Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

it is the only book
that
gives us the 'second death'

Not really.



Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
Eze 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
Eze 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
Eze 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[KingdomRose]

Am I going to get purged from this thread, I wonder? I don't understand yet why I can't reply to some of the OPs.

Anyway, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is not biblical. "Eternal torment" is, but not CONSCIOUS torment.

The main scripture used to support this ECT is Luke 16:19-31. We have learned by using sound reasoning that this parable is METAPHORICAL and could not be literal. Jesus was not teaching a literal fiery "hell." He was making a point to show the Pharisees that they were slacking in their spiritual responsibilities.

The next scripture that is thrown around to prove ECT is Revelation 20:10 & 14. This is also metaphorical and can readily be shown to be such. Is the wild beast that is to be thrown into the lake of fire a literal wild beast? No....the wild beast is the world-wide system of governments set up by men. So how is this "wild beast" supposed to be tormented? Since it is not literal, neither is the casting of "Death" and "Hades" into the lake of fire literal. Death and Hades cannot be thrown, can they? All of this means that the wild beast, Death and Hades are brought to an end. They are completely done away with, never more to rear their ugly heads, so to speak.

Man-made governments, Death and the Grave (Hades) will be things of the past.

How do we deal with the "torment" part of it? Well, the Greek word used there is from basanizo, which refers to a state of RESTRAINT. Jailers are referred to as basanistes. The same root word applies, and what do Jailers do? They cause their inmates to not be able to do anything. The prisoners are restrained. So this is how we think of "torment." It is a RESTRAINING. Satan, the wild beast, death and Hades are all restrained in that they can't do anything anymore, or, are not needed anymore.

There are numerous places that refer to the perishing of the wicked.

Those who do not know God "will pay the penalty of eternal destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:9, NASB) What does it mean to be destroyed? I would say...nothing left.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16, NASB) It's interesting that my dictionary defines both "destroy" and "perish" as "to put out of existence, or, to be put out of existence." It's quite clear to me that the wicked will be put out of existence....not made to consciously suffer torture forever.

I thought I explained eternal torment quite well. But no one has commented on it. When an answer is right in front of a person's face and he doesn't see it, that's unfortunate. Hey, everybody! :banana:

 

[freelight]

So much already covered....be sure to review past discussion

So much already covered....be sure to review past discussion

I thought I explained eternal torment quite well. But no one has commented on it. When an answer is right in front of a person's face and he doesn't see it, that's unfortunate. Hey, everybody! :banana:

Hi KR,

Your commentary was acknowledged,......thank you. We've confirmed such in our previous posts, and expanded further.....have you read those?

 

[Timotheos]

I thought I explained eternal torment quite well. But no one has commented on it. When an answer is right in front of a person's face and he doesn't see it, that's unfortunate. Hey, everybody! :banana:

I thought your post was quite good.

I was giving you some reputation points, but the forum said "You must spread some reputation around before giving reputation to KingdomRose again".

Do you read Koine Greek?

 

[chrysostom]

please answer the question

anna

please check this out

 

[Derf]

Hi Freelight,
Pardon me for jumping in here...

Note that this is a 'parable'. - a 'story' given to illustrate a point of the teacher.

Why do you say that? How do you know it's a parable?

Also note there is no indication in the parable that the sufferer's torment is eternal.

There's no indication that it ends, either, except that for some reason the rich man thought Lazarus would be able to do something he couldn't do himself, which was to get out of the place.

We would also consider that the law of compensation or 'law of justice' (call it karma as well) metes out only a penalty commensurate to the severity of the sin committed (measure for measure), so that once one has paid up to the last farthing, (reaped what he was sown)...there is no more suffering the penalty for that sin, once its penalty has been paid. One cannot endure an 'eternal' punishment for a 'temporal' sin. There is no reason to believe in ECT, which is reading more into the text than necessary. One reaps as he sows, 'measure for measure'. This is consistent with natural law.

Of course, no one escapes the law of karma ('actions' and their consequences).

pj

So what karma awaits the one that rejects the sacrifice of the eternal and sinless son of God?

 

[KingdomRose]

I thought your post was quite good.

I was giving you some reputation points, but the forum said "You must spread some reputation around before giving reputation to KingdomRose again".

Do you read Koine Greek?

No but I understand explanations of how the rules of grammar are different for Greek and English. I examine many translations and an Interlinear Bible is very helpful. I have seen the word-for-word translation of John 1:1 in The Emphatic Diaglott, and why most translators cling to "the word was God" I can't understand. All of the Gospel of John shows Jesus to be the SON of God and subordinate to God, except 3 or 4 verses that are so badly rendered that one is left to scratch one's head.

 

[Timotheos]

No but I understand explanations of how the rules of grammar are different for Greek and English. I examine many translations and an Interlinear Bible is very helpful. I have seen the word-for-word translation of John 1:1 in The Emphatic Diaglott, and why most translators cling to "the word was God" I can't understand. All of the Gospel of John shows Jesus to be the SON of God and subordinate to God, except 3 or 4 verses that are so badly rendered that one is left to scratch one's head.

I've been reading the NT in Greek for 7 years, and I read a chapter every day in Greek. Maybe we can discuss John 1:1.

Here it is:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Here's a tranliteration:
En arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton Theon, and Theos en ho logos

Here's a literal word for word translation:
In beginning was the word, and the word was with (or "in front of") the God and God was the word. I can see how someone would say that God was the word, but the word order in Greek is not like the word order in English, so this can easily be read "the word was God". I'm not seeing the slightlest problem with that translation. I know the NWT renders this "the word was a God", but if you actually look at the Greek Test, the word "a" is not in it. So the proper translation of John 1:1 is: "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God."

 

[way 2 go]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

eternal punishment

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Totton Linnet]

The bible does not say eternal conscious torment....to say it does shows a lying deceitful spirit.

It says eternal punishment

 

[Mickiel]

The bible does not say eternal conscious torment....to say it does shows a lying deceitful spirit.

It says eternal punishment

It does not say punishing! Ing, ing, it does not say punishing. Punishing is continual.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It does not say punishing! Ing, ing, it does not say punishing. Punishing is continual.

It says eternal punishment

 

[way 2 go]

It does not say punishing! Ing, ing, it does not say punishing. Punishing is continual.

the people being punished have
shame and everlasting contempt

Dan 12:2 ... and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment ...

 

[Mickiel]

It says eternal punishment

I think humans will be punished, I think we all will be salted with fire, but I believe the punishment of God is corrective, its healing, its nourishing, its merciful and forgiving. I think the Lake of Fire, is NOT the Christian hell, but it is a real Lake of Fire, and has at least two purposes that I know of; temporary punishment, and eternal healing.

I think the punishment will be short and sweet! In my view, the Lake is a good thing, not an evil thing.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I think humans will be punished, I think we all will be salted with fire, but I believe the punishment of God is corrective, its healing, its nourishing, its merciful and forgiving. I think the Lake of Fire, is NOT the Christian hell, but it is a real Lake of Fire, and has at least two purposes that I know of; temporary punishment, and eternal healing.

I think the punishment will be short and sweet! In my view, the Lake is a good thing, not an evil thing.

I think I think I believe I think...in my view

 

[Mickiel]

I think I think I believe I think...in my view

Oh yes, I give my view and say its my view. We can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of. I don't depend on anyone's view, but my own.

 

[Timotheos]

eternal punishment

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The eternal punishment is eternal destruction. The question was "Which verses support the doctrine of eternal torment and which verse support the doctrine that the wicked will perish?"
You haven't shown any verses that say that the eternal punishment is to be eternal torment. Daniel 12:2 even says that only SOME will have everlasting life. If the doctrine of eternal torture is correct then Daniel 12:2 is wrong, because ALL would have everlasting life, some in bliss and the rest in hellish torture. Since Daniel 12:2 is not wrong, then the doctrine of hellish torture must be wrong.

 

[Mickiel]

The eternal punishment is eternal destruction. The question was "Which verses support the doctrine of eternal torment and which verse support the doctrine that the wicked will perish?"
You haven't shown any verses that say that the eternal punishment is to be eternal torment. Daniel 12:2 even says that only SOME will have everlasting life. If the doctrine of eternal torture is correct then Daniel 12:2 is wrong, because ALL would have everlasting life, some in bliss and the rest in hellish torture. Since Daniel 12:2 is not wrong, then the doctrine of hellish torture must be wrong.

With eternal shame and contempt the person can still be alive and live with that, as they can live eternally after a punishment that could last forever, like loosing a crown. The human body is the only thing that will perish. Salvation is a free gift, and no religious opinion can take it away.

 

[Timotheos]

With eternal shame and contempt the person can still be alive and live with that, as they can live eternally after a punishment that could last forever, like loosing a crown. The human body is the only thing that will perish. Salvation is a free gift, and no religious opinion can take it away.

Maybe. The person could be alive and experiencing shame and contempt, BUT they would have to have eternal life in order to be eternally alive and experiencing shame and contempt. The verse says only SOME are raised to eternal life.

The other way to look at this is that some are raised to eternal life, and the others are not. The ones that are not raised to eternal life will perish. (The Bible talks about the second death, for those who do not receive eternal life)
So the shame and contempt is the shame and contempt of living people for those who reject God. Hitler is rotting in the grave right now. As a German I have shame for what he did, and contempt for him. Hitler is dead, he is not experiencing shame and contempt, but there is shame and contempt for him. I hope that helps explain my belief. I know that you believe that everyone will eventually be saved. I do not wish to argue against your position, because even if you are wrong, your doctrine doesn't try to paint God as an evil monster who tortures people forever. In fact, I hope that you are correct and all will be saved, but I've seen too many verses that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more for me to believe that the wicked will not be destroyed and will have eternal life either in heaven or in hell. I do not believe that the wicked will inherit eternal life. I believe that there is only eternal life in Christ.

At any rate, Daniel 12:2 does not prove eternal torture in hell, as the other poster claimed. It would be nice if the debate were only between those who believe that all will be saved and those who believe that some will be saved and the others will perish. I see much more evidence in the Bible for those 2 views than I do for the view that God is a monster who tortures people in hell forever.

 

[Mickiel]

Maybe. The person could be alive and experiencing shame and contempt, BUT they would have to have eternal life in order to be eternally alive and experiencing shame and contempt. The verse says only SOME are raised to eternal life.

The other way to look at this is that some are raised to eternal life, and the others are not. The ones that are not raised to eternal life will perish. (The Bible talks about the second death, for those who do not receive eternal life)
So the shame and contempt is the shame and contempt of living people for those who reject God. Hitler is rotting in the grave right now. As a German I have shame for what he did, and contempt for him. Hitler is dead, he is not experiencing shame and contempt, but there is shame and contempt for him. I hope that helps explain my belief. I know that you believe that everyone will eventually be saved. I do not wish to argue against your position, because even if you are wrong, your doctrine doesn't try to paint God as an evil monster who tortures people forever. In fact, I hope that you are correct and all will be saved, but I've seen too many verses that specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more for me to believe that the wicked will not be destroyed and will have eternal life either in heaven or in hell. I do not believe that the wicked will inherit eternal life. I believe that there is only eternal life in Christ.

At any rate, Daniel 12:2 does not prove eternal torture in hell, as the other poster claimed. It would be nice if the debate were only between those who believe that all will be saved and those who believe that some will be saved and the others will perish. I see much more evidence in the Bible for those 2 views than I do for the view that God is a monster who tortures people in hell forever.

Well I respect your wish of not wanting to argue the position I hold, so I will refrain from posting on your thread.

Peace.