It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

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northwye

New member
It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7: 6

“Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.” Isaiah 19: 25

But look at Exodus 19: 5-6. It says “If” Old Covenant Israel obeys God, then it will be a peculiar treasure above all people. The chosen people status was conditional, not unconditional, based upon the physical DNA from Abraham.

God did promise Abraham in Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 that Abraham would be the father of many nations. Genesis 17: 10-14 might seem to say that the covenant of circumcision means that so long as the males of Old Covenant Israel are circumcised, then Old Covenant Israel will be the chosen people, and Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 might be seen to be an unconditional promise that Old Covenant Israel will always be the chosen people of God because of their bloodline. But scripture has to be interpreted by scripture, not by man-made theologies. “For precept must be upon precept...line upon line...here a little, and there a little.” Isaiah 28: 10

That there is no longer a chosen people based only on their flesh, on their physical DNA. is found in the teachings of Paul in Romans 2: 23-24, 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see it. The implications of these texts are not spelled out in detail, leaving room for the literalists and those who deal in the letter to convince many that the chosen people by the physical blood line is still in effect.

Statements of Jesus Christ himself also imply that the people of the Old Covenant are no longer the chosen people (Exodus 19: 5-6). such as John 3: 3, and John 3: 5, that everyone must be born again of the Spirit to be in the kingdom of God, and Matthew 23:38, that the Old Covenant house is desolate, meaning it is spiritually desolate and that the Spirit and Christ are not in it.

Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9: 6-8

Exodus 19: 5-6 says “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

Then, under the New Covenant, Peter tells us in I Peter 2: 5, 9 “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ........But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

In I Peter 2: 9 Peter is quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 and applying it to Christians. Who are “ye” in I Peter 2: 5 and in I Peter 2: 9? “Ye” cannot be Old Covenant Israel. Those of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 17-20 who did not accept Jesus Christ and were not born again were cut off. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 1-5 did accept Christ and became the beginning of the New Covenant.

That multitude of Old Covenant Israel, who rejected Christ, continued on claiming still to be the chosen people, in Talmudic Judaism. Since those in Talmudic Judaism reject Christ in an explicit way, they are of the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3).

What do we call those of Old Covenant Israel who remain in unbelief? Their spiritual condition is not different from others who reject Jesus Christ. Their spiritual state is that of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are the unbelievers, the unsaved, and the earth dwellers (Luke 21: 35, Revelation 6:10, Revelation 11:10, Revelation 12: 12, Revelation 13: 8, Revelation 13: 12, Revelation 13: 14, Revelation 14: 6) in the sense that they do not sit with Jesus Christ in heavely places as do the elect that are physiclly still on earth. Revelation 13: 6 is relevant since it mentions those that dwell in heaven, which is those physically on earth who spiritually sit with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2: 6). And so Revelation 14: 3, on the 144,000,is also relevant, as a remnant, being redeemed from the earth, that is, they are raised up above the earth dwellers to sit with Christ metaphorically on Mount Zion.

"Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." Malachi 1: 4.

Edom is trying to rebuild its chosen status, "they shall build, but I will throw down."

."For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
12. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible." Malachi 1: 11-12.

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4. And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5. My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7. For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9. Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law." Malachi 2: 3-9.

Malachi starts by talking about Edom. Then Malachi talks about Old Covenant Israel.

In Genesis 25: 25-34 Edom-Esau gave up his birthright to Jacob, but in Malachi 1: 4 Edom-Esau is trying to regain that lost birthright, which God opposes. Then in Malachi 2, the apostasy of Old Covenant Israel is described.

In Isaiah 50: 1 God put away Old Covenant Israel, and in Jeremiah 3:8 God put away Israel, and the implication is that Judah is also put away. for the same apostasy. Then, in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 God remade Old Covenant Israel. Old Covenant Israel follows Edom-Esau in trying to get back its status as the chosen people.

Those claiming still to be the chosen people of God of the Old Covenant, can enter into New Covenant Israel. Remember that Jeremiah 18: 1-6 teaches that God remade Old Covenant Israel, and I Peter 2: 5 says “ye,” meaning born again Christians, are now built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood.

Those claiming to still be the chosen people under the Old Covenant can join that spiritual house. “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romns 11: 23

Were they, as those claiming still to be the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, to come to believe and be born again in Christ, they would not have that more exclusive status as the chosen people based upon their physical bloodline.

But - John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer teach something different about Old Covenant Israel, something which becomes another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9) and teaching another Gospel, they teach another Jesus.

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.

http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

The teaching of Christian Zionism that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel, or physical Israel, and the Church, does not stand.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4
 
C

chair

Well-known member
Why do you care?
We (Jews) aren't going to pay attention to this kind of thing.

As far as you are concerned, it is all over with, and has been for a long time.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
northwye said:
It Has Been A Long Time Since Old Covenant Israel Was the Chosen People

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7: 6

“Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.” Isaiah 19: 25

But look at Exodus 19: 5-6. It says “If” Old Covenant Israel obeys God, then it will be a peculiar treasure above all people. The chosen people status was conditional, not unconditional, based upon the physical DNA from Abraham.

God did promise Abraham in Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 that Abraham would be the father of many nations. Genesis 17: 10-14 might seem to say that the covenant of circumcision means that so long as the males of Old Covenant Israel are circumcised, then Old Covenant Israel will be the chosen people, and Genesis 17: 4, 7-8 might be seen to be an unconditional promise that Old Covenant Israel will always be the chosen people of God because of their bloodline. But scripture has to be interpreted by scripture, not by man-made theologies. “For precept must be upon precept...line upon line...here a little, and there a little.” Isaiah 28: 10

That there is no longer a chosen people based only on their flesh, on their physical DNA. is found in the teachings of Paul in Romans 2: 23-24, 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see it. The implications of these texts are not spelled out in detail, leaving room for the literalists and those who deal in the letter to convince many that the chosen people by the physical blood line is still in effect.

Statements of Jesus Christ himself also imply that the people of the Old Covenant are no longer the chosen people (Exodus 19: 5-6). such as John 3: 3, and John 3: 5, that everyone must be born again of the Spirit to be in the kingdom of God, and Matthew 23:38, that the Old Covenant house is desolate, meaning it is spiritually desolate and that the Spirit and Christ are not in it.

Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9: 6-8

Exodus 19: 5-6 says “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

Then, under the New Covenant, Peter tells us in I Peter 2: 5, 9 “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ........But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

In I Peter 2: 9 Peter is quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 and applying it to Christians. Who are “ye” in I Peter 2: 5 and in I Peter 2: 9? “Ye” cannot be Old Covenant Israel. Those of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 17-20 who did not accept Jesus Christ and were not born again were cut off. A remnant of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 1-5 did accept Christ and became the beginning of the New Covenant.

That multitude of Old Covenant Israel, who rejected Christ, continued on claiming still to be the chosen people, in Talmudic Judaism. Since those in Talmudic Judaism reject Christ in an explicit way, they are of the spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3).

What do we call those of Old Covenant Israel who remain in unbelief? Their spiritual condition is not different from others who reject Jesus Christ. Their spiritual state is that of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are the unbelievers, the unsaved, and the earth dwellers (Luke 21: 35, Revelation 6:10, Revelation 11:10, Revelation 12: 12, Revelation 13: 8, Revelation 13: 12, Revelation 13: 14, Revelation 14: 6) in the sense that they do not sit with Jesus Christ in heavely places as do the elect that are physiclly still on earth. Revelation 13: 6 is relevant since it mentions those that dwell in heaven, which is those physically on earth who spiritually sit with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2: 6). And so Revelation 14: 3, on the 144,000,is also relevant, as a remnant, being redeemed from the earth, that is, they are raised up above the earth dwellers to sit with Christ metaphorically on Mount Zion.

"Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." Malachi 1: 4.

Edom is trying to rebuild its chosen status, "they shall build, but I will throw down."

."For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
12. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible." Malachi 1: 11-12.

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4. And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5. My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6. The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7. For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9. Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law." Malachi 2: 3-9.

Malachi starts by talking about Edom. Then Malachi talks about Old Covenant Israel.

In Genesis 25: 25-34 Edom-Esau gave up his birthright to Jacob, but in Malachi 1: 4 Edom-Esau is trying to regain that lost birthright, which God opposes. Then in Malachi 2, the apostasy of Old Covenant Israel is described.

In Isaiah 50: 1 God put away Old Covenant Israel, and in Jeremiah 3:8 God put away Israel, and the implication is that Judah is also put away. for the same apostasy. Then, in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 God remade Old Covenant Israel. Old Covenant Israel follows Edom-Esau in trying to get back its status as the chosen people.

Those claiming still to be the chosen people of God of the Old Covenant, can enter into New Covenant Israel. Remember that Jeremiah 18: 1-6 teaches that God remade Old Covenant Israel, and I Peter 2: 5 says “ye,” meaning born again Christians, are now built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood.

Those claiming to still be the chosen people under the Old Covenant can join that spiritual house. “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romns 11: 23

Were they, as those claiming still to be the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, to come to believe and be born again in Christ, they would not have that more exclusive status as the chosen people based upon their physical bloodline.

But - John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer teach something different about Old Covenant Israel, something which becomes another Gospel (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9) and teaching another Gospel, they teach another Jesus.

John Darby said that the "Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the
earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation'
Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are all physical Israel, or Old Covenant Israel. The church, for Darby exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel.

http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.c...-of-jesus.html

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

Chafer says "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Lewis S. Chafer refers to physical Israel as God's earthy chosen people. And early dispensationalists talk about the church as being only a "parenthesis" within dispensations.

"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

The teaching of Christian Zionism that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel, or physical Israel, and the Church, does not stand.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10: 16

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." Romans 12: 4-5

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" Ephesians 4: 4
Click to expand...

An excellent post.

LA
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
"...do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either" (Romans 11:18-21).

The time of the Gentiles will come to an end. It has probably already started. Many claim to be Christians, but are not.


God has not stopped loving Israel/Jews.

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you " (Romans 11:28-31).

"... all Israel will be saved. As it is written:


'The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:26-27)
 
N

northwye

New member
In Romans 11 Israel is cut off, and hardened but Israel is also saved. How is this possible? One major key to understanding this is in Romans 11: 1-5, where Paul is talking about a remnant of Old Covenant Israel that becomes the elect. By implication, since the remnant is a small number, then those who are cut off and hardened are the mass, the multitude or great majority.

See: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/romans/11.htm

Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, -- "When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God's family." This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith." John Calvin on Romans 11: 25-26

Calvinism is a complex topic and the interpretation that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is not Old Covenant Israel, but is all the elect of God does not belong only to Calvinism.

According to http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MuetzelRomans.pdf

"When Martin Luther lectured on Romans in 1517, he indicated that the Jewish
people would “return in their own time.” Later writings of Luther reveal a total rejection of the “general conversion” view."

How long will this hardening on the part of some in Old Covenant Israel go on? “Until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” Jesus talked about this πλήρωμα (fullness) of the Gentiles. He said, “And the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14

Christian Zionism - the theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer - uses a peculiar way of interpreting scripture which is different from what Isaiah 28: 13 says. "...the word of God was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little, there a little, and there a little..."

Who Israel is in Romans 11: 26 must be interpreted by other scripture and not only by a man made theology. Romans 9: 6 says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. " Romans 9: 8 goes on to say "That is, they which are the children of the flesh,these are not the children of God."

Romans 9: 6 is very brief and too concise for some to understand. Romans 9: 8 helps some in understanding Romans 9: 6 Paul is saying that there is an Israel of the flesh and an Israel, different fro. m the Israel of the flesh, and that the Israel of the flesh are not the children of God. For not all who are physical Israel are the Israel (spiritual) of God (Galatians 6: 16)

In I Corinthians 10: 18 Paul says "Behold Israel after the flesh..." This implies with certainty that there is another Israel, which is the children of God, and this other Israel comes into being in the New Covenant.

Galatians 4: 22-26 shows that there is a Jerusalem which now exists which is in bondage and another Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, meaning all who are born again in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Jerusalem is metaphoric for Israel.

Another scripture relevant to the issue of who Israel is in Romans 11: 26 is Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29. These verses do not support the theology that the Old Covenant still exists somehow and that those of the physical bloodline from Abraham are the chosen people as Christian Zionism says or implies.

In Romans 11: 17-20 Paul says those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were broken off. And Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 says the physical bloodline from Abraham is now a spiritual inheritance. And now there is "Neither Jew nor Greek," and "if ye be Christ's then ye are Abraham's seed" meaning you are also the seed of God, the spiritual seed. God no longer calls or selects by use of the physical bloodline, a truth not in agreement with Christian Zionism.

Read Romans 11: 28 more carefully. "As concerning the Gospel, "they" are enemies for your sakes..." And " but as touching the election, "they" are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Who are "they" in the two parts of Romans 11: 28? Paul is talking about Israel after the flesh in the first part of the sentence, and the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) in the second part. Christian Zionism does not allow for this shift, as it does not allow for the shift from physical Israel to the Israel of the New Covenant in Romans 11: 25 to Romans 11: 26. Christian Zionism starts from the assumption that Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel. In addition, "they are beloved for the fathers' sakes" does not mean Israel is beloved for God's sake, but for the fathers, Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
 
Last edited:
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
northwye said:
In Romans 11 Israel is cut off, and hardened but Israel is also saved. How is this possible? One major key to understanding this is in Romans 11: 1-5, where Paul is talking about a remnant of Old Covenant Israel that becomes the elect. By implication, since the remnant is a small number, then those who are cut off and hardened are the mass, the multitude or great majority.

See: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/romans/11.htm

Romans 11: 26. "And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, -- "When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God's family." This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith." John Calvin on Romans 11: 25-26

Calvinism is a complex topic and the interpretation that Israel in Romans 11: 26 is not Old Covenant Israel, but is all the elect of God does not belong only to Calvinism.

According to http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MuetzelRomans.pdf

"When Martin Luther lectured on Romans in 1517, he indicated that the Jewish
people would “return in their own time.” Later writings of Luther reveal a total rejection of the “general conversion” view."

How long will this hardening on the part of some in Old Covenant Israel go on? “Until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” Jesus talked about this πλήρωμα (fullness) of the Gentiles. He said, “And the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24: 14
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Not Chosen Israel, just national israel according to the flesh, Paul makes a distinction Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest[national israel] were blinded.

Theres always been a distinction between ethnic national israel and the Elect/Chosen Israel, yet people have ignored it, to their own peril !

Paul had wrote earlier Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

One of these Israels is national Israel, the Other is a International Spiritual Israel, or one of them is Israel according to Abraham's physical seed, the other according to Abrahams Promised Spiritual Seed, One according to the flesh, one according to the Spirit and Promise Rom 9:8 !

The Chosen Elect Israel has not ever been cut off or cast away, Pauls meaning here Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
 
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northwye

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In Christian Zionist theology. how does the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 relate to its belief that Romans 11: 25-26 means that when the fullness of the Gentiles (the ethnon) occurs. then blindness will be removed from whoever at that time is identified as Old Covenant Israel. Remember that there are several other prophecies about an apostasy, such as Luke 13: 18-21, I Timothy 4: 1. II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8, II Timothy 4: 3-4 and there are those prophecies about the false prophets, such as Matthew 24: 11, and II Peter 2: 1-3, which imply for sure that there is an apostasy.

In Christian Zionist end time prophecy I thought that the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is always future and that it happens only when the one man super anti-Christ appears.

In the period of the falling away how does Christian Zionism tell the difference between the apostasy of the Ethnos (the peoples, the nations) and the coming to the fullness of the Ethnos, which Christian Zionist apparently insists is the Gentiles.

Christian Zionism cannot see that its own history is a part of the falling away, which has 19th century origins.

As I understand Christian Zionist theology, the falling away of the Church from sound doctrine occurs only near the very end of the Church age, and that there is in that theology no apostasy, or faling away from sound doctrine now in the Christian Zionist Churches. And Christian Zionism does not recognize the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, and claims that the 144,000 is made up only of Jews.

This means that in Christian Zionism there is no understanding of the pinciple of the remnant, that at times of apostasy of the multitude God always has a remnant who, as Revelation 12: 17 says, have the testimony of Jesus Christ. In Christian Zionist end time prophecy, apparently at a point in time the ethnos (Gentiles to the Christian Zionists) are no longer really Christians, and only whoever at that time is Old Covenant Israel become the Christians, or become God's people..
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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beloved57 said:
God has never cast away His People Israel! The Israel He cast away was not His People! You don't understand post 7 do you?
Click to expand...

I understand it but I don't agree with it...I understand most doctrines I don't agree with.

Because

There is only one Israel, that is national Israel, Paul speaks of the church as the Israel of God and truly the church is for we are grafted into Israel, we are the shoot, they are the root, all one olive tree. They the earthly, we the heavenly.

That is a long passage in which Paul deals with Israel, understanding Paul how he debates with himself on a subject throwing up first one scenario and then another only to throw them down before he sums up with what is the true position.

In the 11th chapter of Romans he sums up, it is here that we find Israel's true position.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which by nature is wild by nature and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree HOW MUCH MORE will these which be the natural branches be graffed into their own olive tree?

For I would not brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in

And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written

There shall come of sion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them when I shall take away their sins

As concerning the gospel they are enemies for our sakes but as touching election they are beloved for the father's sake. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This is Paul's summation and the end of his argument.

I totally fail to see how folk who BELIEVE in Election can write Israel off.
 
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Totton Linnet

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It is those who were cast away who are to be received, they who were graffed out are the ones who will be graffed back in


....not the remnant, they were not cast out
 
Totton Linnet

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The scriptures I posted which you skipped over was Paul's summing up of all he had been saying and he sums up by saying all Israel will be saved.


I suspect that "all" does not mean every single
 
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northwye

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Galatians 6: 16, " And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Who the Israel of God is here is understood from Romans 9: 6-8 and from I Corinthians 10: 18.

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Romans 9: 6

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9: 8

All who are of Israel according to the flesh, are not Israel reborn in Christ. Paul says also in I Corinthians 10: 18, "Behold, Israel after the flesh..." In Galatians 6: 16 Paul does not simply say "...peace be upon them, and mercy upon Israel." He defines this Israel as the Israel of God, different from Israel according to the flesh.

Another way of looking at the Israel which is of God, different from Israel according to the flesh, is that the Israel of God is that Israel which is said to be remade by God in Jeremiah 18: 4. And remember Hosea 2: 23 is a prophecy saying that God was to make a people which were not his people the people of God, in effect, adding them to the Israel of God. And in Ephesians 2: 12-20 the Gentiles are said to have been aliens to Israel and without Christ, but are made close by the blood of Christ. Close to what? To Israel, but now, not close to Israel of the flesh, but close to the Israel of God.

Also - "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3: 3

Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18) is not the people of God (Romans 9: 8)

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3: 16

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 26-29

The inheritance from Abraham became spiritual, and is no longer physical, as in the Old Covenant. This is why Israel after the flesh, who reject Christ in an explicit way, and are not born again, are not the children of God. To say that God will select Israel after the flesh to become saved at some time in the future for Christian Zionists - on the basis of their claim to be the physical descendants of Abraham - would not be consistent with Galatians 3.

"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts." Haggai 2: 9
 
Totton Linnet

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Here is where you make a mistake.

You suppose that being Israel of the flesh is to be wholly cast off by God.

Go back to Jacob and Esau, we know that Jacob by trickery inherited the promise...what you are supposing is that Esau is damned.

You can't prove that, he is still seed of Abraham the promise of the land still belongs to him and we see that he is at the last reconciled to Jacob.

We have never said that fleshly Israel's inheritance will be heaven, God's promise to them is not heaven...but the land IS promised to them, and not the land only but the ends of the earth.

But I put it to you that Paul says that God's plan

"for the fullness of time is to reconcile ALL things to Himself, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth through our Lord Jesus Christ."

The fullness of times is the Mill....how do I know that?

Because Christ and His apostles have shown us graphically what conditions will prevail on earth right up to the second coming of our Lord and the end of this age

War, famine, natural disasters

Anything BUT all things being reconciled to God, so this reconciliation or as Peter calls it the restoration of all things as spoken by the mouth of all the prophets since the world began will take place after the Lord returns.

At last the kingdom of heaven will be manifest ON EARTH. The prayer we have been taught to pray will be answered, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" The church Jew/Gentile will rule with Christ from heaven....the Jews will reign with Christ on earth.
 
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northwye

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Any person can accept Christ, be born again, and become part of the elect. But Christian Zionism acts as a proxy or agent for the multitude of Old Covenant Israel which became Talmudic Judaism.

And - to say that the Old Covenant is still in effect in some way is making an argument against the absolute truth of scripture. It is the dialectic.

John Darby, C. I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer were probably not under an influence from Karl Marx. But during the 20th century Transformational Marxism invaded, to some extent, much of the church, while it was becoming an influence upon other institutions of society. Marxism makes a peculiar use of the Hegelian Dialectic. It uses the dialectic as a belief and attitude change procedure.

"In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred." Karl Marx

Benjamin Bloom, who wrote the two volume book on the Taxonomy
of Educational Goal Objectives, by which all teachers must be
certified, said "“We recognize the point of view that
truth and knowledge are only relative and that there are no hard and
fast truths which exist for all time and places.” (Benjamin Bloom, et
al., Taxonomy of Educational Objectives, Book 1, Cognitive Domain)

"Once the earthly family is discovered to be the secret of the
heavenly family, the former must be destroyed (annihilated), in theory
and in practice." Karl Marx, Feuerbach Thesis #4

“The individual accepts the new system of values and beliefs by
accepting belongingness to the group.” Kurt Lewin in Kenneth Benne
Human Relations in Curriculum Change

There is a subtle reference to the dialectic as used in Greek philosophy before the time of Christ in I Timothy 6: 20.

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:"

ω τιμοθεε την παρακαταθηκην φυλαξον εκτρεπομενος τας βεβηλους κενοφωνιας και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and antithesis of knowledge, so called.

αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, is a term from Greek philosophy, and part of the terminology of the early Greek dialectic procedure in philosophy.

Scripture is absolute truth and the Marxist version of the ancient Greek dialectic, updated by Hegel, teaches that no truth or moral is absolute, but that truths and morals are subject to change.

The dialectic is a belief and attitude change procedure which challenges absolute truth, including that of the Bible.
 
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