Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I do. What of it?
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
all three are cases where belief is held without the lack of evidence or argument for the opposing belief
in all three cases, i have consciously chosen to investigate and in some cases, modify my beliefs
to return to belief in God (which is where i think this started), i could consciously choose to reject God
I consciously choose not to
No, I could not but thanks for asking....I guess? Somehow I sense a touch of insult in your post, almost as if it’s my own fault because I didn’t try hard enough. I tried to reconcile those many bible faults, like the one under discussion here for a long time, but I was not able to do so and had to be honest with myself when the evidence became to great. Perhaps you’ll have better luck.
Maybe you’ll be able to understand how love hates or a gracious Father kills his own children and then tortures them for all eternity along with his worst enemy.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Maybe one day you'll be brought to your knees, and admit you don't understand what is written in the Bible because you don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Once I was blind, but now I see......is a truth waiting to be discovered.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That's because you have it backwards.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
God the Father doesn’t “kill His own children and then torture them for all eternity along with His worst enemy”.
The wages of sin is death. Man killed and kills himself, without exception. And the aeviternal (NOT eternal, which is impossible) torment those in the lake of fire suffer is at their own hands while God’s mercy endlessly rejoices against that everlasting judgment.
When one can’t even remotely represent ECT (I hate that monicker, BTW) for what it actually is, then it’s no wonder there’s an irrational and emotional response of rejection. But that’s on anyone who mischaracterizes ECT as you and others have done.
God is NOT roasting the impenitent over an everlasting bonfire as marshmallows for His eventual midnight S’Mores snack.
God is the consuming fire. The impenitent are not ontologically within that fire because they frustrated grace and rejected the faith that would hypostatically join them to the Son and be IN Christ. So they are not in the presence (prosopon) of God but in the presence (enopion) of God. Being only “before” him rather than “in” Him, the purging of the fire (which is puros in Greek, meaning purify) cannot ever purge them. The torment is that they cannot be thoroughly cleansed of their own sin and iniquity because they aren’t IN Christ.
But it is God’s mercy that they have any relief at all from the consuming fire that is His presence to and for them. This mercy rejoices against judgment on their behalf for all aeviternity. But they can never know the partaking of the divine nature that is reserved for those who are translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. The impenitent and unbelieving cannot have their ontological existence changed to be compatible with God’s divinity. So God only “saves” them from the very worst of not even being in the fire.
You have NO idea how loving and merciful and omni-benevolent this is, for you don’t know what ECT actually is according to the lexicography of the divinely inspired text. So you likely embrace either Universalism or Annihilationism, both of which are ancient and heinous heresies that are not Christian.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
good luck getting artie to understand that
glorydaz
Well-known member
And yet, Arty constantly rejects eternal torment in favor of either annihilationism or universalism for the very reasons Pneuma outlined.Why bring up Arthur Brain?
PPS was responding to Guyver.
Even in this very thread, a few pages ago, he suggested that God (could) annihilate those who reject, stating that it would be preferable to eternal torment (which isn't possible due to the three times Jesus said (and I'll paraphrase) "let this cup pass from Me if there's another way to save mankind from hell, but if not, Your will be done, Father," and then He went to the cross.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You're incorrect. You're mistaking AB's questions to you with his personal beliefs. You chose not to answer his question concerning what you could accept.
Your comment about the cup passing has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I'm not sure what you think it shows about Hell or ECT.
In fact, I'm thinking Artie is closer to what PPS is talking about than you and Doser are.
You are wrong.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
because Pneuma's description of someone with a cartoon version understanding of ECT seems to fit artie to a T
Hey JR - do you think scripture describes a hell with little demons and pitchforks?
i don't
artie seems to
watched a Robin Williams movie several years ago - i was subbing for an art teacher and that's what he left - watched the same 40 minutes five times that day, went to the town library afterwards and got the DVD
What Dreams May Come
highly recommend, but mention it here because the scenes of Williams finding his dead wife in hell (spoiler - no demons with pitchforks) still resonate
in fact, i may watch it tonight :wave2:
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I've heard of that movie, a YouTuber (someone who makes YouTube videos) I'm subscribed to used some of the music from that movie as his intro/outro music.
Was it any good? Nothing that's not family friendly?
Exactly.
Every time I've described Hell/the Lake of Fire, I always do my best to make it sound like the loneliest place ever. You go there, it's literally just you and you alone, no friends, no family, no enemies, no drugs, no porn, no booze, nada.
Just you. Just the way you wanted it.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
The reason for the aloneness you describe is because after physical death and judgement, the hypostasis of an impentient human has nothing to which it can be conjoined. No hypostatic union with Christ, no perichoresis with other Believers, and no ability to have horizontal communion with others. There’s just isolated everlasting existence apart from the presence (prosopon) of the Lord.
So horrific. No communion of any kind on any level. All the comfort there is is the flames of the fire, and that’s torment because iniquity and sin will never be purged by that fire. There’s no means of administering anything but mercy. Only God’s mercy is any manner of abatement for the self-inflicted torment.
So sad.
And Arty calls that "torture"...
Or, rather, he tries to make it sound like that torment is God torturing those who will experience that, when He has ceased from ever interacting with them.
There's only two options, the way I see it:
Option A: "Your will be done" - [insert human being here], to God prior to the person's physical death
Option B: "Your will be done" - God, to the unrepentant sinner on Judgment day.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
yes, i'd recommend it, but not for kids younger than high school age - a lot of disturbing imagery - this was a rare Williams film - a serious work, not comedy
I cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One whose very essence is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages.
God’s punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour.
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
God’s punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour.
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
"As long as there is any hate in us we are not ready for heaven, not as long as we're shutting the golden doors on anyone else...the heavenly banquet cannot begin until we are all there, and I can greet with love...everybody who has caused me pain, and call out a welcome to them all. The heavenly banquet cannot begin until all those whom I have hurt are ready to welcome me, in all my flawed and contradictory humanness... Belief in hell is lack of faith because it attributes more power to Satan than to God...but it is God who has the last word! God is not going to abandon creation, nor the people up for trial in criminal court, nor the Shiites, nor the communists, or the warmongers, nor the greedy and corrupt people in high places, nor the dope pushers, nor you, nor me. Bitter tears of repentance may be shed before we can join the celebration, but it won't be complete until we are all there." -Madeleine L'Engle-
"I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28).
"For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God—and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father—He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family."
"The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again." –Dr. William Barclay-
"Thou, O Father, wilt not be angry with thy child because he thought—and tried to bid others to think just and noble things of thee; though, O Savior, wilt not frown at him because he trusted in the infinitude of thy compassion; and thou, O Holy Spirit, whose image is the soft stealing of the dew and the golden hovering of the dove, wilt know that if he erred it was because he fixed his eyes, not on the glaring and baleful meteors of anathematizing orthodoxy, but on the star of Bethlehem and the clouds that began to shine above the coming of the Lord; and that—if perchance he erred—the light which led astray was light from Heaven." –Canon F.W. Farrar-
"The Spirit of the Lord speaks within my soul and says, “Within the breast of every man is the divine image of God (living God), in whose image and likeness he was made, that sin is a perversion and sickness an imposter, and that the grace and power of God through the Holy Ghost delivers man from all bondage and darkness, and man in all his nature rises into union and communion with God and becomes one with Him the truest sense." –John G. Lake-
"I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28).
"For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God—and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father—He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family."
"The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again." –Dr. William Barclay-
"Thou, O Father, wilt not be angry with thy child because he thought—and tried to bid others to think just and noble things of thee; though, O Savior, wilt not frown at him because he trusted in the infinitude of thy compassion; and thou, O Holy Spirit, whose image is the soft stealing of the dew and the golden hovering of the dove, wilt know that if he erred it was because he fixed his eyes, not on the glaring and baleful meteors of anathematizing orthodoxy, but on the star of Bethlehem and the clouds that began to shine above the coming of the Lord; and that—if perchance he erred—the light which led astray was light from Heaven." –Canon F.W. Farrar-
"The Spirit of the Lord speaks within my soul and says, “Within the breast of every man is the divine image of God (living God), in whose image and likeness he was made, that sin is a perversion and sickness an imposter, and that the grace and power of God through the Holy Ghost delivers man from all bondage and darkness, and man in all his nature rises into union and communion with God and becomes one with Him the truest sense." –John G. Lake-
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
This, coming from someone who only recently stated how he'd laugh alongside God at FL suffering in hell and has repeatedly said through the years how much he looks forward to other posters burning there. Don't bother pretending that PPS's post reflected your views cos that ain't fooling anybody you obsessive crank.
If I had a "cartoon" understanding then laughably, that would reflect the more fundamentalist views although even then there's nothing about being prodded by demons with pitchforks, that's all on you, ya dope. If I had this "cartoon understanding" then I'd sound like a chick tract.
:freak:
Maybe if you weren't so keen to high five your little bud on every given occasion you'd have seen his post for the trolling crock that it is.
Which is an entirely subjective view on both amid a plethora of others. Some people in my former church ascribed to similar but couldn't offer any real support for it. A few weren't comfortable with the idea that God would cast people into literal fire to burn although plenty did believe just that. One time four people got up to give a testimony and at the end of each they described hell/the lof. The first said hell was literal fire. The second, like you, described it as a place of loneliness with no relief. The third actually thought hell was a mix of both psychological and physical suffering and the last described hell as a burning place that would be cast into another burning place, a literal lake of fire. It wasn't long after that I left that church and one thing that stuck out was that if "hell" was such a place to be avoided then why was everyone not on the same page as to exactly what it is? How many different ideas on it are on this forum alone, just from those who believe in eternal torment?
Your latter is obviously ridiculous. An atheist isn't wanting to end up in a state as you describe, they don't expect there to be an afterlife at all. Saying that people "want" the above is as callous as it is absurd.