Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

Justice includes reformation.....

Justice includes reformation.....

Ah, but God is also Just is He not. And will he not have to exercise that justice.

Of course.

Condemning soul's to an eternity of punishment with no hope of relief, reformation or salvation is cruel, not just.

Love's will is to save, revive, restore, empower, renew, enhance, transform life, not to harm, hinder or sabotage it.

 

[rstrats]

Bright Raven,
re: "Revelation 20:10-15New King James Version (NKJV) 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Nothing is said about anyone other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet being tormented day and night forever and ever. And the KJV only says that the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



re: "15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Nothing said here about tormenting them day and night forever and ever.

 

[Bright Raven]

Bright Raven,
re: "Revelation 20:10-15New King James Version (NKJV) 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Nothing is said about anyone other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet being tormented day and night forever and ever. And the KJV only says that the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



re: "15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Nothing said here about tormenting them day and night forever and ever.

:duh: What do you think being continually in a lake of fire would be like. Satan is tormented day and night. What about those that follow him. They will receive the same! :think:

2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[freelight]

It's utterly insane........

It's utterly insane........

:duh: What do you think being continually in a lake of fire would be like. Satan is tormented day and night. What about those that follow him. They will receive the same! :think:

2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We've shown the illogical & insanity of ECT already. What pray tell is being accomplished by a God of love and wisdom who is imposing a fate of endless punishment upon his own creation? Would you impose such a sentence upon your own children if they rejected you? Does condemning souls to eternal suffering with no hope of salvation inspire them to love God more?

 

[Bright Raven]

We've shown the illogical & insanity of ECT already. What pray tell is being accomplished by a God of love and wisdom who is imposing a fate of endless punishment upon his own creation? Would you impose such a sentence upon your own children if they rejected you? Does condemning souls to eternal suffering with no hope of salvation inspire them to love God more?

I'm not God, He is.

 

[Derf]

Of course not in every detail and particular, but some commonalities.

How do you decide which parts to trust and which parts to reject?

Do all religious sects and denominations who use the Bible as their ''standard' agree on the subject of hell, soteriology and eschatology?

No, but most agree that the source is correct, even if we don't always agree on exactly what it says.

 

[freelight]

Not acceptable.....

Not acceptable.....

I'm not God, He is.

God gave us reason, logic, intelligence, discernment, conscience,...to determine right from wrong, to evaluate, judge and discriminate. This includes universal truths, values and principles.

My questions to you still stand.

Saying "I'm not God, he is" is a cop-out, unacceptable when he gave us the moral sense, intelligence and reason to accept or reject a proposition or doctrine on principle.

 

[Aimiel]

Of course not in every detail and particular, but some commonalities.

Do all religious sects and denominations who use the Bible as their ''standard' agree on the subject of hell, soteriology and eschatology?

Every book of Scriptures is in perfect harmony.

 

[Aimiel]

You loose.

Revelation 20:10-15New King James Version (NKJV)

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Amen.

 

[freelight]

Research always.....

Research always.....

How do you decide which parts to trust and which parts to reject?

You continually consider, test and research the concept or principle to see if it holds, if it aligns with universal truth and reason.

No, but most agree that the source is correct, even if we don't always agree on exactly what it says.

Such is an assumption of inspiration however given to a collection of books further assumed by some to be infallible, which is a claim that is wanting. What you have is a common text from which different interpretations arise, from which proponents of 'conditional immortality', 'universalism', and traditional-orthodox viewpoints use various passages as proof-texts. Cherries for the picking.

Christianity is more complicated since its a compound-creation of various religious cultures further morphing its own denominations. The nature and potential of the soul alone is a doctrine differing from an orthodox Jewish perspective, but Greek, pagan and eastern philosophical beliefs have crept in giving the impression of an 'immortal soul', ....but we can venture that subject another time.

 

[Lon]

It's symbolic, metaphorical. Quibbling over terms does nothing to justify or explain how a God who is Love could inflict and maintain eternal punishment upon his creatures TO NO END. It's a contradiction and absurdity.

ECT (exposed)

Who cares what you "wish upon a star" or 'demand of God?' Who are you or what makes your opinion matter a whit? God will be who He is. Men will try to fruitlessly make God conform to their image rather than being conformed to His. It makes you a weirdo with no need to even need a God or follow Him. Your God is yourself.

 

[Ben Masada]

Bright Raven,
re: "Revelation 20:10-15New King James Version (NKJV) 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Nothing is said about anyone other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet being tormented day and night forever and ever. And the KJV only says that the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

re: "15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Nothing said here about tormenting them day and night forever and ever.

I agree with you that nothing or no one is or will be tormented day and night because it is not biblical. And, mind you, it includes the Devil which does not exist as it is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.

 

[Timotheos]

It is, quite logically. How could smoke, coming from torment, ascending for ever and ever NOT prove that the torment never ends? If it ended, the smoke would dissipate, as smoke does, very quickly. :duh:

The Book of Revelation is a science textbook on how smoke dissapates now? Interesting. Then since the smoke of Edom destruction also rises forever, we can expect to find Edom still burning? Isaiah 34:9-10 talks about the complete destruction of Edom and it says "It's smoke shall go up forever". By your reasoning, Edom is still burning. :duh: Is Edom still burning? :duh: No it isn't :duh:

Talking to you is like talking to a 9 year old. :duh:

 

[Timotheos]

This is why I gave links to the concordance. Spend a few moments on the links:


Here they are again

Matthew 7:13 Destruction
and
Matthew 25:46 Chastisement (the highlighted verse is a separate link to just the verse whereas the second, the word is the concordance link)

The link says that the word that is translated "destruction" in Matthew 7:13 means "destruction". But honestly, When you first read Matthew 7:13 did you immediately go to a concordance and read "destruction doesn't really mean destruction" and then think "Well this proves that sinners will burn alive in hell forever"? Be honest. Isn't it true that eternal torment is what you have always believed? It is the "default setting".

The definition of complete destruction makes perfect sense in the context of Matthew 7:13-14 and the definition of apollumi that you provided. In Matthew 25:46 the definition of kolazo makes perfect sense that the wicked are "cut off", the definition of kolazo. It makes perfect sense that they are destroyed, "cut off" from eternal life. Particularly in the context since it is only THE OTHER GROUP that goe to eternal life. If eternal conscious torture in hell is correct, then EVERYONE goes off to eternal life. This is not what Matthew 25:46 says.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, just as the Executioner is God's Minister, when he puts criminals to death.

Except that is not what you are saying.
You are not claiming that God puts criminals to death. You are claiming that God sends criminals to hell where they are tortured alive forever.

 

[ok doser]

You are claiming that God sends criminals to hell where they are tortured alive forever.

why on earth does this matter so much to you?

 

[rstrats]

Bright Raven,
re: "What do you think being continually in a lake of fire would be like."

Well if a person is tossed into it as flesh and blood, and depending on the temperature of the lake, it would be like burning papers in a fireplace where they would be turned into ashes sometime between moments and a couple of hours.

 

[Derf]

You continually consider, test and research the concept or principle to see if it holds, if it aligns with universal truth and reason.

So you need to know universal truth to test those sources. Where does that universal truth come from? How does it get to you?

 

[Crucible]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

The only doctrinal belief of Hell is that it is a place of punishment. It has never been stated in authority anything else other than that. 'Classical Hell'- the fire and brimstone idea, is simply a traditional speculation.

However, there's nothing that indicates that one simply dies and that's it- that is unorthodox. It goes against rationality, and makes Judgement pointless.

 

[Timotheos]

The only doctrinal belief of Hell is that it is a place of punishment. It has never been stated in authority anything else other than that. 'Classical Hell'- the fire and brimstone idea, is simply a traditional speculation.

However, there's nothing that indicates that one simply dies and that's it- that is unorthodox. It goes against rationality, and makes Judgement pointless.

"Whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". John 3:16
"The soul who sins shall die"
Ezekiel 18:4
I could give many other examples. How can you claim that there is nothing that indicates that the unrepentant will perish. AND how can you possibly think that receiving eternal LIFE instead of DESTRUCTION makes the Judgment pointless???? Is Eternal Life worthless to you? Are you a Christian? The FACT that Perishing is the opposite of eternal life and we are promised in John 3:16 that we would not perish and we would have eternal life does NOT "go against rationality". You claiming that those who do not receieve eternal life will receive eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever goes against rationality AND scripture.

Believe whatever makes you happy. If it makes you happy to think of people being tortured alive forever in hell, then I won't try to convince you otherwise.