is to allow and yes even encourage the option to abort. If that goes against some people's sensibilities here then sorry but I see no reason to totally blight a married couple's lives any further by prolonging the pain for probably the rest of their lives.

To simply reject all abortion or call it murder in all cases is very wrong, because every case deserves to be honestly judged individually without dogmatic or religious prejudice.

But I do find it strange that some here want gays executed but a small cluster of cells is sacred, under no circumstances whatsoever must it be aborted. It doesn't seem to matter whatever the reasons or circumstances that exist, for dogmatic reasons alone abortion is for them always murder. They are hypocrites.

 

[Rusha]

No you have misread me, it was hypothetical (If..), but the point still stands.

Firstly I was talking about a small cluster of cells not as per Jefferson's avatar, I wasn't in any way advocating a near full term abortion for this case.

I realize this, but don't see a major significance.

I see no reason for a (hypothetically) raped wife to have to go through a 9 month term in order to produce a rapist's child. She could have spent the same time in producing her husbands child that they would both hopefully have wanted and will love.

While I understand the situation would be horrific, I still do not understand anyone seeing an innocent, unborn baby is nothing more than a monster spawned by their rapist.

While I would personally advocate that rapists be strung up and executed via the death penalty, I do NOT understand why anyone would feel the innocent child deserves to be executed.

IF Susan Smith were to become preggers while in prison and gives birth to a child, should the child have his/her life extinguished because of the bad acts of their mother?

THAT is exactly how I feel about using abortion for babies conceived out of rape. We can still support rape victims and THEIR child without punishing another innocent person (the unborn child) via abortion.

 

[alwight]

Perhaps you would like to give a list then?

I was actually thinking of you Lighthose, oh and probably one or two others here as well, when I wrote that that, to be honest.

 

[Stripe]

Yes.

And how does condoning the killing of people based on size differentiate you from killing people based on skin colour or religion?

Sorry but I don't think of a small cluster of cells as a child.

How many clusters of cells does it take for you to recognise a person? Why should we accept your standard of what is and what is not a person? Is personhood a gradational thing? Is it the more cells you have the more of a person you are? What other factors determine personhood other than size? Is this only for the offspring of rapists or do you recognise the right for any person of deficient size to be murdered?

I don't know about you, but if my wife had been raped, apart from everything else, there is absolutely no way that I for one would be going to feel particularly good about the developing foetus, let alone her going through all the pains of labour or then raising it, when it should have been mine. For her it gets even worse, the resulting child would be a constant reminder of rape, never to be forgotten.

So, because you don't feel good .. murder the child? lain:

Perhaps for you though it would be very different, even later when you knew that an early abortion could have perhaps prevented the break down of your marriage, as long as your dogmatic principals remained intact? lain:

So because my marriage might end in tears, murder the child?

 

[alwight]

I realize this, but don't see a major significance.

For me the major difference is that hopefully a married couple will be able to rebuild their lives.

While I understand the situation would be horrific, I still do not understand anyone seeing an innocent, unborn baby is nothing more than a monster spawned by their rapist.

Well I'm sorry but I think that existing people with established lives have to be considered above the potential life of a small cluster of cells. Also weigh it against the potential life that they could still produce between them, without the rapist's interfering sperm.

While I would personally advocate that rapists be strung up and executed via the death penalty, I do NOT understand why anyone would feel the innocent child deserves to be executed.

I see a small cluster of cells as a potential life, not an innocent child, and I never suggested there was any ideal solution here, only a least worst option.

IF Susan Smith were to become preggers while in prison and gives birth to a child, should the child have his/her life extinguished because of the bad acts of their mother?

Every case must be judged on its merits not simply by dogma. I can't really comment any more without having all the details.

THAT is exactly how I feel about using abortion for babies conceived out of rape. We can still support rape victims and THEIR child without punishing another innocent person (the unborn child) via abortion.

I'm not saying that abortion is always the right or best option in all cases, only that it is an option, and those that use it do not deserve to be vilified or outcast.

 

[Rusha]

Well I'm sorry but I think that existing people with established lives have to be considered above the potential life of a small cluster of cells. Also weigh it against the potential life that they could still produce between them, without the rapist's interfering sperm.

I see a small cluster of cells as a potential life, not an innocent child, and I never suggested there was any ideal solution here, only a least worst option.

Every case must be judged on its merits not simply by dogma. I can't really comment any more without having all the details.

I'm not saying that abortion is always the right or best option in all cases, only that it is an option, and those that use it do not deserve to be vilified or outcast.

In regards to everything you stated, I have a few questions for you:

Women have been giving birth to babies for YEARS. Is it possible for a mother to give birth to a baby and both go on live their lives?

Or does giving birth to a child mean a woman has to die?

THIS is the crux of the issue with me. IF the mother gives birth, there are two lives that go on to exist and flourish.

IF a mother aborts, only one life goes on to exist.

We are not even speaking of sacrificing one life over the other ... so what possible and logical reason can exist to allow AOD?

 

[Lighthouse]

I was actually thinking of you Lighthose, oh and probably one or two others here as well, when I wrote that that, to be honest.

No duh, Dick Tracy.

 

[alwight]

First of all Stripe I will try to answer you honestly as I can, but if you start altering my quotes then I won’t feel any need to take you too seriously.

Yes.

And how does condoning the killing of people based on size differentiate you from killing people based on skin colour or religion?

That’s a bit of a loaded question, and unfair of you, never mind the race card. Will you be bringing in Hitler and Pol Pot at some point?

I never claimed any easy solutions were available just an atempt at a least worst one perhaps.

A foetus is not a viable life form without the mother’s body for the most part so if it is removed from her body it dies there is no actual intent to kill it though, but sure, death is what is expected.

However it does rather depend on when you consider a foetus is large and developed enough to actually be called a person. Is every egg or sperm a potential person, where exactly do you start?

Every Sperm is Sacred?

Sorry but I don't think of a small cluster of cells as a child.

How many clusters of cells does it take for you to recognise a person? Why should we accept your standard of what is and what is not a person? Is personhood a gradational thing? Is it the more cells you have the more of a person you are? What other factors determine personhood other than size? Is this only for the offspring of rapists or do you recognise the right for any person of deficient size to be murdered?

The devil is in the detail I will grant you. You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine.
My opinion is that until the baby is born and can react with the world and begin to develop mental processes and memories, there really isn’t a person there at all. You may not agree I suspect.

I don't know about you, but if my wife had been raped, apart from everything else, there is absolutely no way that I for one would be going to feel particularly good about the developing foetus, let alone her going through all the pains of labour or then raising it, when it should have been mine. For her it gets even worse, the resulting child would be a constant reminder of rape, never to be forgotten.

So, because you don't feel good .. murder the child? lain:

Someone being raped is a bit more than simply “not feeling well”, and then you would make sure they could never forget it for the rest of their lives, nice one Stripe..
BTW what about a child that could have been without the cuckoo in the nest?
And at what point is a cluster of cells a person anyway?

So because my marriage might end in tears, murder the child?

I still see a small cluster of cells Stripe, no need to big it up, and certainly not Jefferson’s airplane… err I mean avatar.

 

[alwight]

In regards to everything you stated, I have a few questions for you:

OK

Women have been giving birth to babies for YEARS. Is it possible for a mother to give birth to a baby and both go on live their lives?

You don't need me to answer that.

Or does giving birth to a child mean a woman has to die?

Or that. :liberals:

THIS is the crux of the issue with me. IF the mother gives birth, there are two lives that go on to exist and flourish.

IF a mother aborts, only one life goes on to exist.

We are not even speaking of sacrificing one life over the other ... so what possible and logical reason can exist to allow AOD?

I think many would agree with you and that perhaps somehow physically at least there could be two lives instead of one. Perhaps some could cope with it better than others and all that would have to be factored in. I am certainly not advocating compulsory abortion or AOD, just that the option is available.

Do the two lives go their separate ways is that fair?

But I happen to think there is that something called "quality of life", so much so that for many there is no quality in life only suffering to the point that they would perhaps rather be dead. If I were the son of a rapist would I feel good about myself? Would the raped mother feel good about herself with the constant reminder?

I think we should try to create as good a quality of life as possible and not simply exist.
:e4e:

 

[Stripe]

That’s a bit of a loaded question, and unfair of you, never mind the race card. Will you be bringing in Hitler and Pol Pot at some point?

Of course it's loaded .. you said "Yes" when asked if size was relevant to who should be considered a person. Do you have an answer to the loaded question? How is determining personhood based on size significantly different from determining it based on religion or skin colour?

I never claimed any easy solutions were available just an atempt at a least worst one perhaps.

The least worst one is that you do not kill your kids. You do realise that's a valid option, right?

A foetus is not a viable life form without the mother’s body for the most part so if it is removed from her body it dies there is no actual intent to kill it though, but sure, death is what is expected.

Abortion is the intent to kill the child. You cannot have an abortion for rape without the intent to kill the child.

You could deliver a child without the intent that she die.

However it does rather depend on when you consider a foetus is large and developed enough to actually be called a person. Is every egg or sperm a potential person, where exactly do you start?

You start at conception. That is when a new person is created.

The devil is in the detail I will grant you. You are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. : )

Actually, you're not entitled to your opinion. It will be taken from you sooner or later. Better to give it up now while you can still choose for yourself. :up:

My opinion is that until the baby is born and can react with the world and begin to develop mental processes and memories, there really isn’t a person there at all. You may not agree I suspect.

Is the inside of a woman not part of the world? Can a child not develop there?

Someone being raped is a bit more than simply “not feeling well”, and then you would make sure they could never forget it for the rest of their lives, nice one Stripe..

It'd be nice if you could not misrepresent what I say. :thumb:

BTW what about a child that could have been without the cuckoo in the nest?

What about him?

And at what point is a cluster of cells a person anyway?

You tell us. It's your idea that people poof into existence sometime after conception. :idunno:

I still see a small cluster of cells Stripe, no need to big it up, and certainly not Jefferson’s airplane… err I mean avatar.

What you see does not affect the truth. The truth is that at conception we have a newly created person.

 

[Rusha]

I think many would agree with you and that perhaps somehow physically at least there could be two lives instead of one. Perhaps some could cope with it better than others and all that would have to be factored in. I am certainly not advocating compulsory abortion or AOD, just that the option is available.

Do the two lives go their separate ways is that fair?

Fair by what standard? Fair by the standard that BOTH get to go on with their lives? There is only one option where both do not get to go on with their lives: THAT option is abortion.

But I happen to think there is that something called "quality of life", so much so that for many there is no quality in life only suffering to the point that they would perhaps rather be dead.

There can only be quality of life IF the unborn are allowed to live. How does killing off the unborn make their life better?

If I were the son of a rapist would I feel good about myself?

I guess it would depend on you and those you are surrounded by. How do *you* feel about a woman who has been victimized by rape and the child who was produced from that rape?

I am pretty sure that most people here would feel the same way I do ... that the mother was a victim and the baby is innocent and precious. The mode of conception does not change how valuable a person is.

I would also question why a parent and those close to a parent are unable to let the child know they are loved. Children who are raised to value themselves and others should never feel badly about themselves.

Would the raped mother feel good about herself with the constant reminder?

I guess it would depend on the woman and how she values and deals with such trying situations in her life. Would you feel bad about such a woman? If someone degraded your wife/sister/mother/daughter or a close friend for being rape victim, how would you respond.

As for me, I certainly wouldn't say "hey, he's right! You are scum and so is the child you produced." How would you respond?

I think we should try to create as good a quality of life as possible and not simply exist.
:e4e:

Which is impossible for a child who is not ALLOWED to exist. :think: