It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People
- Thread starter northwye
- Start date
Paul says Israel is the root and we the shoot, he goes further and says that the shoot does not sustain the root but the root sustains the shoot.
But YOU say there is no longer any root.
Paul says we are made Co heirs and fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel...but YOU say there is no commonwealth of Israel.
The commonwealth of Israel must surely be the kingdom of God which will be made manifest at the Lord's coming.
They will look upon Him who they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a firstborn son.
They will be saved.
Some Rabbis of Talmudic Judaism say that the "He" in Isaiah 53 is Old Covenant Israel. I have not heard it stated that the root in Romans 11: 16 is Old Covenant Israel. Romans 11: 16 is another scripture that needs to be interpreted by other relevant scripture and not alone by a theology. Theology is able to insert its false doctrines into scripture like Romans 11: 16, which does not say who or what the root is.
Part of the reason for teaching the exact opposite of what the New Testament teaches - sometimes in a subtle and brief way - is that the False Prophets reject the role of the remnant. The remnant is seen in Romans 11: 1-5. And, no all Old Covenant Israel did not reject Jesus Christ. The multitude did and are cut off (Romans 11: 17-20). The remnant accepted Christ, came out of Old Covenant physical Israel and became the beginnings of the New Covenant.
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter” Romans 2:28-29.
The Israel which is chosen of God is the opposite of a Flesh and Blood Israel and is said to be a Spiritual body:
“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”.....But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people I Peter 2:9, 5
The opposite to the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as a people of God is the truth. When the Pharisees told Jesus they were still the chosen people, and they insisted that “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39), their belief was the exact opposite of the truth, as shown by what Jesus then said to them:
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:44).
Romans 9: 6-9 states a New Testament doctrine which is the exact opposite of the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists somehow in spite of Hebrews 10: 9 and other texts.
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8
"Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?" I Corinthians 10: 18
Galatians 3 states a doctrine the opposite of the doctrine that God now decides who is to be saved based upon Flesh and Blood. The inheritance from Abraham became a spiritual one in the New Covenant.
The Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 is the body of Christ – the all Israel of Romans 11: 26 that is saved. But the spirit of anti-Christ in the False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 teach the exact opposite.
The False Prophets lead the organized multitude to accept as truth the exact opposite of the Truth. This does not mean that no one who claims to be of Flesh and Blood Israel, now as Talmudic Judaism, can be saved.
Part of the reason for teaching the exact opposite of what the New Testament teaches - sometimes in a subtle and brief way - is that the False Prophets reject the role of the remnant. The remnant is seen in Romans 11: 1-5. And, no all Old Covenant Israel did not reject Jesus Christ. The multitude did and are cut off (Romans 11: 17-20). The remnant accepted Christ, came out of Old Covenant physical Israel and became the beginnings of the New Covenant.
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter” Romans 2:28-29.
The Israel which is chosen of God is the opposite of a Flesh and Blood Israel and is said to be a Spiritual body:
“Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”.....But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people I Peter 2:9, 5
The opposite to the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as a people of God is the truth. When the Pharisees told Jesus they were still the chosen people, and they insisted that “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39), their belief was the exact opposite of the truth, as shown by what Jesus then said to them:
“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:44).
Romans 9: 6-9 states a New Testament doctrine which is the exact opposite of the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists somehow in spite of Hebrews 10: 9 and other texts.
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 6-8
"Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?" I Corinthians 10: 18
Galatians 3 states a doctrine the opposite of the doctrine that God now decides who is to be saved based upon Flesh and Blood. The inheritance from Abraham became a spiritual one in the New Covenant.
The Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 is the body of Christ – the all Israel of Romans 11: 26 that is saved. But the spirit of anti-Christ in the False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 teach the exact opposite.
The False Prophets lead the organized multitude to accept as truth the exact opposite of the Truth. This does not mean that no one who claims to be of Flesh and Blood Israel, now as Talmudic Judaism, can be saved.
"You are of your father the devil" was applied to a section of the Jews, the leaders....the others were Jesu's sheep who heard His voice and who followed Him...it was out of envy at the throngs of people that the leaders were stirred up, there is no reason to suppose that Christ's opponents were a majority.
They were bullied and whipped up to demand His death but after Pentecost we see once more the masses being added daily to the church.
It was the seed of Isaac who rejected Christ to whom swore an everlasting covenant.
They were bullied and whipped up to demand His death but after Pentecost we see once more the masses being added daily to the church.
It was the seed of Isaac who rejected Christ to whom swore an everlasting covenant.
The False Prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 teach doctrines that are the direct opposites of what is taught in the New Testament. And look in a concordance for the word "deceive." In Matthew 24 the word "deceive is used in verses 4, 5, 11 and 24. And
each time deceive is used it refers to the deception of the False Prophets.
In setting up doctrines that are the direct opposite of those in the New Testament, the False Prophets might have used one of three main historical oppositions to the Gospel of Christ, the Jewish or Judaizer opposition found, for example,in Acts 15 and in Acts 21: 18-21, and dealt with in the letter to the Galatians. The False Prophets used the Judaizer opposition because it is clearer, more easily understood and has more credibility in the churches than the Gnostic or Greek philosophical opposition. Both Gnostic and Greek philosophical opposition to the Gospel are found in the Christianity associated with Alexandria in Egypt.
Here is another example of that direct opposition to the teaching of the New Testament:
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4
And - there is the Bible testimony on the Old Covenant being done away with and on the latter house having greater glory than the former house.
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8: 6-7
"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9
Now look at statements from the founders of dispensationalism, or Christian Zionism, which teach doctrines that are the direct opposites of John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Hebrews 10: 9, Hebrews 8: 6-7 and Haggai 2: 9:
John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."
John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.
"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, claiming to be the
Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.
http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html
"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."
Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land."
Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.
Christian Zionism begins with the assumption or postulate that in Scripture Israel can only mean Old Covenant Israel, and cannot mean the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade (Jeremiah 18: 1-6) a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5). This assumption or postulate becomes important in the dialectic argument by Christian Zionists expressing their direct opposition to foundations of the Gospel.
The New Testament says the Old Covenant was done away with. It does not say that Israel was done away with. This is a subtle and complex doctrine.
Now look at this statement: Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447
Chafer a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.
It turns out that in the use of the dialectic, Christian Zionism misrepresents what the Bible says on the issues of Old Covenant Israel.
Christian Zionists cannot accept the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel was remade by Jesus Christ into a spiritual house, and that Israel after the flesh is no longer a people of God,
so any statement that says the Old Covenant was done away with means that Israel was also done away with to the Christian Zionist.
To the Christian Zionist the commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 11-20 must be Old Covenant Israel, and not the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade.
The Christian Zionist follows different rules of "Hermeneutics" in interpreting scripture than Isaiah 28: 10 implies we should follow. "For precept must be upon precept...line upon line,here a little and there a little." We are to add scriptures together to create a fuller understanding and are to use other relevant scriptures to interpret any given text in the Bible. This is not what Christian Zionism does. For example, in Ephesians 2: 12, to the Christian Zionist, the commonwealth of Israel can only mean the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and does not mean a remnant of Israel, or the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade into a spiritual house.
But to those obeying Isaiah 28: 10 the Commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 12 is Israel of the New Covenant, which to Christian Zionists cannot exist because Israel in scripture is said always to be Old Covenant Israel.
To the Christian Zionist the root in Romans 11: 16 - not specifically identified there - must be Old Covenant Israel. But Romans 11: 16 says "if the root be holy so
are the branches." Old Covenant Israel is not holy. Jesus Christ is holy and he is the root in Romans 11: 16
The setting up of direct opposites to what the New Testament says about Israel and the Old Covenant is part of the process of making an argument against some of the foundations of the Gospel of Christ by use of the dialectic.
The dialectic is found in use in Genesis 3: 1-6 where Satan deceived Eve into accepting the exact opposite of what God had said to Adam and Eve, tat if they ate of the tree they would die. It is also found in John 8: 32-44 where the Pharisees made an argument which is the direct opposite of what Christ was teaching.
"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:" I Timothy 6: 20
A better translation of γνωσεως, gnoseos, is knowledge.
The Textus Receptus says "ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως"
Oppositions is from αντιθεσεις, or antithesis. Anti-thesis? Thats part of the Hegelian dialectic. How did that Greek word get in I Timothy 6: 20?
antithesis is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 477, which is said to mean "opposition, i.e., a conflict of theories." In the Hegelian dialectic there is an opposition of two positions (theories, if you wish).
The "knowledge" which is seen by those who use these oppositions of knowledge, the anti-thesis of knowledge, have a "knowledge" that is falsely named.
This is exactly what the Hegelian dialectic in the hands of the Marxists does. The opposition of two positions, or two theories or two beliefs (attitudes, world views), produces a synthesis which is falsely seen as "knowledge," or is presented as knowledge, when it is not true knowledge, because it is a compromise with the absolute truth of the word of God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic
"Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method), from Ancient Greek διαλεκτική, is a method of argument.....The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues."
"In classical philosophy, dialectic (Greek: διαλεκτική) is a form of reasoning based upon dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments, advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses)."
"Aristotle said that it was the pre-Socratic philosopher Zeno of Elea who invented dialectic, of which the dialogues of Plato are the examples of the Socratic dialectical method."
The dialectic is a form of deception and the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic has been developed into a belief and attitude change procedure, which also infiltrated the churches in the 20th century.
In Marxism the dialectic is used to overthrow absolute Truth and absolute Morality, and in Christian Zionism it is used to change "the mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated" set of doctrines. The dialectic is used to replace part of the foundation of the Gospel with a modern form of the Judaizer mind set of the First Century which Paul had to deal with.
each time deceive is used it refers to the deception of the False Prophets.
In setting up doctrines that are the direct opposite of those in the New Testament, the False Prophets might have used one of three main historical oppositions to the Gospel of Christ, the Jewish or Judaizer opposition found, for example,in Acts 15 and in Acts 21: 18-21, and dealt with in the letter to the Galatians. The False Prophets used the Judaizer opposition because it is clearer, more easily understood and has more credibility in the churches than the Gnostic or Greek philosophical opposition. Both Gnostic and Greek philosophical opposition to the Gospel are found in the Christianity associated with Alexandria in Egypt.
Here is another example of that direct opposition to the teaching of the New Testament:
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16
"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4
And - there is the Bible testimony on the Old Covenant being done away with and on the latter house having greater glory than the former house.
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8: 6-7
"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9
Now look at statements from the founders of dispensationalism, or Christian Zionism, which teach doctrines that are the direct opposites of John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Hebrews 10: 9, Hebrews 8: 6-7 and Haggai 2: 9:
John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."
John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.
"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, claiming to be the
Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.
http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html
"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."
Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land."
Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.
Christian Zionism begins with the assumption or postulate that in Scripture Israel can only mean Old Covenant Israel, and cannot mean the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade (Jeremiah 18: 1-6) a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5). This assumption or postulate becomes important in the dialectic argument by Christian Zionists expressing their direct opposition to foundations of the Gospel.
The New Testament says the Old Covenant was done away with. It does not say that Israel was done away with. This is a subtle and complex doctrine.
Now look at this statement: Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has "...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, ‘Dispensationalism,’ Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447
Chafer a founder of Christian Zionism, following John Darby and C.I. Scofield, claimed the Bible is a mass or more or less conflicting writings and that dispensationalism or Christian Zionism makes the Bible more easily classified and assimilated, or more easily understood.
It turns out that in the use of the dialectic, Christian Zionism misrepresents what the Bible says on the issues of Old Covenant Israel.
Christian Zionists cannot accept the doctrine that Old Covenant Israel was remade by Jesus Christ into a spiritual house, and that Israel after the flesh is no longer a people of God,
so any statement that says the Old Covenant was done away with means that Israel was also done away with to the Christian Zionist.
To the Christian Zionist the commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 11-20 must be Old Covenant Israel, and not the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade.
The Christian Zionist follows different rules of "Hermeneutics" in interpreting scripture than Isaiah 28: 10 implies we should follow. "For precept must be upon precept...line upon line,here a little and there a little." We are to add scriptures together to create a fuller understanding and are to use other relevant scriptures to interpret any given text in the Bible. This is not what Christian Zionism does. For example, in Ephesians 2: 12, to the Christian Zionist, the commonwealth of Israel can only mean the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, and does not mean a remnant of Israel, or the Israel of God as Old Covenant Israel remade into a spiritual house.
But to those obeying Isaiah 28: 10 the Commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 12 is Israel of the New Covenant, which to Christian Zionists cannot exist because Israel in scripture is said always to be Old Covenant Israel.
To the Christian Zionist the root in Romans 11: 16 - not specifically identified there - must be Old Covenant Israel. But Romans 11: 16 says "if the root be holy so
are the branches." Old Covenant Israel is not holy. Jesus Christ is holy and he is the root in Romans 11: 16
The setting up of direct opposites to what the New Testament says about Israel and the Old Covenant is part of the process of making an argument against some of the foundations of the Gospel of Christ by use of the dialectic.
The dialectic is found in use in Genesis 3: 1-6 where Satan deceived Eve into accepting the exact opposite of what God had said to Adam and Eve, tat if they ate of the tree they would die. It is also found in John 8: 32-44 where the Pharisees made an argument which is the direct opposite of what Christ was teaching.
"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:" I Timothy 6: 20
A better translation of γνωσεως, gnoseos, is knowledge.
The Textus Receptus says "ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως"
Oppositions is from αντιθεσεις, or antithesis. Anti-thesis? Thats part of the Hegelian dialectic. How did that Greek word get in I Timothy 6: 20?
antithesis is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 477, which is said to mean "opposition, i.e., a conflict of theories." In the Hegelian dialectic there is an opposition of two positions (theories, if you wish).
The "knowledge" which is seen by those who use these oppositions of knowledge, the anti-thesis of knowledge, have a "knowledge" that is falsely named.
This is exactly what the Hegelian dialectic in the hands of the Marxists does. The opposition of two positions, or two theories or two beliefs (attitudes, world views), produces a synthesis which is falsely seen as "knowledge," or is presented as knowledge, when it is not true knowledge, because it is a compromise with the absolute truth of the word of God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic
"Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method), from Ancient Greek διαλεκτική, is a method of argument.....The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues."
"In classical philosophy, dialectic (Greek: διαλεκτική) is a form of reasoning based upon dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments, advocating propositions (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses)."
"Aristotle said that it was the pre-Socratic philosopher Zeno of Elea who invented dialectic, of which the dialogues of Plato are the examples of the Socratic dialectical method."
The dialectic is a form of deception and the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic has been developed into a belief and attitude change procedure, which also infiltrated the churches in the 20th century.
In Marxism the dialectic is used to overthrow absolute Truth and absolute Morality, and in Christian Zionism it is used to change "the mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated" set of doctrines. The dialectic is used to replace part of the foundation of the Gospel with a modern form of the Judaizer mind set of the First Century which Paul had to deal with.
You can't keep closing your eyes to Paul's teaching concerning Israel.
I say then have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the minishing of them the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?
....if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall be the receiving of them be but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruits be holy the lump also is holy and if the root be holy so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off and thou being a wild olive tree wert grafted in among them and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree
Boast not against but if thou boast thou bearest not the root but the root thee.
....For I would have you know this mystery lest e be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written there shall come from Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob for this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election they are BELOVED for the father's sake
For gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
I say then have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the minishing of them the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?
....if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall be the receiving of them be but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruits be holy the lump also is holy and if the root be holy so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off and thou being a wild olive tree wert grafted in among them and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree
Boast not against but if thou boast thou bearest not the root but the root thee.
....For I would have you know this mystery lest e be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written there shall come from Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob for this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes but as touching the election they are BELOVED for the father's sake
For gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Why not give the scripture identifications above and the translation?
Christian Zionism has its own peculiar way of interpreting scripture. To a great extent it interprets scripture by its own assumptions, the starting postulates that are implied in the work of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer. Since it starts from the postulate that Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel, then it is not surprising that it would interpret Romans 11: 26 to mean that all Old Covenant Israel shall be saved.
"If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 14-20 King James Version I could just as well have used the 1526 William Tyndale New Testament or the 1599 Geneva Bible, all three English Bibles being from the Reformation period.
Abraham was the root of Old Covenant Israel of the flesh as seen in Romans 9: 8 and in I Corinthians 10: 18. Ishmael was broken off, and the Old Covenant's root became Isaac; and when Esau was broken off, the root became Jacob and his sons. In a like manner when the multitude of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ the remnant of Romans 11: 5 became the root, but really Jesus Christ must be the root.
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 27-29
There is no more Old Covenant Israel by the flesh as a people of God in Galatians 3: 27-29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed" carries the implication that the seed is no longer physical DNA but it is now a spiritual seed. If not, no one is born again in Christ by the Holy Spirit.
In Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says clearly that those of Old Covenant Israel who were in unbelief were broken off. Since he says in Romans 11: 5 that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the elect by grace, those of Old Covenant Israel who were broken off because of unbelief must be the larger group, the multitude.
Then, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11: 28
"They" are Israel. But you have to look closely at what he says. That Israel which are enemies as concerning the Gospel cannot be the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). The Israel of God accepts the Gospel of Christ. Those of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ are the ones who are enemies for your sakes because of the Gospel. He is addressing those of Israel who accept Christ. But the Israel which is beloved for the father's sakes are the Israel of God, the ones who accepted Christ. And the father's sakes refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not God the Father. Again, Christian Zionism cannot understand this or accept it because it begins from the postulate that Israel in scrpiture must always be Old Covenant Israel and no other.
In Romans 11: 28 Paul is doing something similar to what he does in Romans 11: 25-26, talking about Israel of the flesh in verse 25 and the Israel which is made up of all the elect in verse 26. And Christian Zionists cannot understand or accept this because of the doctrines of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Leweis S. Chafer and many others.
Christian Zionism has its own peculiar way of interpreting scripture. To a great extent it interprets scripture by its own assumptions, the starting postulates that are implied in the work of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer. Since it starts from the postulate that Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel, then it is not surprising that it would interpret Romans 11: 26 to mean that all Old Covenant Israel shall be saved.
"If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 14-20 King James Version I could just as well have used the 1526 William Tyndale New Testament or the 1599 Geneva Bible, all three English Bibles being from the Reformation period.
Abraham was the root of Old Covenant Israel of the flesh as seen in Romans 9: 8 and in I Corinthians 10: 18. Ishmael was broken off, and the Old Covenant's root became Isaac; and when Esau was broken off, the root became Jacob and his sons. In a like manner when the multitude of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ the remnant of Romans 11: 5 became the root, but really Jesus Christ must be the root.
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 27-29
There is no more Old Covenant Israel by the flesh as a people of God in Galatians 3: 27-29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed" carries the implication that the seed is no longer physical DNA but it is now a spiritual seed. If not, no one is born again in Christ by the Holy Spirit.
In Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says clearly that those of Old Covenant Israel who were in unbelief were broken off. Since he says in Romans 11: 5 that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel became the elect by grace, those of Old Covenant Israel who were broken off because of unbelief must be the larger group, the multitude.
Then, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11: 28
"They" are Israel. But you have to look closely at what he says. That Israel which are enemies as concerning the Gospel cannot be the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). The Israel of God accepts the Gospel of Christ. Those of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Christ are the ones who are enemies for your sakes because of the Gospel. He is addressing those of Israel who accept Christ. But the Israel which is beloved for the father's sakes are the Israel of God, the ones who accepted Christ. And the father's sakes refers to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not God the Father. Again, Christian Zionism cannot understand this or accept it because it begins from the postulate that Israel in scrpiture must always be Old Covenant Israel and no other.
In Romans 11: 28 Paul is doing something similar to what he does in Romans 11: 25-26, talking about Israel of the flesh in verse 25 and the Israel which is made up of all the elect in verse 26. And Christian Zionists cannot understand or accept this because of the doctrines of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Leweis S. Chafer and many others.
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Check it out in your own Bible.
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Look here in chapter 4 and see who is the real false prophet:
http://MountZion.notlong.com
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5
So you are saying that the Israel who are enemies...that is natural Israel but the Israel which is beloved is the church?
Phooey
They are beloved because of the fathers, because of the election.
Nor can you say that the Jews who believed are beloved but the Jews who do not believe are enemies for those who are enemies are the those who are beloved.
Just as those who are grafted out will be grafted back, those who were cast away will be received.
You err because you refuse to acknowledge that Israel is indeed laid aside [all dispys believe that] but it is only for a time "until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in"
The famous parenthesis
Ben Masada
New member
It has been a long time since Old Covenant Israel was the chosen People
It has been a long time since Old Covenant Israel was the chosen People
To Northwye: The reason why to you it seems to be a long time since the Old Covenant between HaShem and Israel as the chosen People was established, it is because that covenant is eternal as long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37)
It has been a long time since Old Covenant Israel was the chosen People
To Northwye: The reason why to you it seems to be a long time since the Old Covenant between HaShem and Israel as the chosen People was established, it is because that covenant is eternal as long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37)
Ben Masada
New member
You didn't quote the text but I found out that's from John 8. If that's true, did you know that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him? (John 8:31) How could he tell the Jews who had believed in him that they were children of the Devil? It makes no sense to me. Perhaps you didn't quote because you found it absurd yourself. Do you have any idea about this paradox?
"So you are saying that the Israel who are enemies...that is natural Israel but the Israel which is beloved is the church?"
No, that is a misrepresentation of Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, I Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29. There is no ekklesia in these texts, nor is there mention of the ekklesia in Romans 11. In fact the only chapter that Paul uses ekklesia in Romans is chapter 16.
A doctrine is always established by the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used to establish that doctrine. And there is a doctrine, though implied, of the church from ekklesia.
Again, the problem is that Christian Zionism postulates from its own ideas rather than following scripture. Since Darby, Scofield and the other founders say that God now has two peoples Old Covenant Israel and the Capital C Church, then there can be no Israel of God, no Israel reborn in Christ for the followers of Christian Zionism. So for Christian Zionists the Israel which is beloved for the sakes of the fathers must be the Church, since for them Israel can only be Old Covenant Israel and not an Israel remade in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and in the Father.
The followers of Darby et al have another Gospel and Paul says of another Gospel in Galatians 1: 9 "...if any man peach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
First, it has to be acknowledged that Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29 contradicts the way Christian Zionism has interpreted Romans 11: 25-26. Romans 11: 25-26 is not metaphoric, but it is nevertheless subtle and requires discernment from the Holy Spirit to get it if you have never been taught what Paul is saying there and understand it.
Christian Zionists have been taught a literal way of interpreting scripture and this more literal way of viewing the word of God makes it very hard for them to accept statements which are subtle and depend upon a teaching that Paul makes elsewhere for full understanding - and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The Reformers, or many of them, understood the subtle shift from Old Covenant Israel of the flesh in Romans 11: 25 to Israel in Christ as the elect of God in Romans 11: 26. They say that Luther first believed Romans 11: 26 applied to Old Covenant Israel and then changed his mind. Calvin is clear that Romans 11: 26 applies to all the elect and apparently understood what Paul was teaching in places other than Romans 11 about a physical Israel and an Israel of God.
A part of this understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 is carried on by some of the more conservative Calvinists, who will say the church is Israel. Though this is not entirely right, it is also not in agreement with Christian Zionism.
Richard L. Pratt Jr. of the Reformed Theological Seminary says "In
Calvin's view, "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods....In line with Calvin's view, it is common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."
Though the conservative Calvinists hang on to the Catholic idea of the ruling Capital C Church, some within the conservative Reformed groups have a better understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 than does the vast majority now in the churches who are under the influence of Christian Zionism. The conservative Calvinists also still follow Theodore Beza in returning to the Church which rules over the members by an elite, the clergy.
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16
If the principle taught in Zechariah 13: 8-9 - two parts will be cut off and die, but a third part is brought through the fire, and become the people of God - is applied to Christian Zionists, most of those in Christian Zionism will not come out of it, but a part will.
No, that is a misrepresentation of Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, I Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29. There is no ekklesia in these texts, nor is there mention of the ekklesia in Romans 11. In fact the only chapter that Paul uses ekklesia in Romans is chapter 16.
A doctrine is always established by the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used to establish that doctrine. And there is a doctrine, though implied, of the church from ekklesia.
Again, the problem is that Christian Zionism postulates from its own ideas rather than following scripture. Since Darby, Scofield and the other founders say that God now has two peoples Old Covenant Israel and the Capital C Church, then there can be no Israel of God, no Israel reborn in Christ for the followers of Christian Zionism. So for Christian Zionists the Israel which is beloved for the sakes of the fathers must be the Church, since for them Israel can only be Old Covenant Israel and not an Israel remade in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and in the Father.
The followers of Darby et al have another Gospel and Paul says of another Gospel in Galatians 1: 9 "...if any man peach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
First, it has to be acknowledged that Paul's teaching in Romans 9: 6-8, Corinthians 10: 18, Galatians 6: 16 and implications from Galatians 3: 3, 16, 27-29 contradicts the way Christian Zionism has interpreted Romans 11: 25-26. Romans 11: 25-26 is not metaphoric, but it is nevertheless subtle and requires discernment from the Holy Spirit to get it if you have never been taught what Paul is saying there and understand it.
Christian Zionists have been taught a literal way of interpreting scripture and this more literal way of viewing the word of God makes it very hard for them to accept statements which are subtle and depend upon a teaching that Paul makes elsewhere for full understanding - and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The Reformers, or many of them, understood the subtle shift from Old Covenant Israel of the flesh in Romans 11: 25 to Israel in Christ as the elect of God in Romans 11: 26. They say that Luther first believed Romans 11: 26 applied to Old Covenant Israel and then changed his mind. Calvin is clear that Romans 11: 26 applies to all the elect and apparently understood what Paul was teaching in places other than Romans 11 about a physical Israel and an Israel of God.
A part of this understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 is carried on by some of the more conservative Calvinists, who will say the church is Israel. Though this is not entirely right, it is also not in agreement with Christian Zionism.
Richard L. Pratt Jr. of the Reformed Theological Seminary says "In
Calvin's view, "all Israel" refers neither to believing Jews alone, nor to believers within the New Testament church alone. Instead, "all Israel" denotes the combined number of believing Jews and Gentiles from both the Old and New Testaments periods....In line with Calvin's view, it is common for Reformed theologians to speak of Israel as the church and the church as Israel."
Though the conservative Calvinists hang on to the Catholic idea of the ruling Capital C Church, some within the conservative Reformed groups have a better understanding of Romans 11: 25-26 than does the vast majority now in the churches who are under the influence of Christian Zionism. The conservative Calvinists also still follow Theodore Beza in returning to the Church which rules over the members by an elite, the clergy.
"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." II Peter 3: 15-16
If the principle taught in Zechariah 13: 8-9 - two parts will be cut off and die, but a third part is brought through the fire, and become the people of God - is applied to Christian Zionists, most of those in Christian Zionism will not come out of it, but a part will.
Ben Masada
New member
You are not serious Worthwye. I have said nothing of what you claim in this post of yours above. Besides, I am not a Christian Zionist.
Those who opposed Him as opposed to "My sheep hear My voice"
@ Northwye 54
You are misrepresenting dispys they do not say there are at the present time 2 peoples of God.
The Jews are laid aside until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
You are misrepresenting dispys they do not say there are at the present time 2 peoples of God.
The Jews are laid aside until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ben Masada
New member
Sorry Linnet, but this is a non-sequitur. That's no answer to my question and not even related to.
...ok
beloved57
Well-known member
When the fulness of the Gentiles is complete then all Israel will be saved ! No more Salvation then ! The Mystery of God will be completed !