Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

why on earth does this matter so much to you?

Are you asking me why does it matter if the unrepentant perish or if God tortures them alive forever in hell???


It matters a lot, first because of the kind of God we serve. Do we serve a loving God who rescues the lost from death, or we serve a sadistic God who plans to torture people alive forever.

Secondly, some of us have something called "empathy". I know you lack this. NOBODY deserves to be tortured alive forever.

Thirdly, This is imprtant to me because I believe that the Bible is true and the Bible specifically states that the wicked will perish, instead of being tortured alive forever.

Now I must ask you. Why on earth is it so important to YOU that people be tortured alive forever in hell?

 

[Aimiel]

The Book of Revelation is a science textbook on how smoke dissapates now? Interesting. Then since the smoke of Edom destruction also rises forever, we can expect to find Edom still burning? Isaiah 34:9-10 talks about the complete destruction of Edom and it says "It's smoke shall go up forever". By your reasoning, Edom is still burning. :duh: Is Edom still burning? :duh: No it isn't :duh:

Talking to you is like talking to a 9 year old. :duh:

Actually, it is, and will be, for ever and ever, since God doesn't lie. Your philosophy makes much of what He said un-true.

 

[Aimiel]

Except that is not what you are saying.
You are not claiming that God puts criminals to death. You are claiming that God sends criminals to hell where they are tortured alive forever.

No, God said that, I simply believe Him.

 

[Aimiel]

Believe whatever makes you happy. If it makes you happy to think of people being tortured alive forever in hell, then I won't try to convince you otherwise.

Liar. It's what you live for... to convince people hell does not exist.

 

[Timotheos]

Liar. It's what you live for... to convince people hell does not exist.

Liar?

What I've been saying is written - verbatim - in the Bible. Why so harsh? Do you have a personal stake in this?

I believe that the wicked will perish and will be no more. Am I lying? Am I a liar? Have you read Psalm 37:20 which says "the wicked will perish"? So your claim that I am a liar means that the The Holy Bible is also a lie. We know that Scripture is God-Breathed, so if the Bible is a lie, then you are also saying that GOD is a Liar.
I believe that the wicked will be no more. Am I lying? Psalm 37:10 says "the wicked shall be no more". If you say that I am a liar, then you are saying that God is a liar. Good Job, you just called God a liar. I wouldn't want to be you.

 

[Timotheos]

No, God said that, I simply believe Him.

God never said that He sends criminals to hell where they are tortured alive forever.

 

[Lon]

The link says that the word that is translated "destruction" in Matthew 7:13 means "destruction". But honestly, When you first read Matthew 7:13 did you immediately go to a concordance and read "destruction doesn't really mean destruction" and then think "Well this proves that sinners will burn alive in hell forever"? Be honest. Isn't it true that eternal torment is what you have always believed? It is the "default setting".

Erm, Destruction means ruin, a lot of ruins are still standing and a few being restored. It doesn't mean annihilation as in wiped out forever.
So being honest? I don't know you have room for a 'be honest' accusation, I do know what words mean and if anyone challenges what I know a word to mean, I go look it up, like I did here :idunno: I am not going to become contentious here, you believe what you like.

The definition of complete destruction makes perfect sense in the context of Matthew 7:13-14 and the definition of apollumi that you provided.

Agree but that wasn't the only thing they meant and I'm trying to help you see another's (in fact most others) perspective as well as why they believe it.

In Matthew 25:46 the definition of kolazo makes perfect sense that the wicked are "cut off", the definition of kolazo.

I assume we both can read and to whatever degree, for comprehension.

I'd say, however, that it makes sense, but is not the better or more common usage. So I must disagree regarding a 'perfect sense.' Such assumes a bit, don't you think?

It makes perfect sense that they are destroyed, "cut off" from eternal life. Particularly in the context since it is only THE OTHER GROUP that goe to eternal life. If eternal conscious torture in hell is correct, then EVERYONE goes off to eternal life. This is not what Matthew 25:46 says.

Mat 25:46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
"Eternal" is said twice. :idunno:

 

[Lon]

Liar.

God never said that He sends criminals to hell where they are tortured alive forever.

A bit harsh. While I believe you wrong, I'm not thinking you are lying about the verses. I've read them. You have some logistics behind your understanding of the text but he is well within reason, in understanding words, to believe in a torment "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Liar" therefore, is a harsh accusation. We shouldn't be getting this rambunctious in this debate, imho.

 

[Derf]

It matters a lot, first because of the kind of God we serve. Do we serve a loving God who rescues the lost from death, or we serve a sadistic God who plans to torture people alive forever.

What if God actually wants to rescue the lost from death, but not everybody wants to be with Him for all eternity?

What if Jesus Christ's sacrifice provided the means for rescuing the lost from death, and it was 100% effective?

If death is conquered, then all are resurrected--with no possibility of physical death anymore. And if physical death is an impossibility, the only thing left for the "second death" is something that doesn't end.

[Rev 2:11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. so the second death "hurts" and it applies to people
[Rev 20:6] Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[Rev 20:14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.definition of "second death", and it seems to apply to some group of people (based on 2:11) that are/were in a state of "death" or in the location of "hell" (Hades)
[Rev 21:8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.all those described herein "have their part" in the second death, which is further described with the word "brimstone", which seems to indicate that it isn't the concepts of death and hell that were cast into the lake of fire, but the inhabitants

So, if death is the penalty for sin, and if the second death "hurts", and people are resurrected from the first death to something more painful, presumably, doesn't that make God sadistic by your definition, even if it doesn't last for eternity?

On the other hand, if God is merciful and offers a way out of something that appears to be what things are like without God's organizing influence (all things consist in Him-Col 1:17 KJV), going so far as to describe the horrific nature of what can be avoided, but some don't take it, is that sadistic?

 

[Lon]

Are you asking me why does it matter if the unrepentant perish or if God tortures them alive forever in hell???


It matters a lot, first because of the kind of God we serve. Do we serve a loving God who rescues the lost from death, or we serve a sadistic God who plans to torture people alive forever.

Secondly, some of us have something called "empathy". I know you lack this. NOBODY deserves to be tortured alive forever.

Luk 9:59 To another he said, "Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
Luk 9:60 And Jesus said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
Luk 9:61 Yet another said, "I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home."
Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

Did Jesus "lack empathy?" Running around and telling the lost "Don't worry, you will only be destroyed as if you didn't exist, not tortured forever" 1) If not true is a what? 2) Against Jesus command here to let the dead bury the dead and follow Him, as far as I understand the text and busying oneself with that very task. Threads like this are attempts to 'bury' the dead and look after them, I think. We must rather preach Christ and life. That is 'why' Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, He didn't want us wasting time. We need to make the 'most' of our time because the days are evil. Taking a few moments to discuss this isn't ill-used, but we have got to prioritize as well as know when we aren't letting the dead bury the dead. Genesis 18:25 We can trust God.

Thirdly, This is imprtant to me because I believe that the Bible is true and the Bible specifically states that the wicked will perish, instead of being tortured alive forever.

Now I must ask you. Why on earth is it so important to YOU that people be tortured alive forever in hell?

See Luke 13:28 More brilliant men than you and I have discussed this at length, but compare this to Luke 16:23-24

To me, it looks conclusive that the anguish is ongoing and they are cognizant.

"How can that be???" I don't know. I can speculate at best. Does a soul really burn? Are the flames to be thought of as literal? Do we really have tongues outside our bodies? All questions I can't answer. I can report on what it 'looks like.' What does it look like to you?

 

[Timotheos]

A bit harsh. While I believe you wrong, I'm not thinking you are lying about the verses. I've read them. You have some logistics behind your understanding of the text but he is well within reason, in understanding words, to believe in a torment "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Liar" therefore, is a harsh accusation. We shouldn't be getting this rambunctious in this debate, imho.

He called me a liar first. Why do you say I am harsh for pointing out that he is not telling the truth when he called me a liar for saying exactly what the Bible says? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Timotheos]

Liar. It's what you live for... to convince people hell does not exist.

Lon, why do you not object to this?
You tormentists all stick together and will say anything to attempt to discredit those of us who believe the Bible.

 

[freelight]

Reason, intelligence, conscience......for starters

Reason, intelligence, conscience......for starters

So you need to know universal truth to test those sources. Where does that universal truth come from? How does it get to you?

You use the reason, logic, intelligence, moral sense and discernment of conscience given to you by God to test any spirit or doctrine.

Condemning souls to suffer forever in a state of hellfire (as traditionally believed and imagined) as a just punishment for so called sin is insanity, and is wrong on other levels as well. The just compensation of all acts is taken care of by the law of karma (action/consequence, measure for measure, proportionally)....by universal law. Such is called the law of compensation, law of retribution, etc....but it is wholly fair and proportional to the acts committed so that one only reaps what is sown, no more no less.

Speculation is upon the duration of punishment, if sin can produce a final death if fully embraced, and if the law of progress upheld by divine love draws all soul's ultimately to God, sin and suffering being catalysts inspiring repentance and reformation. Options other than ECT are 'conditional immortality' and 'universalism' from a biblical perspective.

I've covered a lot here already and elsewhere. This is limited to the Bible though, as I also go into views from other religious traditions and schools within Spiritualism & Spiritism. Info. from psychical research societies and modern research of NDEs and the Afterlife are also helpful.

 

[Aimiel]

Liar?

Yup. You are. Admit it.

What I've been saying is written - verbatim - in the Bible. Why so harsh? Do you have a personal stake in this?

Yes, I do, since I abide in The Word of God and The Word abides in me and you constantly push your darkened understanding onto others as if it is enlightenment. It's truly sickening to God and all those who abide in Him.

I believe that the wicked will perish and will be no more. Am I lying? Am I a liar?

Yes, since you base your dark philosophy on cherry-picked tidbits of Scripture.

I wouldn't want to be you.

I wouldn't want you to be me, either. *SHIVERS*

 

[Timotheos]

Mat 25:46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
"Eternal" is said twice. :idunno:

So what? If something is eternal does that make it torture? Obviously not. I believe that the unrepentant remain destroyed for all eternity. That is an eternal punishment. Eternal is said twice, that doesn't prove that they are tortured alive for all eternity. Especially since the Bible specifically states that they will be no more. You are arguing against what the Bible says.

 

[Timotheos]

Yup. You are. Admit it.

No, I believe exactly what the Bible says.

Yes, I do, since I abide in The Word of God and The Word abides in me and you constantly push your darkened understanding onto others as if it is enlightenment. It's truly sickening to God and all those who abide in Him.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Yes, since you base your dark philosophy on cherry-picked tidbits of Scripture.

There is a lot of good fruit in the Scriptures. I've given you some of it. I agree with all of it. There are hundreds of verses of Scripture that specifically state that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, they will be burnt up, and they will be no more. At least I have Scripture to pick, you have no Scripture that says that people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever. All you can do is cherry pick 3 or 4 verses and force your doctrine INTO them and then make the bold claim that all of scripture agrees with you.

I wouldn't want you to be me, either. *SHIVERS*

That's fine, but on Judgment Day, I will be the one who agrees with Jesus Christ. "Fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna" Matthew 10:28

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you try to tell Jesus Christ that He is wrong.

 

[Derf]

You use the reason, logic, intelligence, moral sense and discernment of conscience given to you by God to test any spirit or doctrine.

Yes, we do use those things, but we also use a standard by which to measure. If that standard is coming from me, it should certainly be questioned by you. In like manner, any standard that comes from you is open to question by me. And I don't see that either of us could prevail against the other's opinion without a higher authority.

Condemning souls to suffer forever in a state of hellfire (as traditionally believed and imagined) as a just punishment for so called sin is insanity, and is wrong on other levels as well. The just compensation of all acts is taken care of by the law of karma (action/consequence, measure for measure, proportionally)....by universal law. Such is called the law of compensation, law of retribution, etc....but it is wholly fair and proportional to the acts committed so that one only reaps what is sown, no more no less.

That sounds nice, and some of it makes sense in regard to a standard by which to judge, but a law doesn't take care of anything. It's the executor of the law who makes sure the law is enforced. Karma, if I understand the concept, doesn't recognize a personal executor, per se, but assumes a just result without one. What is common between the "law of Karma" and the justice of God is a recognition that justice will be reached eventually. What is different is that God is present to achieve that just outcome, while Karma is not an entity that can achieve anything--"Karma happens".

I would suggest to you that either the power of Karma is wielded by someone, or it's a false doctrine. And if that power is wielded by someone, then the debate continues as to whether that someone needs ECT, to reach an appropriate level of justice, or not.

Speculation is upon the duration of punishment, if sin can produce a final death if fully embraced, and if the law of progress upheld by divine love draws all soul's ultimately to God, sin and suffering being catalysts inspiring repentance and reformation.

Here you've introduce another law, one that is potentially in opposition to the law of Karma, and a suggestion that an act (sin) inspires it's own rejection (repentance), which is either contradictory or unnecessary. Suffering can certainly inspire repentance and reformation. Can eternal suffering inspire repentance and reformation for an eternal sin? Jesus didn't seem to think so: Mark 3:28-29.

Options other than ECT are 'conditional immortality' and 'universalism' from a biblical perspective.

If by "conditional immortality" you mean that only those that are in a good place stay (or become) immortal, then that's indeed the conversation we are in the midst of. Universalism is certainly another option, though not necessarily from a biblical perspective. It seems to be what you mentioned above as "the law of progress upheld by divine love draws all soul's ultimately to God".

I think these are the 3 possibilities you've addressed, with some repetition:

1. Everybody is saved eventually (universalism)
2. Some are saved, and some are destroyed (conditional immortality)
3. Some are saved and some are damned (ECT)

 

[Lon]

He called me a liar first. Why do you say I am harsh for pointing out that he is not telling the truth when he called me a liar for saying exactly what the Bible says? That doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, I don't think either of you are being insincere, so at least for me, that leaves 'liar' as an accusation that falls to the floor and isn't true or needed. I haven't seen either of them as having needed to be said, were a little harsh, I'm no judge. Think more commentary on that point, you guys are free agents and can do "liar" 'til the cows come home. I'm not trying to intervene too much (perhaps a little peacemaker behind it). It seems for you two, it is an essential doctrine/disagreement and this is the quintessential Christian debate forum, so perhaps I'm out of line, and apologies if so. For me, it isn't a 'brother against brother' topic to the death. Maybe I'm naïve` -Lon

 

[Angel4Truth]

Erm, Destruction means ruin, a lot of ruins are still standing and a few being restored. It doesn't mean annihilation as in wiped out forever.
So being honest? I don't know you have room for a 'be honest' accusation, I do know what words mean and if anyone challenges what I know a word to mean, I go look it up, like I did here :idunno: I am not going to become contentious here, you believe what you like.
Agree but that wasn't the only thing they meant and I'm trying to help you see another's (in fact most others) perspective as well as why they believe it.



I assume we both can read and to whatever degree, for comprehension.

I'd say, however, that it makes sense, but is not the better or more common usage. So I must disagree regarding a 'perfect sense.' Such assumes a bit, don't you think?


Mat 25:46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
"Eternal" is said twice. :idunno:

:thumb:

 

[Totton Linnet]

So what? If something is eternal does that make it torture? Obviously not. I believe that the unrepentant remain destroyed for all eternity. That is an eternal punishment. Eternal is said twice, that doesn't prove that they are tortured alive for all eternity. Especially since the Bible specifically states that they will be no more. You are arguing against what the Bible says.

You say "torture" that's what makes you a snake. The bible says punishment.