This boils down to two things: the effectiveness of this tactic, which is questionable, and the exploitation (again) of the murder victims, which for me just clinches it.
JEFFERSON's AVATAR
- Thread starter OMEGA
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This boils down to two things: the effectiveness of this tactic, which is questionable, and the exploitation (again) of the murder victims, which for me just clinches it.
John Mortimer
New member
Hi elohiym 
I'm for the appropriate and balanced use of free speech & expression; I do also acknowledge the unconditional nature of the moral right to such.
Ok being absolutely serious about this - what can genuinely bring an end to abortion, (and I mean all abortion)?
Is it force? Whether we are talking about law or violence on various levels, the force-based mindset will never achieve the goal of making abortion a thing of the past. Only raising consciousness will do that.
When I see a Christian using an avatar like Jefferson's I get the message from him:
"The abortion issue is a black-and-white issue. Anyone who does not view it in exactly the same way as I do is a monster because either you think like I do or you condone the brutal murder of the unborn."
But real life is not black-and-white. Do the people who take this black-and-white view have a comprehensive knowledge of the circumstances of each and every abortion? No. Yet the avatar basically says, "Circumstances don't come into it...murder is murder."
Yet there are circumstances out of which the evangelical mindset emerges. People can quite reasonably ask questions about why evangelicals will maintain that the genocidal slaughter of certain nations was commanded by - apparently - the same God who commanded, "Thou shalt not kill". And of course there are counter arguments and a whole debate ensues. Now people are quite entitled to debate any issue, but what is the point if it simply turns into "We are absolutely right and you are absolutely wrong!", on both sides? Will this lead to the ending of abortion? The evangelicals seem to think it will if they "win" and gain power, thus being able to force their will upon society. This is an old consciousness that we've seen over and over again throughout history that never brings the righteousness of God to society; if it had done that we would not be where we are now.
The intent of the avatar is to cause anger and outrage and that represents a descent in consciousness, which in turn will ensure that abortion continues whether legally or illegally.
Then you are for free "appropriate" speech zones?
I'm for the appropriate and balanced use of free speech & expression; I do also acknowledge the unconditional nature of the moral right to such.
It's the way in which the image is being used that object to. [more below]
Ok being absolutely serious about this - what can genuinely bring an end to abortion, (and I mean all abortion)?
Is it force? Whether we are talking about law or violence on various levels, the force-based mindset will never achieve the goal of making abortion a thing of the past. Only raising consciousness will do that.
When I see a Christian using an avatar like Jefferson's I get the message from him:
"The abortion issue is a black-and-white issue. Anyone who does not view it in exactly the same way as I do is a monster because either you think like I do or you condone the brutal murder of the unborn."
But real life is not black-and-white. Do the people who take this black-and-white view have a comprehensive knowledge of the circumstances of each and every abortion? No. Yet the avatar basically says, "Circumstances don't come into it...murder is murder."
Yet there are circumstances out of which the evangelical mindset emerges. People can quite reasonably ask questions about why evangelicals will maintain that the genocidal slaughter of certain nations was commanded by - apparently - the same God who commanded, "Thou shalt not kill". And of course there are counter arguments and a whole debate ensues. Now people are quite entitled to debate any issue, but what is the point if it simply turns into "We are absolutely right and you are absolutely wrong!", on both sides? Will this lead to the ending of abortion? The evangelicals seem to think it will if they "win" and gain power, thus being able to force their will upon society. This is an old consciousness that we've seen over and over again throughout history that never brings the righteousness of God to society; if it had done that we would not be where we are now.
The intent of the avatar is to cause anger and outrage and that represents a descent in consciousness, which in turn will ensure that abortion continues whether legally or illegally.
elohiym
Well-known member
Again, no rational argument to support your position regarding Jefferson's avatar.
:squint:
alwight
New member
I didn't think I had expressed any particular postion on whether he should keep it or not other than it was up to him. Personally as an avatar it wouldn't be my choice.
Will it be the usual neg rep instead of answering my questions again? :loser:
If you're honestly teaching them to think for themselves you cannot speculate whether or not they will join you.
Verse?
Also, logic dictates that only those whose womb it is would be His enemies.
Relevance?
You have clearly never understood it.
It's certainly how I came to the belief homosexuality should be a capital crime. When I joined TOL I was on the opposite side of that argument.
I can't see you. Are you pointing to you head?
You will remain lost at sea as long as you refuse to believe the life inside a womb matters to me.
Satanist is an option. And if you know anything about the actual meaning of that word you would understand it fits your stance perfectly. Ask Granite why he chose that label...
Brandon, I don't think Doogie would ever go so far as to claim you don't care about the unborn. What he (and I) are saying is that we disagree with a given tactic, not opposition to abortion.
If the goal is to shock, horrify, and alienate, yes: materials like Jefferson's avatar do an admirable job (although eventually, we numb to displays of this violence; it's part of human nature). But if the purpose is to educate, persuade, and talk reasonably? I'm sorry, but nothing will ever convince me this kind of approach is intended as anything but a shock tactic, pure and simple. And that's exactly what is so wrong with so much of the current pro-life movement.
If the goal is to shock, horrify, and alienate, yes: materials like Jefferson's avatar do an admirable job (although eventually, we numb to displays of this violence; it's part of human nature). But if the purpose is to educate, persuade, and talk reasonably? I'm sorry, but nothing will ever convince me this kind of approach is intended as anything but a shock tactic, pure and simple. And that's exactly what is so wrong with so much of the current pro-life movement.
madman
New member
elohiym
Well-known member
Then the goal of showing holocaust pictures is to "shock, horrify, and alienate?" :think:
Hey don't label everyone that hates your dumb attention seeking avatar as Pro Abort.
There are many graphic images we can use to show truth, that doesn't make them right to show.
I'm happy that you think it's ok to have such an image, it just solidifies in my mind that you're a loon.
Fair play to you, if you have nothing better to do than take your kids to a doctors home and enjoy displaying graphic images to his neighbors then you really need to start enjoying this life more. What a waste.
I take mine to the park and feed the ducks and play on swings. I mean if I thought taking them to an abortion rally was a great way to spend my free time I may as well aborted them myself, ya know to prove a point... I could display their dead carcasses on a stick to highlight the horror of abortion, cos if God can sacrifice his son, it's good enough for me !!
Cos that's what you're doing, you are grandstanding one of those innocent children as a prop... Yeah they didn't ask to be killed but the didn't ask to be printed out either. What if someone was using a picture of one of your wife's miscarriages to make an irrelevant point... wouldn't like it would ya !! wouldn't you be better killing one of your own if you feel so strongly about it. I mean that dead child didn't ask to be a sign did it ? and I know for a fact some of those photos you use are autopsy pics of a "God Abortion" sorry I mean miscarriage.
You're not going to see the hypocrisy or point I'm making here so I await your belligerent reply.
But really you'd do better educating people, or counseling people.. BUT
NO ONE WOULD EVER KNOW HOW PIOUS YOU ARE.
And herein lies the route, PRIDE. To grandstand such images with such righteous indignation says more about you and your faith than it says about abortors.
Indeed it even speaks volumes for the impotence of your God.
Well done, keep it up. The truth is great, the truth is you're nuts.
so what is really bothering you Doogie?
Pro-aborts may, but so far, no one on this thread is discernably pro-choice or has spoken of "hating" your avatar.
Also I think Doogie's last post is right on the money.
USING DEAD BODIES OF BABIES TO MAKE A POINT IN PLACES WHERE THEY ARE NOT NECESSARY
For example... we don't need to see those images here...
Hands up who on TOL is thinking of having an abortion ?
It cracks me up when atheists speak of "truth" and what is "right".
alwight
New member
Can you "ignore" a mod?
Have you ever expressed the same amount of outrage at pro-aborts that you express toward me?
Yup, not many "Pro Aborts" around these parts, I have even worked on research with a local Doctor to educate and support those with tough decisions to make.
Many have decided there is a choice, you see many young women thinking of an abortion believe they have NO CHOICE, it's not about pro choice, they believe it's the only option.
Showing pictures of dead babies is not changing an awfull lot of minds is it ?
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG
This is because you believe you are acting for your God you don't act with your own concience you believe you are doing another's work.
Hmm what motivates me you must ask yourself, am I better than you because I care not about some lolly pop of an afterlife or the blessings of a ghost?
Nice that you dismissed my entire post as an attack, but a reasoned response was not exactly expected.