Isn't it reasonable to doubt Young Earth Creationism?

[Stripe]

Magnetism changes either side of mid-ocean ridges.

Sure, it "changes." The intensity changes. However, it does not "reverse," which was your initial claim.

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[Stripe]

Glad you are into FACTS JR. The only need for this theory that I can see for YEC's is to explain pock-marking of the moon and maybe the asteroids.

:AMR:

Do you know that water evaporates in the vacuum of space. Let's stretch all incredulity and say that water droplets made it to space. In seconds these would evaporate. That's the FACT.

Evaporated water.

Therefore, something. :idunno:

There is not enough stuff on earth to spray the sphere of space with the same amount of stuff that hit the moon.

:AMR:

What?

What this means is that 76000701 times more stuff goes past the moon than hits the moon. To my mind, this is as utterly impossible that so much stuff could be ejected from earth, as are mach 33 droplets.

Slow down. Use grammar.

What exactly is the issue here?

To think earth, not to mention Noah could survive these mach 33 jets.

This objection always makes me laugh. Darwinists suddenly assume the truth of not only the theory, but also the Bible, then assert that great amounts of energy used means certain death.

It's like: Wow, that rifle sends a bullet downrange at a huge velocity. How did the shooter survive?

:chuckle:

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[JudgeRightly]

Glad you are into FACTS JR. The only need for this theory that I can see for YEC's is to explain pock-marking of the moon and maybe the asteroids.

Do you know that water evaporates in the vacuum of space. Let's stretch all incredulity and say that water droplets made it to space. In seconds these would evaporate. That's the FACT.

Here is another fact. If stuff sprayed out of earth, and some collided with the moon, then we have to assume that the vast majority missed the moon if stuff sprayed randomly in all directions. There is not enough stuff on earth to spray the sphere of space with the same amount of stuff that hit the moon.

This comes from the inverse squared law, that the area squares with the distance. The moon is 384 400 km from earth. The area of space at this distance is 4 x pi x r squared where pi = 3.14159.

Sphere of space is thus 4 x 3.14159 x 384400 x 384 400 km squared = 1.86 raised to the power of 12 km squared. The surface area of the moon is only 38 million km squared. So divide sphere of space by half the surface area of moon = 48864/2 or 24432.

What this means is that 76000701 times more stuff goes past the moon than hits the moon. To my mind, this is as utterly impossible that so much stuff could be ejected from earth, as are mach 33 droplets.

With so much stuff being thrown out from earth, imagine the energy involved to do so. To think earth, not to mention Noah could survive these mach 33 jets and the sheer volume of stuff being thrown into space - would make me as a YEC want to look for a simpler theory. Such as the water fell from above, and rose from artesian springs from below, and flooded the earth. Forget the moon.

You're forgetting the amount of debris that would have been eroded away by the fountains that got launched into space, not the least of which makes up the asteroid belt, Ceres, and Pluto and its satellites.

 

[iouae]

You're forgetting the amount of debris that would have been eroded away by the fountains that got launched into space, not the least of which makes up the asteroid belt, Ceres, and Pluto and its satellites.

This would have meant an earth with twice the mass before the flood, which would have meant twice the gravity, and animals would have had to be twice as strong. No evidence of this.

Imagine a dinosaur pulled by such a massive earth. It would have been unable to move.

 

[JudgeRightly]

This would have meant an earth with twice the mass before the flood, which would have meant twice the gravity, and animals would have had to be twice as strong. No evidence of this.

Imagine a dinosaur pulled by such a massive earth. It would have been unable to move.

Sounds like someone needs to be shown how big pluto, charon, ceres, and the entire mass of the asteroid belt are compared to the size of the earth...

 

[JudgeRightly]

This would have meant an earth with twice the mass before the flood, which would have meant twice the gravity, and animals would have had to be twice as strong. No evidence of this.

Imagine a dinosaur pulled by such a massive earth. It would have been unable to move.

Sounds like someone needs to be shown how big pluto, charon, ceres, and the entire mass of the asteroid belt are compared to the size of the earth...

Basically, the total mass of debris ejected from the earth, which now forms the asteroid belt, Pluto, and Charon (not including comets, meteors, the water on Mars, and other debris) was ~0.295% of the Earth's original mass.

((approximate mass of the asteroid belt (about 3x10²¹ kg) + mass of Pluto (1.309x10²² kg) + mass of Charon (1.55x10²¹ kg))/(mass of asteroid belt, Pluto, Charon, and the Earth (5.972x10²⁴ kg) = 0.00294508518041 x 100 (convert to %) = 0.294508518041%

 

[iouae]

Basically, the total mass of debris ejected from the earth, which now forms the asteroid belt, Pluto, and Charon (not including comets, meteors, the water on Mars, and other debris) was about 0.294508518041% of the Earth's original mass.

((approximate mass of the asteroid belt (about 3x10²¹ kg) + mass of Pluto (1.309x10²² kg) + mass of Charon (1.55x10²¹ kg))/(mass of asteroid belt, Pluto, Charon, and the Earth (5.972x10²⁴ kg) = 0.00294508518041 x 100 (convert to %) = 0.294508518041%

First, I am impressed by you quoting big numbers, and FACTS. I stand corrected. But you have not included the mass of the rest of the stuff thrown off from earth which did not hit the moon, or make it to form Pluto and the asteroid belt.

Why are you a cosmocist - discriminating between heavenly bodies you think God made, and those naturally formed in the course of the history of the cosmos? I.e why are you not arguing that God created Pluto and the asteroid belt on Day 4?

 

[JudgeRightly]

First, I am impressed by you quoting big numbers, and FACTS. I stand corrected. But you have not included the mass of the rest of the stuff thrown off from earth which did not hit the moon, or make it to form Pluto and the asteroid belt.

Because compared to the masses of Pluto, Charon, and the asteroid belt, ("X*10²¹," "X*10²²," and "X*10²¹," respectively) and the earth ("X*10²⁴"), the mass of all the comets, water on mars, and the rest of the debris ejected (as far as I can tell, and I might be wrong on this... And considering that the average comet is around X*10¹⁴ kg, so the following number is a rather generous estimate) wouldn't equal more than X*10¹⁷ kg, which is only a tiny fraction of the total of the original mass of Earth. It's, for all intents and purposes, insignificant.

Why are you a cosmocist

A what now?

- discriminating between heavenly bodies you think God made, and those naturally formed in the course of the history of the cosmos?

God created 8 (8 is a significant number in the Bible: it represents new beginnings, infinity (turned on it's side, Jesus' name in Greek adds up to "888", etc.) planets with moons. (I'm not sure about Saturn's and Uranus's rings, haven't studied up too much on those, so I can't say either way if they were original or a result of the Flood.) Everything else in the solar system was formed at or shortly after (relatively speaking) the Flood.

I.e why are you not arguing that God created Pluto and the asteroid belt on Day 4?

Because Pluto might actually be made up of a billion or so comets, which would fit with the whole "water being ejected from the earth into space" idea of the HPT, which also explains the origin of comets as being from the earth.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/researchers-think-pluto-made-billions-comets-180969183/

God created 8 planets, and since He called His creation very good, because it was perfect, then it stands to reason that there wouldn't have been the risk of death from objects from space, meaning no meteorites or comets or asteroids would have existed at the time. But when the Fountains of the Great Deep broke forth, that's when all of that was formed, including but not limited to Pluto, Charon, other TNOs, when water was thrown to Mars, the Moon pummeled to the point which is how the mares were formed (which are basically molten points on the moon that have cooled (which is why they're darker), and there are not as many, if any at all, on the far side of the moon), objects that orbit the sun retrograde, etc.

 

[6days]

Why are you a cosmocist

A what now?

You know.... Don't you work in a salon at the mall painting toe nails?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Silly you. ...

Evolutionists can be scientists... some are. Not all scientists are evolutionists.

Then I strongly suggest you choose your words much more carefully.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Glad you are into FACTS JR. The only need for this theory that I can see for YEC's is to explain pock-marking of the moon and maybe the asteroids.

Do you know that water evaporates in the vacuum of space. Let's stretch all incredulity and say that water droplets made it to space. In seconds these would evaporate. That's the FACT.

Here is another fact. If stuff sprayed out of earth, and some collided with the moon, then we have to assume that the vast majority missed the moon if stuff sprayed randomly in all directions. There is not enough stuff on earth to spray the sphere of space with the same amount of stuff that hit the moon.

This comes from the inverse squared law, that the area squares with the distance. The moon is 384 400 km from earth. The area of space at this distance is 4 x pi x r squared where pi = 3.14159.

Sphere of space is thus 4 x 3.14159 x 384400 x 384 400 km squared = 1.86 raised to the power of 12 km squared. The surface area of the moon is only 38 million km squared. So divide sphere of space by half the surface area of moon = 48864/2 or 24432.

What this means is that 76000701 times more stuff goes past the moon than hits the moon. To my mind, this is as utterly impossible that so much stuff could be ejected from earth, as are mach 33 droplets.

With so much stuff being thrown out from earth, imagine the energy involved to do so. To think earth, not to mention Noah could survive these mach 33 jets and the sheer volume of stuff being thrown into space - would make me as a YEC want to look for a simpler theory. Such as the water fell from above, and rose from artesian springs from below, and flooded the earth. Forget the moon.

By the way, water boils in a vacuum (at room temperature), and continues to do so, cooling it, until it reaches what is called the "triple point", where it exists in all three states (solid, liquid, gas) simultaneously, where the water both boils and freezes at the same time, leaving you (in a vacuum) with ice crystals, which is essentially what comets are...

You could say that comets are just dirty snowballs, but I'd say that Pluto is a dirty snowball, and comets are just dirty snowflakes...

Now, "supercritical" water, which is what was under the hydroplates is what was released when the Fountains of the Great Deep broke forth. A supercritical fluid "is any substance at a temperature and pressure above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not exist. It can effuse through solids like a gas, and dissolve materials like a liquid." (Wikipedia, "supercritical fluid")

When the "fountains" broke forth, the pressure caused the supercritical water beneath the hydroplate to shoot up (because of the extreme intense pressure its' under, being under a 60-mile thick shell of rock, which puts about 372,000psi on the supercritical water, FAR above water's critical pressure.

This page explains the physics of the "fountain".

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/TechnicalNotes6.html#wp14800338 there's too much there for me to explain here.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Glad you are into FACTS JR. The only need for this theory that I can see for YEC's is to explain pock-marking of the moon and maybe the asteroids.

Do you know that water evaporates in the vacuum of space. Let's stretch all incredulity and say that water droplets made it to space. In seconds these would evaporate. That's the FACT.

Here is another fact. If stuff sprayed out of earth, and some collided with the moon, then we have to assume that the vast majority missed the moon if stuff sprayed randomly in all directions. There is not enough stuff on earth to spray the sphere of space with the same amount of stuff that hit the moon.

This comes from the inverse squared law, that the area squares with the distance. The moon is 384 400 km from earth. The area of space at this distance is 4 x pi x r squared where pi = 3.14159.

Sphere of space is thus 4 x 3.14159 x 384400 x 384 400 km squared = 1.86 raised to the power of 12 km squared. The surface area of the moon is only 38 million km squared. So divide sphere of space by half the surface area of moon = 48864/2 or 24432.

What this means is that 76000701 times more stuff goes past the moon than hits the moon. To my mind, this is as utterly impossible that so much stuff could be ejected from earth, as are mach 33 droplets.

With so much stuff being thrown out from earth, imagine the energy involved to do so. To think earth, not to mention Noah could survive these mach 33 jets and the sheer volume of stuff being thrown into space - would make me as a YEC want to look for a simpler theory. Such as the water fell from above, and rose from artesian springs from below, and flooded the earth. Forget the moon.

By the way, water boils in a vacuum (at room temperature), and continues to do so, cooling it, until it reaches what is called the "triple point", where it exists in all three states (solid, liquid, gas) simultaneously, where the water both boils and freezes at the same time, leaving you (in a vacuum) with ice crystals, which is essentially what comets are...

You could say that comets are just dirty snowballs, but I'd say that Pluto is a dirty snowball, and comets are just dirty snowflakes...

Now, "supercritical" water, which is what was under the hydroplates is what was released when the Fountains of the Great Deep broke forth. A supercritical fluid "is any substance at a temperature and pressure above its critical point, where distinct liquid and gas phases do not exist. It can effuse through solids like a gas, and dissolve materials like a liquid." (Wikipedia, "supercritical fluid")

When the "fountains" broke forth, the pressure caused the supercritical water beneath the hydroplate to shoot up (because of the extreme intense pressure its' under, being under a 60-mile thick shell of rock, which puts about 372,000psi on the supercritical water, FAR above water's critical pressure.

This page explains the physics of the "fountain".

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/TechnicalNotes6.html#wp14800338 there's too much there for me to explain here.

Tl;dr:

The escape velocity of the fountains of the great deep was around not Mach 33, as you suggested to be ridiculous, but Mach 174.5 (roughly).

 

[Jose Fly]

Accusation? I don't think that is quite the right word. That word implies what I said has not been proven.

You claimed that scientists "start with the conclusion then try make the data fit" [sic].

That's a very serious accusation of malfeasance. Do you have any actual evidence to back up that accusation?

If you aren't aware of all the false claims evolutionists made about Neandertals, you could ask by saying " I am not familiar with that. Do you have some sources to back up your claims?".

Again, this isn't about scientists debating issues and some of them ending up being wrong and others ending up being right. That's just everyday science.

This is about you accusing a group of professionals of unethical practices in their work.

Kudos to the few evolutionists who put science ahead of their belief system.

How do you know it was only a "few" who were correct? Did you conduct a survey? Did you do a quantitative literature review?

However it was only evolutionists who made all the false claims without a a shred of evidence. Evolutionists want...they need creatures who are human like, yet inarticulate, dimwitted, lack culture etc... so they try get fossils to sing their tune.

More accusations. As before, do you have any actual substance to support them, or are you completely lacking any sense of moral obligation?

 

[iouae]

Because compared to the masses of Pluto, Charon, and the asteroid belt, ("X*10²¹," "X*10²²," and "X*10²¹," respectively) and the earth ("X*10²⁴"), the mass of all the comets, water on mars, and the rest of the debris ejected (as far as I can tell, and I might be wrong on this... And considering that the average comet is around X*10¹⁴ kg, so the following number is a rather generous estimate) wouldn't equal more than X*10¹⁷ kg, which is only a tiny fraction of the total of the original mass of Earth. It's, for all intents and purposes, insignificant.



A what now?



God created 8 (8 is a significant number in the Bible: it represents new beginnings, infinity (turned on it's side, Jesus' name in Greek adds up to "888", etc.) planets with moons. (I'm not sure about Saturn's and Uranus's rings, haven't studied up too much on those, so I can't say either way if they were original or a result of the Flood.) Everything else in the solar system was formed at or shortly after (relatively speaking) the Flood.



Because Pluto might actually be made up of a billion or so comets, which would fit with the whole "water being ejected from the earth into space" idea of the HPT, which also explains the origin of comets as being from the earth.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/researchers-think-pluto-made-billions-comets-180969183/

God created 8 planets, and since He called His creation very good, because it was perfect, then it stands to reason that there wouldn't have been the risk of death from objects from space, meaning no meteorites or comets or asteroids would have existed at the time. But when the Fountains of the Great Deep broke forth, that's when all of that was formed, including but not limited to Pluto, Charon, other TNOs, when water was thrown to Mars, the Moon pummeled to the point which is how the mares were formed (which are basically molten points on the moon that have cooled (which is why they're darker), and there are not as many, if any at all, on the far side of the moon), objects that orbit the sun retrograde, etc.

JR thank you for your reply, and the many actual FACTS in your post.

I am not fond of gematria or ascribing significance to numbers, so I do not know how many planets there were originally. I still have a problem with earth being able to throw rocks at the moon all by itself, but there is another way that earth could throw rocks and stuff at the moon. This is how, and this video is closer to my way of thinking about the formation of the moon and solar system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2lRpiediP8

 

[iouae]

Tl;dr:

The escape velocity of the fountains of the great deep was around not Mach 33, as you suggested to be ridiculous, but Mach 174.5 (roughly).

"On the surface of the Earth, the escape velocity is about 11.2 km/s, which is approximately 33 times the speed of sound (Mach 33) and several times the muzzle velocity of a rifle bullet (up to 1.7 km/s). However, at 9,000 km altitude in "space", it is slightly less than 7.1 km/s."

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=escape+velocity+in+mach&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[JudgeRightly]

"On the surface of the Earth, the escape velocity is about 11.2 km/s, which is approximately 33 times the speed of sound (Mach 33) and several times the muzzle velocity of a rifle bullet (up to 1.7 km/s). However, at 9,000 km altitude in "space", it is slightly less than 7.1 km/s."

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=escape+velocity+in+mach&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Either way, the Fountains of the Great Deep VASTLY exceeded those speeds.

 

[JudgeRightly]

JR thank you for your reply, and the many actual FACTS in your post.

I am not fond of gematria or ascribing significance to numbers, so I do not know how many planets there were originally. I still have a problem with earth being able to throw rocks at the moon all by itself, but there is another way that earth could throw rocks and stuff at the moon. This is how, and this video is closer to my way of thinking about the formation of the moon and solar system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2lRpiediP8

HPT also explains the tilt of the earth, which was caused by the shedding mass and fountains of the GD, among other things.

The Bible says that God made the earth on Day One, and the Moon on the fourth day, and man on the sixth (6 is the number for man, in the bible, God is 888, antichrist is a man trying to imitate God, 666, 7 is perfection, 12 is tribes of Israel, months in a year, and plenty of other numbers with significant meaning in the Bible.) day, at the beginning of creation.

Which doesn't allow for what is in that video.

 

[iouae]

When the "fountains" broke forth, the pressure caused the supercritical water beneath the hydroplate to shoot up (because of the extreme intense pressure its' under, being under a 60-mile thick shell of rock, which puts about 372,000psi on the supercritical water, FAR above water's critical pressure.

Do you know why all droplets of rain fall relatively slowly? "At sea level, a large raindrop about 5 millimeters across (house-fly size) falls at the rate of 9 meters per second (20 miles per hour)".

Ans: friction or drag or wind resistance. Drag increases exponentially (squared) with velocity.

I know it is impossible for a drop of water ejected at any velocity to rise higher than 1km, and it certainly cannot escape earth's atmosphere.

So even if a water droplet was shot up at mach 33 it would have slowed to the speed of a falling raindrop in less than 1km/mile.

I am making up the distance, but I KNOW that a single drop going at ANY speed will be slowed to 20 miles per hour in less than 1 mile through earth's atmosphere. Thus it is impossible for water, ejected from earth's surface at ANY speed, to escape earth.

Why do you think they use lead or uranium in bullets? Because these have density which does not bleed off speed like much less dense and small water droplets would.

 

[iouae]

HPT also explains the tilt of the earth, which was caused by the shedding mass and fountains of the GD, among other things.

The Bible says that God made the earth on Day One, and the Moon on the fourth day, and man on the sixth (6 is the number for man, in the bible, God is 888, antichrist is a man trying to imitate God, 666, 7 is perfection, 12 is tribes of Israel, months in a year, and plenty of other numbers with significant meaning in the Bible.) day, at the beginning of creation.

Which doesn't allow for what is in that video.

Did you enjoy "The Bible Code"?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you know why all droplets of rain fall relatively slowly? "At sea level, a large raindrop about 5 millimeters across (house-fly size) falls at the rate of 9 meters per second (20 miles per hour)".

Ans: friction or drag or wind resistance. Drag increases exponentially (squared) with velocity.

I know it is impossible for a drop of water ejected at any velocity to rise higher than 1km, and it certainly cannot escape earth's atmosphere.

So even if a water droplet was shot up at mach 33 it would have slowed to the speed of a falling raindrop in less than 1km/mile.

I am making up the distance, but I KNOW that a single drop going at ANY speed will be slowed to 20 miles per hour in less than 1 mile through earth's atmosphere. Thus it is impossible for water, ejected from earth's surface at ANY speed, to escape earth.

Why do you think they use lead or uranium in bullets? Because these have density which does not bleed off speed like much less dense and small water droplets would.

Do you know why all droplets of rain fall relatively slowly? "At sea level, a large raindrop about 5 millimeters across (house-fly size) falls at the rate of 9 meters per second (20 miles per hour)".

Ans: friction or drag or wind resistance. Drag increases exponentially (squared) with velocity.

I know it is impossible for a drop of water ejected at any velocity to rise higher than 1km, and it certainly cannot escape earth's atmosphere.

So even if a water droplet was shot up at mach 33 it would have slowed to the speed of a falling raindrop in less than 1km/mile.

I am making up the distance, but I KNOW that a single drop going at ANY speed will be slowed to 20 miles per hour in less than 1 mile through earth's atmosphere. Thus it is impossible for water, ejected from earth's surface at ANY speed, to escape earth.

Why do you think they use lead or uranium in bullets? Because these have density which does not bleed off speed like much less dense and small water droplets would.

You're not grasping the concept of what happened with the fountains. We're not talking about normal water.

We're talking about supercritical water, which is neither liquid nor gas, and has completely different properties than liquid water.

Go read through this page, again if you have to.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/TechnicalNotes6.html#wp14800338