Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Zeke]

- those cognizant of the esoteric/allegorical/gnostic insights into holy writings, mythology and sacred writ, can correlate these metaphors and symbols, yet some involved in the objective/exoteric forms of religion, hold to the more literal interpretation, not seeing into the deeper soul-meanings and spirit-insights of the language-forms. All mental/material forms correlate to the experience of mind and spirit on a soul-level, of course,...but we have different ways of navigating such language, as we see in the various religious methods, culture-contexts and approaches here.

"the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life".

In the lake of fire metaphor,...all is eventually consumed to nothingness, back to the pure aether or anatomy of Spirit, pure consciousness


pj

I would think that literal in the common grasp of that word, would dance to the music being heard within that scope of what is referred to as the flesh or carnal mind. Letters are just another form of symbols relating to the cultured mind, and the download of sounds in relation to them , letters without symbols or drama have a boundary that isn't universally in-coded among the populace on the globe, one could yell Hell in the amazon or some other culture yet cultured by it and get no emotional response except facial
expression that would also be variable in interpretation.

Yet the Esoteric can link all minds through drama or Oracle that the untrained mind in dead/letters can have common enlightenment, the mistake of modern domesticated mind is that the native/natural/wild/ mind was worshiping sticks and stones without realizing they had a deeper meaning behind the fire/sun dance that translated to a mature mind those hidden references that the literal was only a shadow/type not yet discerned by the adolescent levels.

The christian level of the literal is by far one of the lowest and like all trances of adolescents it reaps the whirlwind instead of the eye of that storm, Hell is full of them yet they know not the prodigal state they flounder in.

 

[Aimiel]

What a complication! Isn't it much easier to admit that only God is eternal? Eternity by definition is a condition of no beginning and not end. Only to have a beginning, one can no longer be eternal. Hence, only the One Who never had a beginning and will never have an end is Eternal. That's HaShem, praise the Lord!

Jesus said otherwise: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

 

[Ben Masada]

Let us dissect the above for a deeper observation, as we do accept that only 'God' is without beginning and end, truly the One Alone Infinite,....yet when the good news of Jesus is received, with it comes the promise of eternal life or immortality, so that even though mortals appear to have a beginning in time, they may receive the gift of immortality and therefore live indefinitely (survive in the endless ages to come). Therefore in the context, the soul has 'immortality-potential' as we've shared earlier,...there is no complication in this, since a soul becomes a 'partaker of the divine nature', and by becoming a partaker, merging with the eternal Spirit, that soul and 'God' become ONE. It is then the life, consciousness and substance of 'God' alone, that is the one indivisible reality, being Pure Spirit. This Spirit-life has quickened/made alive the soul into its own likeness.

Jesus was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism. He would not contradict the Torah which says in Genesis 3:22,23 that Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means, they could not share with God the attribute of eternal life. You are simply in conflict with reality.

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus said otherwise: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Jesus never said that! He would have contradicted Torah that says otherwise. (Gen. 3:22,23) Only 20% of the NT is worth believing as coming from Jesus or about him. The greater part or 80% of it is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus never said that! He would have contradicted Torah that says otherwise. (Gen. 3:22,23) Only 20% of the NT is worth believing as coming from Jesus or about him. The greater part or 80% of it is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

Obviously you haven't read Dr. Simon Greenleaf's book: "Testimony of the Evangelists." If you had, you'd realize that the gospels are some of THE MOST reliable books in antiquity, if not THE MOST RELIABLE, simply by the weight of the evidence presented in Them and the methods and character of the ones doing the writing. His book is available from several sources online for free.

May I suggest you at the very least read a synopsis of the book, found HERE.

Dr. Greenleaf was one of the founding fathers of Harvard Law School and was professor there (indeed the world's foremost authority on evidence in jurisprudence). He was a staunch atheist until he was challenged by one of his colleagues to prove The Bible to be in error or fake. He took up the challenge and studied the four Gospels. He not only found them to prove that they are accurate, he found that we have more evidence of Jesus' life than ANYONE in antiquity. He discovered that Jesus is Who He said He is and made Him his Lord and God.

 

[Aimiel]

You are simply in conflict with reality.

Actually, The True Manna from Heaven, Jesus, came to earth to give you His Flesh as food and His Blood as drink. Without eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood you have no life in you.

 

[Levolor]

Actually, The True Manna from Heaven, Jesus, came to earth to give you His Flesh as food and His Blood as drink. Without eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood you have no life in you.

That's a fact.

 

[Word based mystic]

freelight.

I take these kind of subjects and every 4 or 5 years re assess. everything I have studied and looked at so far Shows that a born again person consists of
1. body
2. soul
3. spirit
the person not born again has a live body and soul and a stillborn spirit awaiting for rebirth

 

[Levolor]

freelight.

I take these kind of subjects and every 4 or 5 years re assess. everything I have studied and looked at so far Shows that a born again person consists of
1. body
2. soul
3. spirit
the person not born again has a live body and soul and a stillborn spirit awaiting for rebirth

Fabulous!

 

[Word based mystic]

The spirit body born again becomes the vessel that is able to carry the soul into eternity.
Because the Spirit of God dwells in the spirit man The Spirit empowers that eternal venture with God.

the soul cannot contain God and cannot interact with God without the redemptive/born again spirit.
and after the new heaven and new earth comes into play only those with eternal life continue.

 

[Levolor]

The spirit body born again becomes the vessel that is able to carry the soul into eternity.
Because the Spirit of God dwells in the spirit man The Spirit empowers that eternal venture with God.

the soul cannot contain God and cannot interact with God without the redemptive/born again spirit.
and after the new heaven and new earth comes into play only those with eternal life continue.

Yes.

Biblically we are told that: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

There is no mention of the soul in that verse. So, then we look at: The soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ezekiel 18:20a

Too many seem to take that that death is the physical one, yet the death that is needed is the same death that Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane... the death of 'my will', the death of the ego that then says: "Thy will, Lord, be done, not mine". Truly being crucified into Christ.

So, the question is: Will the soul join the Spirit when it returns to God, at physical death?

Chances are really good, if one has truly been crucified into Christ. If the one that now lives, and lives by the faith of Christ will join the Spirit and return to God at physical death.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

I could probably go on...

 

[Timotheos]

The Bible says they will be tormented day and night forever. Conscious torment is indeed Biblical. It's the SDA's and now the New Age leaning Christians that are challenging the blatant scriptural statements regarding the torments of hell.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. How can the wages of sin be eternal conscious torment in hell if the wages of sin is death? It is not just SDAs who question eternal torture, it is all Bible Believing Christians who do.

 

[Word based mystic]

daniel
forever is not the same as eternal.
Different words were used in this on purpose/for a reason
forever reflects in this verse. Aeon, of an age, period of time, within the earthly sense of time reflective of material time frame.

It is not an eternal state. Heaven and earth shall pass away including and especially death, hell and the grave.
the new heaven and earth shall not contain sorrow, misery.

Psalm 37:20New King James Version (NKJV)

20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.

only born again put on eternal life
wicked shall not obtain any type of life eternally.
they shall be consumed with destruction fire that brings Eternal/permanent death no chance of having life ever again. eternal is a permanent state and death eternally gives no option of life or awareness again. This comes after the eternal damnation. Damnation being correctly defined as judgement. and that judgement is DEATH not LIFE. Death Hell and the grave shall be destroyed by Eternal fire. God being the Eternal fire that shall consume his enemies with the breath of his mouth.

 

[freelight]

factual symbology......

factual symbology......

That's a fact.

Of course eating Jesus flesh and drinking his blood are 'symbolic', NOT to be taken literally. We've covered this here, as Aimiel and I have been over this many times, see linked commentary.

Such a 'fact' if correlated to the metaphoric aspect of the saying, must refer to the spiritual life or substance that such tokens (flesh and blood) represent to the soul's life or its survivability. Hence the sharing of the life-force in union with Jesus is the life giving vitality one receives by being in communion with him. Only Spirit is life.



pj

 

[freelight]

popping bubbles.......

popping bubbles.......

Ben Masada wrote:

Jesus was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism.

That's one presentation of Jesus, but just what 'version' of Judaism he was faithful to, is another question.

He would not contradict the Torah which says in Genesis 3:22,23 that Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever.

I don't know if that 'interpretation' or 'assumption' is the only one available. You'll note Jesus directly challenges the 'Torah' in many other passages.

It means, they could not share with God the attribute of eternal life.

I don't agree with this 'assumption', just because the Torah is lacking any 'revelation' of soul's sharing in or partaking of the divine nature, receiving immortality. The NT rejects your position.

You are simply in conflict with reality.

- well,...you know how one person's 'perception' of 'reality' might differ in some respects than another. What is reality? How does one's limited perceptions and assumptions of 'reality' affect 'reality'?

Sometimes we have to keep questioning our concept of 'reality'.



pj

 

[Zeke]

daniel
forever is not the same as eternal.
Different words were used in this on purpose/for a reason
forever reflects in this verse. Aeon, of an age, period of time, within the earthly sense of time reflective of material time frame.

It is not an eternal state. Heaven and earth shall pass away including and especially death, hell and the grave.
the new heaven and earth shall not contain sorrow, misery.

Psalm 37:20New King James Version (NKJV)

20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.

only born again put on eternal life
wicked shall not obtain any type of life eternally.
they shall be consumed with destruction fire that brings Eternal/permanent death no chance of having life ever again. eternal is a permanent state and death eternally gives no option of life or awareness again. This comes after the eternal damnation. Damnation being correctly defined as judgement. and that judgement is DEATH not LIFE. Death Hell and the grave shall be destroyed by Eternal fire. God being the Eternal fire that shall consume his enemies with the breath of his mouth.

Yet ignorance isn't deemed unpardonable, plus the meaning of the wicked could just as well be pertaining to ones own youthful endeavors that need to be tamed and silenced Romans 7. All this extroverted theology should be preached in a house of mirrors seeing the image and symbol dominates over the inner application the substance was meant to be applied to.

 

[freelight]

understanding 'terms'.......

understanding 'terms'.......

daniel
forever is not the same as eternal.
Different words were used in this on purpose/for a reason
forever reflects in this verse. Aeon, of an age, period of time, within the earthly sense of time reflective of material time frame.

It is not an eternal state. Heaven and earth shall pass away including and especially death, hell and the grave.
the new heaven and earth shall not contain sorrow, misery.

Psalm 37:20New King James Version (NKJV)

20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.

only born again put on eternal life
wicked shall not obtain any type of life eternally.
they shall be consumed with destruction fire that brings Eternal/permanent death no chance of having life ever again. eternal is a permanent state and death eternally gives no option of life or awareness again. This comes after the eternal damnation. Damnation being correctly defined as judgement. and that judgement is DEATH not LIFE. Death Hell and the grave shall be destroyed by Eternal fire. God being the Eternal fire that shall consume his enemies with the breath of his mouth.

Again, we see that the logic and rational of some souls actually being 'terminated' as a final and eternal 'judgment' (call it a 'punishment' if you like), as the final inevitable consequence of 'sin' (the full embrace of iniquity) is reasonable by the law of consequence/compensation for the choices and actions a soul makes, which either foster life or death, as far as 'ultimates' are concerned, when the law of compensation commensurates its terms. "the wages of sin is death"...is it not? Death is death, and if it be final and eternal, it is thus so,...there is no 'life' or essence of divinity or personality-potential/survivability in a state of death (nothinginess, vacuity, unreality). Death is total negation. We could go on....

~*~*~

Previous dialogues on ECT here.

That some souls can choose a final/eternal death and actually 'perish' as some passages say, is more 'just', 'humane' and reasonable if we consider the law of free will, rather than a 'program' submitting wicked/unrepentant souls to a lake of fire, there to be tormented forever TO NO END. That is insanity. It speaks nothing of a God of love or wisdom, since there is no salvation, rescue or RELIEF from this state of suffering, which makes it bane against justice and a blight upon the good name of God, if that God is really LOVE. Divine Love,...eternal and infinite mercy... would have another way, more resourceful, allowing an end to such endless suffering, and that is in actual 'death' itself. Sin/iniquity fully ripened ends in death. Note this death is an 'end' (NOT an endless state of 'eternal conscious torment'). So here we have supports for 'soul-death', whose logics trump the insanity of ECT. Some souls die, other souls choose rebirth by the Spirit, the divine will, and receive the gift of immortality, becoming partakers of the divine nature. This is the 'conditional-immortality' view.

ECT advocates still have to contend with their own Aunt Marge or Uncle Bob being 'tormented in hellfire' forever (TO NO END, get that folks....'to no end, effect or resolve'), while still praising and worshipping their 'god', adoring him for his great and infinite love, his mercy with endureth forever. Anyone else see a problem with this picture?


pj

 

[freelight]

beyond metaphor......

beyond metaphor......

Yet ignorance isn't deemed unpardonable, plus the meaning of the wicked could just as well be pertaining to ones own youthful endeavors that need to be tamed and silenced Romans 7. All this extroverted theology should be preached in a house of mirrors seeing the image and symbol dominates over the inner application the substance was meant to be applied to.

Well, the terms 'death' and 'life' are symbolic, as if all language wasn't. Here though, we're challenging the concept of ECT. Since the book of Revelation is full of images/symbols, its apt to be 'interpreted' in so many ways,....the 'lake of fire' is a hard image to let go, toss in or out a few crispy critters. A fire burns as long as it has fuel,...then as its consumed, the fires go out, and ashes/dust remains,....the 'term' of the fire is only continuous as the fuel and passion that affords it. Suffering then is not forever, unless one can inflict upon himself an uncurable illness where there is no rest or peace ever.

As far as mirrors, go,...such is the illusion of mind. Creation itself is a reflecting hall of mirrors, but such exists by the creative Light that gives those images their 'appearances' or 'reality', however true or distorted. So, beyond all the 'maya',...'God' is the sole reality, while appearances come and go. Beyond all this, its still insane to believe a benevolent Creator maintains an eternal torment program for naughty kids and fallen angels,....giving them no other alternative but to BURN forever.



pj

 

[Simon Baker]

Yet ignorance isn't deemed unpardonable, plus the meaning of the wicked could just as well be pertaining to ones own youthful endeavors that need to be tamed and silenced Romans 7. All this extroverted theology should be preached in a house of mirrors seeing the image and symbol dominates over the inner application the substance was meant to be applied to.

very insightful, however, who on earth determines what is truly "wicked", or simply, confusion combined with carnal/animalistic (fleshly) desires and selfish pleasures. when or why does something become "wicked", or remain within the "limits" of "understandable sin" ? That is why ALL Sin died with Christ. once we know this, and Understand the entire Bible, even the New Testamant, we are Saved

 

[Simon Baker]

Well, the terms 'death' and 'life' are symbolic, as if all language wasn't. Here though, we're challenging the concept of ECT. Since the book of Revelation is full of images/symbols, its apt to be 'interpreted' in so many ways,....the 'lake of fire' is a hard image to let go, toss in or out a few crispy critters. A fire burns as long as it has fuel,...then as its consumed, the fires go out, and ashes/dust remains,....the 'term' of the fire is only continuous as the fuel and passion that affords it. Suffering then is not forever, unless one can inflict upon himself an uncurable illness where there is no rest or peace ever.

As far as mirrors, go,...such is the illusion of mind. Creation itself is a reflecting hall of mirrors, but such exists by the creative Light that gives those images their 'appearances' or 'reality', however true or distorted. So, beyond all the 'maya',...'God' is the sole reality, while appearances come and go. Beyond all this, its still insane to believe a benevolent Creator maintains an eternal torment program for naughty kids and fallen angels,....giving them no other alternative but to BURN forever.



pj

The brain creates meaning even where none exists. the human brain does things that are instinctive, that we are not aware of. most things, in fact. but yes, eternal conscience or "unconscience" torment is absurd. i suppose, if people feel no guilt or shame and no anguish or torment for their "evil" actions within a lifetime on earth, then there is a "universal Karma" that must exist. however, knowing deep inside, how Good and Loving God Is, Following Christ, and understanding what Jesus told Paul to tell EVERYONE, everything makes Perfect sense. Simon Baker Knows You !