way 2 go
Well-known member
Gods prerogative was to rebuke Saul with
the one,
the only,
Samuel
Samuel KO's Saul
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Gods prerogative was to rebuke Saul with
the one,
the only,
Samuel
Samuel KO's Saul
Gods prerogative was to rebuke Saul with
the one,
the only,
Samuel
Samuel KO's Saul
So you believe the accuracy of the perception of King Saul, a man cut off from God?
Saul did not even see Samuel.
LA
way 2 go
Well-known member
I believe what it says , if God wanted a demon to lie to Saul God could have done that
but God brought up the spirit of Samuel to give Saul the truth of the situation .
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?
glorydaz
Well-known member
and every time in the passages you listed when it is a demon or devil the bible say it is a demon or devil.
Pesky details. :chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, not at all.
God's "prerogative" that a demon would speak truth? That a demon would predict Saul's death? No, God allowed Samuel to appear to Saul because His mercy endureth forever. Samuel loved Saul, grieving and mourning over him. God understood that. When Samuel departed from Saul that last time, "he would come no more to see Saul" until the day of Saul's death. How can that be, if it wasn't Samuel?
1 Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
The departed dead were in Sheol/Hades separated by a large gulf....both underground until Jesus was raised from the dead. Samuel would have been in Abraham's bosom...who is to say which side Saul was on.....
glorydaz
Well-known member
Where do you come up with that idea? Don't you understand what "perceive" means?
1 Sam. 28:14
And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
2 Samuel 12:19
But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
1 Kings 22:33
And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him.
And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
2 Samuel 12:19
But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
1 Kings 22:33
And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him.
Biblical;
Revelation 20:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Saul's Participation in a Demonic Seance
Saul's Participation in a Demonic Seance
Not Samuel.
If God refused to speak to Saul through legitimate means (Samuel when alive), neither would he speak to him through illegitimate means (Dead Samuel).
God refused to let Samuel speak to Saul while he was alive. I find it hard to accept that in this desperate hour, after refusing to speak to him by dreams, Urim, and other prophets, God did give him a direct word from the Lord through an cursed methodology.
I think there are at a minimum two huge textual questions for the pro-Samuel crowd to answer, namely the significance of "Samuel's" rising up from the ground, and his declaration that Saul will be with him. As soon as one starts explaining these observations in terms of "realm of the dead," and alleged "OT perspective" on the afterlife, he leaves the text behind, and begins his own version of systematic theologizing.
The relevant texts are 1 Sam.15:35;19:18,22,24; and especially 1 Sam. 28:6 "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets."
In other words, Saul sought for legitimate means to have God speak to him. He prayed, he went to worship, he sought the will of God through the intermediaries God had provided--priests and prophets. And God literally would not speak to him.
Did God permit Saul to know the truth, via the medium? Yes, though why Saul should have expected a speaker of unreliable pronouncements to give him insight only shows how far he had fallen.
God influenced Ahab through a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his false prophets. God can do what he likes.
God can speak through an donkey, but
1) people aren't typically trying to access secret knowledge through verbalizing animals,
2) there was no God given law against accessing the verbalized thoughts of animals, and
3) Balaam wasn't trying to get his donkey to talk to him.
There was Law against witchcraft. Ex.22:18; Lev.19:31; 20:27; Dt.18:10-11
Saul had harried mediums out of the land (1 Sam. 28:3,9), in accordance with the Law's prohibition. Saul knew these were agents of evil standing against God. But he somehow thinks one of these creatures will be able to compel Samuel's attendance?
If God wasn't going to speak through legitimate means to Saul, even though he sought them out (recall God even spoke truth to Ahab, when he sought out Micaiah), I don't believe that he gave Saul even a message of judgment through his ghostly prophet, summoned buy a medium.
A careful study leads me to think it was a demonic seance, and it was attended by a demon. But I don't think that anyone should have been inclined to believe the word of a demon, a medium, or any "spirit" message produced in that environment.
AMR
Saul's Participation in a Demonic Seance
Not Samuel.
If God refused to speak to Saul through legitimate means (Samuel when alive), neither would he speak to him through illegitimate means (Dead Samuel).
God refused to let Samuel speak to Saul while he was alive. I find it hard to accept that in this desperate hour, after refusing to speak to him by dreams, Urim, and other prophets, God did give him a direct word from the Lord through an cursed methodology.
I think there are at a minimum two huge textual questions for the pro-Samuel crowd to answer, namely the significance of "Samuel's" rising up from the ground, and his declaration that Saul will be with him. As soon as one starts explaining these observations in terms of "realm of the dead," and alleged "OT perspective" on the afterlife, he leaves the text behind, and begins his own version of systematic theologizing.
The relevant texts are 1 Sam.15:35;19:18,22,24; and especially 1 Sam. 28:6 "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets."
In other words, Saul sought for legitimate means to have God speak to him. He prayed, he went to worship, he sought the will of God through the intermediaries God had provided--priests and prophets. And God literally would not speak to him.
Did God permit Saul to know the truth, via the medium? Yes, though why Saul should have expected a speaker of unreliable pronouncements to give him insight only shows how far he had fallen.
God influenced Ahab through a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his false prophets. God can do what he likes.
God can speak through an donkey, but
1) people aren't typically trying to access secret knowledge through verbalizing animals,
2) there was no God given law against accessing the verbalized thoughts of animals, and
3) Balaam wasn't trying to get his donkey to talk to him.
There was Law against witchcraft. Ex.22:18; Lev.19:31; 20:27; Dt.18:10-11
Saul had harried mediums out of the land (1 Sam. 28:3,9), in accordance with the Law's prohibition. Saul knew these were agents of evil standing against God. But he somehow thinks one of these creatures will be able to compel Samuel's attendance?
If God wasn't going to speak through legitimate means to Saul, even though he sought them out (recall God even spoke truth to Ahab, when he sought out Micaiah), I don't believe that he gave Saul even a message of judgment through his ghostly prophet, summoned buy a medium.
A careful study leads me to think it was a demonic seance, and it was attended by a demon. But I don't think that anyone should have been inclined to believe the word of a demon, a medium, or any "spirit" message produced in that environment.
AMR
Rosenritter
New member
Glory, have you done much research into the effects of devils as they affect humans? It doesn't have to be witchcraft or necromancy, it could be through New Age Spiritism as well, for example. Those devils don't always act cool and calculating. I have accounts I have read, and I have accounts given to me first hand by people that I have known face to face on a daily basis.
Don't you think that throwing a hammer across the room (telekinesis) or making broken glass appear beneath you in your own bed (teleportation of objects) would be something that might scare someone (even just a little) into considering that they aren't dealing with safe spirits? Sometimes people are turned away from those devils when they start to realize how scary they have become, with demands that continue to increase in intensity.
Your logic that "if it was a devil, he would have been careful not to spook Saul" doesn't fit the evidence of how devils actually function. It's not a slight against you suggesting that you may be misjudging how devils work.
You suggest that a devil could not certainly have known that Saul and his sons would die. I can give you two ways that a devil could have known, even three.
First, that devil could have power within that battlefield, to influence events, be it within the enemy army or Saul's own troops, or even deflecting an arrow here or there for careful aim, under whatever license it was allowed by God.
Second, the devil could have inside information, as it might have been common knowledge within the spirit realm what was going to happen to Saul and his sons the next day.
Third, the spirit could have simply made up what it wanted on a general prediction, for the purpose of causing despair. Some devils like causing torment and despair, and call it a lucky guess, but it given the military situation at the time, such a prediction wouldn't have been a long shot by any means.
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Rosenritter
New member
Thus I choose those as examples because I knew they could not be contested, and would easily convey the image. What is your point?
Rosenritter
New member
Wow, you just knocked yourself out without seeing what hit you. Who was that who brought Samuel up again?
a) God
b) Saul
If God had raised up Samuel, he wouldn't be asking that question now, would he? He would say 'The LORD hath sent me because ..." and not "why hast thou disquieted me" .... that thou is Saul, not God.
You did that to yourself War 2 Go. The Spirit of Samuel said that Saul brought him up. Indirectly, through the witch, but God wasn't a part of this equation.
Rosenritter
New member
I believe you may have missed that the "for ever" of Relevation 20:10 is already limited as having a finite end. Here's another prophecy of the same event in a lot more stunning detail.
Ezekiel 28:12-19 KJV
(12) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
(13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Revelation 20:10 is read in the context of the prior given Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14, which both prophesy a definite end and total destruction of the devil in future judgment. Revelation 20:10 only seems to promote "eternal conscious torment" when one assumes that the devil is immortal and cannot (and will not) be destroyed.
Rosenritter
New member
Careful now, it's been the strong opinion of the vocal majority of this board now for at least a week that there is no biblical evidence that the spirit was anything but the actual essence of the human prophet Samuel, along with a general assessment that you must be a Seventh Day Adventist, a ravening wolf, or some sort of cult member if you believe otherwise. You, John Calvin, Martin Luther, King James I, etc... were all gravely mistaken and completely lacking biblical support.
So they say at least. Prepare for a wave of mocking emoticons.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you have nothing to counter what the bible actually says
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,
and the medium was freaked out about
actually seeing Samuel instead of the usual .
this is a one time event like the donkey
glorydaz
Well-known member
God did speak to Saul through legitimate means...Samuel. In fact, God spoke to Saul many times....just as He did to Israel, time and time again. I'm surprised you don't make that comparison yourself. Then, God saw how Samuel mourned for Saul, and He knew the love Samuel had for him. Do you not recall how God heeded Moses' pleas for the children of Israel? Have you forgotten all the times God gave another chance to those He had planned harm? Exodus 32:14
That seer had no power to call up Samuel. She was surprised when he appeared. I find it hard to accept that a false spirit would repeat exactly what Samuel had already told Saul, and that he would be able to predict Saul and his sons' deaths the next day. Surely you don't think seers have that power.
Not at all. It fits in perfectly with what our Lord described in detail in Luke 16.
And Samuel died...after which Saul repented. He stopped seeking to kill David. Are you going to tell me, AMR, that even a man like King Saul can't repent? Samuel was dead. Who else would God send to repeat His message to Saul and to warn him of his short time on this earth?
1 Sam. 26:21 Then said Saul, I have sinned: return, my son David: for I will no more do thee harm, because my soul was precious in thine eyes this day: behold, I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.
1 Sam. 26:25 Then Saul said to David, Blessed be thou, my son David: thou shalt both do great things, and also shalt still prevail. So David went on his way, and Saul returned to his place.
1 Sam. 27:4 And it was told Saul that David was fled to Gath: and he sought no more again for him.
Things changed after Samuel's death and God is more than able to bring forth a Prophet from the dead ...He did with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.
And His mercy endureth forever. There were others who God hid his face from....for a time and a purpose. Hope is not gone unto they sleep the sleep of death. Not even for Saul.
Psalm 13:1-3
How long wilt thou forget me, O Lord? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me? How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
How long wilt thou forget me, O Lord? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me? How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
He was hoping to speak to Samuel, and knew Samuel would tell him the truth.
That's because a demon would not have the information Samuel had. Of course a demon shouldn't be believed. That was not the case here, however. It was Samuel, and he could be believed, and he spoke what ONLY God can know--that Saul, Jonathan, and his other two sons would die the next day. You can't explain that away, dear friend.
Besides which, the scripture, itself, says it was Samuel, and the LORD had rejected Saul from being KING over Israel. I think it would be wrong to read more into it than is actually there.
1 Sam. 15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Nonsense. That's like saying God didn't need to ask Adam how they knew they were naked. He asked because He wanted to hear what Adam had to say for himself. :duh:
You caught nobody but yourself and your grasping at straws.
So you believe God allows satanists to call up Gods people from the dead?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Why don't you take the time to read what was posted?
Had God "wanted a demon to lie to Saul"....is not the same as God allowing a satanist to call up God's people. :doh:
You claim it was Samuel himself that the witch called up.
Maybe you are really dead and you have not realized it?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Rosey, it seems you've done too much outside "research". The Bible has a fount of information concerning how the enemy works with unbelievers and believers. How he uses the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life to distract us from our path. Wile is his way....not hammers flying across the room.
Yes, and I've read accounts of God giving people "gold teeth" and people walking on water. :chew:
No, I'm not impressed by guys sawing women in half or disappearing out of a box, either.
Yeah, like ghost stories on a dark night.
No, that wasn't anywhere near my logic....hadn't even entered my mind.
I wouldn't worry about my misjudging devils if I were you.
This is the very reason God says people are not to consult seers. They suddenly become obsessed with demons and attribute great power to them.
No, I believe man is easily deceived, and it's deception that is satan's greatest tool.
Just because I call those "accounts" you claim to have seen "lies of satan", doesn't mean I don't understand the spiritual realm. On the contrary, I understand it better than you realize.
Satan has no "inside information". He and his fallen angels are kept on a short leash. They can tempt and deceive, but they cannot "deflect arrows". It's the LORD alone who has the power of life and death.
Sorry, Rosey, but you've been watching too much tv.