ECT Israel's New Covenant and the Body of Christ

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Correct, they had not received the promise, they had not received the rest, and were not yet partakers of Christ.

"Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:19-22)
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
STP,
I see you still tinker with Heb 8:8. Meaning: the way the rest of chs 9-10 complete destroys the idea you think it contains. It's all about 9:15 which is the core of what the passage is saying. Stop looking for soundbytes about otherwise. It destroys the Bible without lighting a match.

There is no indication anywhere in Hebrews that the New Covenant is with Gentiles.
You made that up.

Why would you do that?

Hath God said?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
There is no indication anywhere in Hebrews that the New Covenant is with Gentiles.

Why does it need to be in Hebrews?

Paul said, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”'),that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13-14)

The curse of the law is spiritual death.

The promise of the Spirit through faith is eternal life.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Why does it need to be in Hebrews?

Paul said, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”'),that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13-14)

The curse of the law is spiritual death.

The promise of the Spirit through faith is eternal life.

The point:

"IP the Learned" insists that Hebrews 9-10 redefines Hebrews 8.

No Gentiles are found in any of it, however.
 
That is not what he said. Instead, he said that he is a minister of the "New Testament," and that "testament" is the Last Will and Testament of Christ:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (diatheke); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life"
(2 Cor.3:6; KJV).​

When we compare that verse which speaks of the "ministry" of the New Testament with verses which follow later about the same ministry then we can understand that Paul understood that the words "testament" and "gospel" have the same meaning or signifiance:

"Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord"
(2 Cor.4:1-4).​

Paul's words "this ministry" are obviously pointing back to the "ministry" of 2 Cor.3:6 and it is evident that his words "this ministry" are in regard to the "manifestation of the truth," the preaching of "Christ Jesus the Lord"-- "the glorious gospel of Christ."

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of the ministry of the New Testament he is speaking of the ministry of the gospel.

Albert Barnes wrote the following commentary on 2 Corinthians 4:1:

"Seeing we have this ministry - The gospel ministry, so much more glorious than that of Moses 2 Corinthians 3:6; which is the ministry by which the Holy Spirit acts on the hearts of people 2 Corinthians 3:8; which is the ministry of that system by which people are justified 2 Corinthians 3:9; and which is the ministry of a system so pure and unclouded, 2 Corinthians 3:9-11, 2 Corinthians 3:18" (Barnes' Notes on the Bible; Commentary at 2 Corinthians 4:1).​

In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we read: "seeing we have this ministry 'The ministration of the Spirit' (2 Co 3:8, 9): the ministry of such a spiritual, liberty-giving Gospel: resuming 2 Co 3:6, 8" (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Corinthians 4:1).

Christians receive their spiritual blessings through the gospel of Christ and not through the New Covenant promised to the nation of Israel.

Don't you think Ephesians 2:12-14 indicates that gentiles are brought into all the covenantal promises given to Israel?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Don't you think Ephesians 2:12-14 indicates that gentiles are brought into all the covenantal promises given to Israel?

Nope, not made nigh to Israel but made nigh to the Father purely by the blood of Christ without having to go through Israel as it was in 'time past'.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


 

Danoh

New member
Don't you think Ephesians 2:12-14 indicates that gentiles are brought into all the covenantal promises given to Israel?

Hey Aaron - welcome back! :)

And no, as Paul's entire ministry is AFTER Israel's fall.

Case in point, his first letter, many years before Ephesians - where he also says something similar to Ephesians 2's Time Past "Gentiles in the flesh..."

Galatians 4:8 Howbeit then, WHEN ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 4:9 BUT NOW, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Or his second letter, where he mentions the spiritual aspect of God's soon to fall physical wrath, has already come upon Israel...

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath IS COME UPON THEM to the UTTERMOST.

Or in the following, wherein he again mentions something similar to Ephesians 2...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are ALL under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 11:30 For as ye IN TIMES PAST have not believed God, YET HAVE NOW obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have THESE ALSO NOW not believed, that through your mercy they ALSO may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God HATH concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who WERE dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom ALSO WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children OF WRATH, even as others.

Ephesians 2:13 BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes WERE far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2:16 And that he might reconcile BOTH unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 2:17 And came and preached peace to YOU WHICH WERE afar off, and to THEM that WERE nigh.

And so on...

Acts 17: 11, 12
 

Danoh

New member
Nope, not made nigh to Israel but made nigh to the Father purely by the blood of Christ without having to go through Israel as it was in 'time past'.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



Yep.

Acts 17: 11, 12.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Do Christians partake of the New Covenant mentioned here?:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

Shalom.

Today is Shlishli, 11-7. I am a Jew and not a Christian. Can I have this discussion with you?

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Danoh

New member
That is not what he said. Instead, he said that he is a minister of the "New Testament," and that "testament" is the Last Will and Testament of Christ:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (diatheke); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life"
(2 Cor.3:6; KJV).​

When we compare that verse which speaks of the "ministry" of the New Testament with verses which follow later about the same ministry then we can understand that Paul understood that the words "testament" and "gospel" have the same meaning or signifiance:

"Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord"
(2 Cor.4:1-4).​

Paul's words "this ministry" are obviously pointing back to the "ministry" of 2 Cor.3:6 and it is evident that his words "this ministry" are in regard to the "manifestation of the truth," the preaching of "Christ Jesus the Lord"-- "the glorious gospel of Christ."

So we can understand that when Paul speaks of the ministry of the New Testament he is speaking of the ministry of the gospel.

Albert Barnes wrote the following commentary on 2 Corinthians 4:1:

"Seeing we have this ministry - The gospel ministry, so much more glorious than that of Moses 2 Corinthians 3:6; which is the ministry by which the Holy Spirit acts on the hearts of people 2 Corinthians 3:8; which is the ministry of that system by which people are justified 2 Corinthians 3:9; and which is the ministry of a system so pure and unclouded, 2 Corinthians 3:9-11, 2 Corinthians 3:18" (Barnes' Notes on the Bible; Commentary at 2 Corinthians 4:1).​

In the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary we read: "seeing we have this ministry 'The ministration of the Spirit' (2 Co 3:8, 9): the ministry of such a spiritual, liberty-giving Gospel: resuming 2 Co 3:6, 8" (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Commentary at 2 Corinthians 4:1).

Christians receive their spiritual blessings through the gospel of Christ and not through the New Covenant promised to the nation of Israel.

Nope.

He said "able ministers of THE new testament.

Not of "A new testament," and not of some "last will and testament" notion of yours.

All you are doing is attempting to harmonize what only appears to be a contradiction so that it no longer appears to be one.

And you are not doing a very good job of it.

How's about just taking the Scripture at its Word?

Not only that it means what it says (don't change the text) but that if one will simply compare Scripture with Scripture properly, (it will also say - tell us - what it means).

"...the new testament..."?

"...made partakers of their SPIRITUAL things" Rom. 15: 27.

Which of THEIR new testament's "things" are "spiritual" or are "spiritual" issues.

All of the following - and then some...

His forgiving their sins;

His giving them a new heart;

His making them the righteousness of God;

His being their God once more;

His dwelling in them;

Their unity;

And so on...

Paul was an able minister of those kinds of "spiritual things."

A better question is, though, why did he even bring all that up to begin with?

Because they were being legalistic towards him.

So he brings that up to remind them that just as they did not receive that through are the Law; they have no business treating him as if their acceptance of him is to be based on his meeting this legalistic standard of theirs.

For "...where the Spirit of the Lord is there liberty" - (which is one of these "spiritual things").

In fact, Paul has said far much more throughout his writings on all of these new testament's "spiritual things" the Gentiles have been made partakers of than some appear to have noted.

Two of the many in his writings, that come to mind being...

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

But they were being legalistic towards Paul...

2 Corinthians 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

Which is why he reminded them of all that, to begin with - because...

3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Acts 17: 11, 12.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Nope.

He said "able ministers of THE new testament.
QUOTE]


Hi , and Jerry S, is right on as TESTAMENT / DIATHEKE has many meanings , , like , WILL , COMPACT , COVENANT , TESTAMENT and ARRANGEMENT !!

In 2 Cor 3:6 and in 1 Cor 11:25 is also , the same Greek word is used , TESTAMENT / DIATHEKE which means ARRANGEMENT !!

You are just going COVENANT THEOLOGY / HYBRID like the Acts 28 er on us !!

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Hi , and Jerry S, is right on as TESTAMENT / DIATHEKE has many meanings , , like , WILL , COMPACT , COVENANT , TESTAMENT and ARRANGEMENT !!

In 2 Cor 3:6 and in 1 Cor 11:25 is also , the same Greek word is used , TESTAMENT / DIATHEKE which means ARRANGEMENT !!

You are just going COVENANT THEOLOGY / HYBRID like the Acts 28 er on us !!

dan p

That is just dumb on your part.

Neither the Reformed, nor the Acts 28ers, hold the view I laid out.

I based it on the doctrine taught by Paul on this in Romans - Philemon via word, phrase, verse, and flow of thought comparison.

Not on dictionaries.

Over relying on dictionaries over the above study approach, is the mark of the life-long amateur.

Acts 17: 11, 12, you amateur. :chuckle:
 

DAN P

Well-known member
That is just dumb on your part.

Neither the Reformed, nor the Acts 28ers, hold the view I laid out.

I based it on the doctrine taught by Paul on this in Romans - Philemon via word, phrase, verse, and flow of thought comparison.

Not on dictionaries.

Over relying on dictionaries over the above study approach, is the mark of the life-long amateur.

Acts 17: 11, 12, you amateur. :chuckle:



Hi and I am right as I know of Acts 28 er who would NEVER take the Lord's supper because of 1 Cor 11:25 , so who are you kidding ??

I chuckle at you instead , as I use the Greek text , try it some time an be ADVISED !!

Acts 28 er are over the place just as dispensationlists are today , and I mean you too !!

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Hi and I am right as I know of Acts 28 er who would NEVER take the Lord's supper because of 1 Cor 11:25 , so who are you kidding ??

I chuckle at you instead , as I use the Greek text , try it some time an be ADVISED !!

Acts 28 er are over the place just as dispensationlists are today , and I mean you too !!

dan p

You have got to be the most confused MAD I have ever dealt with.

I am well aware it is most MADs who rightly hold to the Lord's Supper and that only those MADs who are inconsistent in their study approach and Acts 28ers do not.

And over relying on the Greek is for amateurs.

The much sounder approach being...

1 - Let the words read exactly as written;

2 - Comparing their words, various word forms, phrases, passages, themes, subject matter and context with that of other passages.

3 - Doing so in light of what those two resulted in, in the end, only when consistently applied: a clear distinction in Scripture between Prophecy and Mystery.

I'll take that over your mis-fire of a Greek approach any day of the week.

Fact of the matter is that the Greek is much more helpful when its definitions are ignored and one instead compares where the same Greek word is found being used.

Which is what the word "Concordance" actually refers to - to words that concord.

That what?

What does the Scripture say, in plain English, about what a word like "concord" refers to - by - how - it - is - used - where - it - is - found being - used, as to what, and so on?

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

You are a life long amatuer. Plain and simple.

Amatuers ever over rely on "the Greek" and or endless books "about."

All that is often needed is no more than...

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Meaning, He basically compared the relevant passages with one another.

Allowing the passages themselves to interpret one another's intended word usages and resulting meanings.

You and I cannot but disagree on this.

I know various people from two different kinds of Acts 9 based assemblies on this particular study approach issue.

The one is ever a study of this or that Greek word, every meeting they hold.

In contrast, the other is ever about simply comparing the passages - throughout the whole of Scripture.

Guess which of the two ever know the Scripture ITSELF way better than the other?

The second one. The actual BIBLE students.

Because during passage comparison throughout the Scripture itself, one cannot but end up picking up on many many other seemingly unrelated things that later come to mind to inform one a bit much more on one thing or another one might not have thought on but for the reason of use of this approach.

Result? Guess which of the two is ever behind on the much finer distinctions within Prophecy and Mystery beyond The Basics?

The first one. The so called "experts in the Greek."

Because again - if one invests much of their time simply just reading and studying the Scripture itself as laid out in my above suggested approach, one ends up with a much fuller picture of things than one can ever hope to by ever having one's nose buried in endless books "about" and or ever being focused on isolating passages from their whole as you supposed "experts in the Greek" are ever doing.

The best your Greek and or books based kind can ever hope to do much of is basically parrot what you were taught or read "about" - which you then attempt to prove is your own via "the Greek."

Which is why you are agreed with, at times.

Because you are parroting to the choir.

I'm sure this will all go right past you, once more, given the failure your approach actually is.

Further, given that you are obviously too invested in your tradition by now.

It is what it is.

Rom. 14: 5, then - in memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
No, he isn't.

Jer 31:31 (KJV)
Heb 8:8 (KJV)

Very simple.





Confusion is when things are atomized and isolated and repeated 1000s of times. D'ism began because a person thought the Bible was confusing until in 1900s he came up with a system that organized it. It had 2 separate programs. He repeated this over and over and over. Many people today think this repetition is the Bible, because after all, a couple texts ARE there.

Understanding is when the authority materials (Bible verses) are compared with each other over and over, and when the apostles teaching is placed higher than our understanding of the OT directly. Then we can find passages in the NT that organize it's own thoughts. Gal 3-4 especially would be "in" this list.

It is total contradiction when people like STP quote Heb 8:8 over and over, but don't know that ch 11 says the promised land never was geographic! That there is a city above that is free and unshakeable.

A good answer is going to have many, many passages to build on, not this stuff STP does. His other fav is Mt 25:33 or something, in which an analogy of goats and sheep about nations is supposed to prove that Israel is a world kingdom in our future. It's like saying the US 1st Amendment is best found in a Picasso painting.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Confusion is when things are atomized and isolated and repeated 1000s of times. D'ism began because a person thought the Bible was confusing until in 1900s he came up with a system that organized it. It had 2 separate programs. He repeated this over and over and over. Many people today think this repetition is the Bible, because after all, a couple texts ARE there.

Understanding is when the authority materials (Bible verses) are compared with each other over and over, and when the apostles teaching is placed higher than our understanding of the OT directly. Then we can find passages in the NT that organize it's own thoughts. Gal 3-4 especially would be "in" this list.

It is total contradiction when people like STP quote Heb 8:8 over and over, but don't know that ch 11 says the promised land never was geographic! That there is a city above that is free and unshakeable.

A good answer is going to have many, many passages to build on, not this stuff STP does. His other fav is Mt 25:33 or something, in which an analogy of goats and sheep about nations is supposed to prove that Israel is a world kingdom in our future. It's like saying the US 1st Amendment is best found in a Picasso painting.


Hi and it is confusing , as it is the Holy Spirit that caused men to right and 2 Peter 1:21 has it wrong and DISPENSATIONALISM was written in the 1900 so , Eph e:1-10 and Rom 16:25 and 26 and Col 1:25 and 26 , need to be REDATED

So you believe in DOUBLE INSPIRATION ??

dan p
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Hi and it is confusing , as it is the Holy Spirit that caused men to right and 2 Peter 1:21 has it wrong and DISPENSATIONALISM was written in the 1900 so , Eph e:1-10 and Rom 16:25 and 26 and Col 1:25 and 26 , need to be REDATED

So you believe in DOUBLE INSPIRATION ??

dan p





The point being: there are not 2 programs in the NT mucking it up.
 
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