glorydaz
Well-known member
I am dead, and my life is hid with Christ in God. :thumb:
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
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I am dead, and my life is hid with Christ in God. :thumb:
Rosenritter
New member
Glory dear, you missed the boldface emphasis. The point was not the "why" but the "thou" ...
If God had raised up Samuel, he wouldn't be asking that question now, would he? He would say 'The LORD hath sent me because ..." and not "why hast thou disquieted me" .... that thou is Saul, not God.
It wasn't God doing the disquieting, rather this Samuel gave credit for power of the act to Saul and the witch.
Rosenritter
New member
If you do not attribute the poltergeist-style moving objects to the work of devils, what do you attribute it towards? Windstorms? Angels at play? Devils can behave in all variety of manner Daz.
If Satan has no inside information, then what of the several previously-cited New Testament examples where the devil-possessed identified and shouted out "Here comes the Son of God" and the like from a distance? You aren't a member of the spirit world Daz, so given that you aren't a first-hand witness, I'll take what the New Testament gives as it gives it.
The examples of moving objects (and broken glass) weren't from television. I could name the people it happened to, some of those people I've known for many years on a first-name see-every-day basis.
But yet you say only the LORD has power over life and death, but you allow the witch to summon the dead without God. The apparition of Samuel (which was only visible to the witch, or at least she claims it was) didn't say that God raised him, or that God sent him, but that Saul and the witch disquieted him.
So here's a real question for you: if "Samuel' was sent to Saul for the purpose of spurring him to repentance, then how come:
1) "Samuel" never preached a message of repentance?
2) "Samuel" was only visible to the witch?
3) "Samuel" gave credit for the summoning to the witch, rather than clarifying that he was sent by the LORD?
4) "Samuel" didn't condemn the practice of necromancy, just to keep the record straight?
Rosenritter
New member
And some people fall for that deception easily:
2Co 11:13-15
(13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
You say it, but you fall short of realizing the implications of what you just said. The devil can transform himself into the likeness of a prophet, most especially when it only has to be seen by a single witch. Your strongest premise seems to be the declaration that anything that declares itself to be a friendly spirit must therefore be a friendly spirit.
1Jn 4:1
(1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
What were the works of this spirit? It did not claim to be sent by God, nor advocated repentance and turning to God. It endorsed necromancy and the power of witches, it offered no solution for sin, rather it was a back door willing to talk when God had chosen silence.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Rosey dear, you missed what I was saying. Just because someone knows the "why" doesn't mean they won't ask...the purpose being to hear what the other person would say.
I understood Samuel was speaking to Saul.....Samuel wanted to hear what Saul had to say for himself.
Why is that so difficult to understand? Or were you just hoping to make it look like I was too stupid to figure out who Samuel was speaking to? :think:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Lord have mercy.
You assume what your friends claimed to see really happened. :chuckle:
You assume only the witch saw Samuel (but Saul says otherwise).
You assume the witch called Samuel up (when the witch was clearly shocked he appeared).
You falsely claim Samuel gave credit to the witch for the summoning (he did no such thing).
You assume I'm stupid enough to keep beating this dead horse. If you want to discuss scripture, I'm all for it. I will not buy into your odd fancies about the spirit realm, and your false claims about what the scripture clearly states.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh dear, so you think that means that those false prophets who sit with us in the church pews are actually demons...spirits? :chuckle:
That is speaking of people who are not saved pretending to be saved, and the falseness of their message. I'm sorry, but this is getting more than a bit ridiculous. :rotfl:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Wrong....satan is an angel and he was not alone when he rebelled.
Rosenritter
New member
The ghost of Samuel said, why have thou disquieted me... the LORD didn't bring this Samuel. Had the LORD raised him, he would have asked, "Why has the LORD summoned me to thee?" The credit and the source for the summoning was given to Saul and his witch.
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Rosenritter
New member
Are you of the persuasion that says that there are no such things as devils loose in the world, thus denying that such events (as you dismissed above) do happen? I remember hearing some logic sometime that went like this:
1) There are no such things as devils in the world,
2) Because the only way to banish those devils would be with the Holy Spirit,
3) And there is no Holy Spirit in the world,
4) Therefore because there is no holy spirit to counter them there are no devils in the world.
It sounds very much like you are employing some sort of assumption or similar logic like that above. You, who are not a witness to the events, and offer no scripture that would legitimately counter such a claim, claim that it is absurd to believe that they could happen.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That's pure conjecture on your part....because it's the only thing that fits your "story".
Samuel saw Saul....who he recognized immediately, and said to Saul, "Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" Samuel understood what you do not. Only God can bring forth people like Samuel, Moses, and Elijah. Samuel knew quite well that God had brought him up, and when he saw Saul, he asked why it was he wanted to see him. It can't get any plainer than that.
To assume you know what Samuel "would have asked" is nonsense...and wishful thinking.
The fact is, Samuel was not "summoned", he was "brought up". The fact that he was brought up shocked the witch, so all your speculations are the worst case of grasping at straws I've ever seen.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I remember hearing there were flying saucers in this world, but the government is hiding the evidence.
You can't possibly be serious with that list of speculations. Those are as bad as your witch of Endor ones.
Who said there was no scripture to counter you claims?
Wrong.
Satan is the spirit of this age and only disquises itself as an angel of light in the deceived, like yourself.
LA
glorydaz
Well-known member
You made that up.
There comes a time with the unrepentant that God will not speak to them, when they become double dead.
Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
A witch can not raise up Gods prophets from the dead.
No, it does not.
More of your made up stuff.
There was no warning, as one might find to a repentant one.
Saul did not repent, What verses says he did??
It was not true repentance for Saul continued on with his [playing the fool.
and his particular sin concerning the temple bought about the death penalty regardless.
God did not bring up Samuel, only a form of Samuels flesh which satan knew well, like he knows yours.
Moses was alive from the dead through the arch angel bringing him from the grave to wherever Elijah who did not die, now still is.
That is a prayer of men who were persecuted by men like Saul.
This is what David said about men like King Saul--
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day. Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
No. Saul was more concerned about his own neck.
That's because a demon would not have the information Samuel had. Of course a demon shouldn't be believed. That was not the case here, however. It was Samuel, and he could be believed, and he spoke what ONLY God can know--that Saul, Jonathan, and his other two sons would die the next day. You can't explain that away, dear friend.
Paul had been told before that time.
Maybe you should read all what Samuel said to Saul before that time, and what it says in the law which warranted his death.
LA
Ah, the "spirit of this age"? Where is your verse?
You should know this before following the RCC version of events.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)
LA
glorydaz
Well-known member
But, when does that time actually come? As I said, the Lord God is long suffering. It is not for you or anyone else to say when that "last chance" will be.
Jeremiah 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
I'll need facts, not just conjecture and private interpretation if you want to discuss Samuel and Saul. I am not as long suffering as our Lord is.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That has nothing to do with what you claim.
God said--
Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
You disagree with His word.
LA