Is White Privilege Real?

[ok doser]

Sure. Except in social psychology experiments, though, all other things will pretty much never be equal.

How much better would Adolf Hitler Johnson have to be than John Smith to get an interview?

interesting question - being saddled with "adolf hitler" and then managing to persevere and excel despite might be indicative of desirable qualities


i spose it might make a difference if i'm hiring for a call center, a fry cook, a software engineer or a neurosurgeon

 

[glassjester]

But you're still putting in a little distance, a little sanitation, gj. People aren't responding to an inherent problem with phonemes, they're responding to the inference of them in relation to the race or ethnicity of the person.

We don't know that unless a follow-up study addresses that, specifically. For example, by having the independent variable be the name, and having race as a control (both applicants are black) in the study.

And that's worse than unfair, it's illegal.

I'd say unfair is worse than illegal, but I'm just nitpicking.

I didn't think you did. But the point isn't how either of us feel about it, but what people have and continue to do about it.

Then you're just not paying attention. All the data comes back that white names get more attention and callbacks, to name one. Look up cases and investigations involving housing stings relating to equal housing provisions. Look at the data the employer friendly EEOC has about corporate misbehavior along racial lines, and so on.

Alright.

 

[glassjester]

interesting question - being saddled with "adolf hitler" and then managing to persevere and excel despite might be indicative of desirable qualities

Would you say the same for Daquan?

i spose it might make a difference if i'm hiring for a call center, a fry cook, a software engineer or a neurosurgeon

Yeah - and there's always the possibility of asking in the interview if he'd be willing to use a stage name. Especially if it's something related to customer service or sales.

On a related note - whenever I get somebody with a thick Indian accent on the phone for customer service, they usually provide names like "Joe" or "Mary." What's that about?

 

[ok doser]

...they're responding to the inference of (the names) in relation to the race or ethnicity of the person.

another unproven declaration

All the data comes back that white names get more attention and callbacks, to name one.

feel free to provide the data showing that "white" names that evoke notions of ignorance like bubba or cletus were examined

that's right, you can't

 

[Town Heretic]

We don't know that unless a follow-up study addresses that, specifically. For example, by having the independent variable be the name, and having race as a control (both applicants are black) in the study.

We absolutely know, gj. That's what the differing responses tell us where resumes are only distinguished by name. And it's data supported by all sorts of other systemic discriminatory practice amply evidenced by any number or reputable studies and organizations, many of whom I've noted and linked to.

I'd say unfair is worse than illegal, but I'm just nitpicking.

It's unfair if you work hard at something but aren't appreciated for it. It's illegal if you aren't paid.

 

[ok doser]

We absolutely know, gj.

well, no


no more than you "absolutely knew" that hillary was gonna beat trump :chuckle:

 

[glassjester]

We absolutely know, gj. That's what the differing responses tell us where resumes are only distinguished by name. And it's data supported by all sorts of other systemic discriminatory practice amply evidenced by any number or reputable studies and organizations, many of whom I've noted and linked to.

Yeah, I'm reading this right now: http://www.huduser.gov/portal/Publications/pdf/HUD-514_HDS2012.pdf

It's unfair if you work hard at something but aren't appreciated for it. It's illegal if you aren't paid.

Sure, but it's also unfair. If I'm the victim of an action that was illegal, but totally fair... then who cares?

 

[Danoh]

You know the father named his son Sue because he knew he wouldn't be there for him, and wanted him to get tough.

I wonder how that particular motivation might relate to so-called "black names."

I often ask people I meet what their name means.

Most don't know.

Yesterday, I asked a young woman if she knew what her name "Hafta" meant.

Lol, she replied "I don't know - you're the one asking; look it up..."

I do just that.

It means "young lioness."

Lol - God bless her - obviously, she lived up to its' meaning :chuckle:

You also, at times, end up in interesting conversations with people, as a result.

One old woman in a curio shop who I asked that question of some years ago, turned out to have met the late great Escape Artist Extraordinaire: Harry Houdini.

Next thing I knew; she pulled out all these great pictures of him at a birthday party her well to do parents had made possible for her.

Lamentably, I heard some years later, she was murdered during a robbery in her store...

I'm ever grateful I'd been curious about her name's origin enough to have paused and asked her, that day...

 

[ok doser]

i hafta go now :wave2:

 

[Town Heretic]

Yeah, I'm reading this right now: http://www.huduser.gov/portal/Publications/pdf/HUD-514_HDS2012.pdf

Information is always a plus. Was 2012 the most recent one you could find?

Sure, but it's also unfair. If I'm the victim of an action that was illegal, but totally fair... then who cares?

I'm not fan of unfair, I was just illustrating my belief that illegal tends to be worse. That said, both stink. I guess you could say the severity of illegal tends to be worse, but you frequently have no redress with unfair, so...six of one/half a dozen of the other, I suppose.

 

[patrick jane]

I often ask people I meet what their name means.

Most don't know.

Yesterday, I asked a young woman if she knew what her name "Hafta" meant.

Lol, she replied "I don't know - you're the one asking; look it up..."

I do just that.

It means "young lioness."

Lol - God bless her - obviously, she lived up to its' meaning :chuckle:

You also, at times, end up in interesting conversations with people, as a result.

One old woman in a curio shop who I asked that question of some years ago, turned out to have met the late great Escape Artist Extraordinaire: Harry Houdini.

Next thing I knew; she pulled out all these great pictures of him at a birthday party her well to do parents had made possible for her.

Lamentably, I heard some years later, she was murdered during a robbery in her store...

I'm ever grateful I'd been curious about her name's origin enough to have paused and asked her, that day...

You're so sweet DaNOH

 

[glassjester]

Information is always a plus. Was 2012 the most recent one you could find?

It may not turn out to be. It's just the first one I found. I'll dig around some more.

Here's the best summary of the rental data. There's a similar chart summarizing the buying data a few pages down.

This does show a bias. And they cast a pretty large net with this study - 84 sites, in 28 different metropolitan areas. The differences are slight, I think. The most noticeable is the 12.8% difference in the number of times a Hispanic tester was told about other available units, when renting, compared to white testers.

I'm not fan of unfair, I was just illustrating my belief that illegal tends to be worse. That said, both stink. I guess you could say the severity of illegal tends to be worse, but you frequently have no redress with unfair, so...six of one/half a dozen of the other, I suppose.

For the most part, yes. I think the goal of law is to uphold what is fair. When they disagree (legality and fairness), I'd rather be treated fairly than merely legally.

 

[kmoney]

Btw, it's about time for Trayvon's killer to make the news again !!!

I hope I never have to hear about that idiot again. lain:

 

[kmoney]

But parents' choices do affect their children.

The boy named Sue said that if he ever has a son, he'll name him anything but Sue!

I wasn't saying anything about what does happen. I'm talking about what should. You can't accuse black people for not working hard enough to escape their circumstances and then ignore or even support bias against people who you assume are coming from that situation based on a name.

 

[kmoney]

what mental image do you get from "trayvon"?

:idunno: I don't know if I have an image but it would make me think it's someone from an inner-city.

But even if it does bring up an image, should that be a factor in hiring?

if you were in HR on a hiring committee and you had a choice between applicants with the following names (and all other things being equal), which would you choose?

1. Bob
2. Trayvon
3. Bubba
4. Adolf Hitler

:idunno: I'd try to avoid making a decision based on name. I wasn't really kidding when I suggested earlier that maybe the initial round of the hiring process should avoid looking at names.

If I absolutely had to choose based on name then I'd probably lean toward Bob or Trayvon.

 

[glassjester]

I wasn't saying anything about what does happen. I'm talking about what should. You can't accuse black people for not working hard enough to escape their circumstances and then ignore or even support bias against people who you assume are coming from that situation based on a name.

I'm not ignoring (and definitely not supporting) any bias against names. In fact I stated the opposite. I think it's unfair and it shouldn't happen.

I also said that there hasn't been any evidence presented so far that would suggest that name discrimination is exclusive to "black names."

 

[Town Heretic]

It may not turn out to be. It's just the first one I found. I'll dig around some more.

I'll help you with that, encouraged by the effort. Now look to page 16 of your report and you'll get some information that's a bit less encouraging.

Finally, in about two-thirds of in-person visits, one tester is shown more units than his or her partner,with whites significantly more likely to be favored than blacks or Asians. As Exhibit ES-8 details, blackand Asian renters are shown significantly fewer homes than equally qualified whites. Specifically, blacksare shown about one fewer home for every three in-person visits; Asians are shown one fewer home forevery two in-person visits.​

One thing to keep in mind is you've chosen a category of example that's been declining for a long while due to stiff laws and repeated sting operations by any number of groups. And even then, even this late in the game, you're seeing examples that are troubling, like the fact that non-whites are appreciably less likely to be helped by the agent showing a thing he should be motivated to move.

Speaking of HUD, here's a wider net of theirs related a year later (link):

The Urban Institute, which conducted the study, employed a “paired testing” methodology in which researchers compared the treatment of white and minority homeseekers in a nationally representative sample of 28 metropolitan areas.* Of the more than 8,000 paired tests, two trained individuals (one white and the other black, Hispanic, or Asian), contacted a housing provider to inquire about a unit randomly selected from recently advertised homes and apartments. The two testers in each pair were matched on gender, age and family composition and assigned the same financial characteristics. With each tester presenting as unambiguously and equally well qualified to rent or buy the advertised unit, testers independently recorded the treatment they experienced, including information about all the homes or apartments recommended and shown.
Key findings of the report include:

• Taking into account the ability to make an appointment, the availability of units and homes, and the agent’s willingness to show units, minority renters and homebuyers are told about and shown fewer homes and apartments.

Black

• Black renters who contact agents about recently advertised housing units learn about 11% fewer available units and are shown roughly 4% fewer units.
• Black homebuyers who contact agents about recently advertised homes for sale learn about 17% fewer available homes and are shown about 18% fewer units.

Asian

• Asian renters who contact agents about recently advertised housing units learn about 10% fewer available units and are shown nearly 7% fewer units.
• Asian homebuyers who contact agents about recently advertised homes for sale learn about 15% fewer available homes and are shown nearly 19% fewer units.

Hispanic

• Hispanic renters who contact agents about recently advertised housing units learn about 12% fewer available units and are shown roughly 7% fewer units.
• The difference in treatment for Hispanic homebuyers is not statistically significant.

Among the measures of change over the most recent decade, only discrimination for availability of the advertised unit has declined. Black renters today appear less likely than a decade ago to be told that advertised units are unavailable. Asian renters are more likely than a decade ago to be shown fewer units but they are less likely to experience adverse treatment when making future arrangements with the agent. Changes in other measures of rental discrimination are not statistically significant. For changes in sales discrimination over the most recent decade, the authors find less evidence of meaningful progress. The only statistically significant change is for Hispanics, who are less likely than a decade ago to be denied financing help compared to equally-qualified white home buyers.

So overall there was a significant issue, comparatively, with minority renters and home buyers. And that's just one strand of the privilege distinction.

 

[ok doser]

:idunno: I don't know if I have an image but it would make me think it's someone from an inner-city.

But even if it does bring up an image, should that be a factor in hiring?

i spose that depends

is it unfair to say that "inner city" tends to be be low achievement, high crime, ignorant and racist?

I think the goal of law is to uphold what is fair. When they disagree (legality and fairness), I'd rather be treated fairly than merely legally.

i have no problems with the law regulating the government - iow, civil rights legislation is just and appropriate when it forces government hiring practices and government housing to be fair and unbiased

what i object to is that civil rights legislation increasingly regulates private behavior, including private businesses

 

[glassjester]

what i object to is that civil rights legislation increasingly regulates private behavior, including private businesses

The law regulates plenty of private behavior, doesn't it?

 

[ok doser]

The law regulates plenty of private behavior, doesn't it?

it does

what did you have in mind?