Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[patrick jane]

I'll chime in again, just to note I've challenged the concept of 'ECT' (eternal conscious torment) and found it to be erroneous, immoral and problematic on many levels. We expose it here. ( blog-portal linking my earlier posts in this very thread).

ECT is antithetical to divine love and logic. Therefore, a whole paradigm shift in consciousness is required to properly handle the dynamics in the 'eschatology' of souls and what factors/principles determine the soul's 'condition' and its destiny. A 'god' who maintains a system where souls are eternally tortured TO NO END, is sadistic. There could be no reasonable explanation why a just and merciful god would allow or enforce such a system of unending punishment TO NO END. Punishments are given in a just system only in proportion to the crime committed, measure for measure, until the last farthing is paid. Then a law-breaker can make amends(restitution) in some form (repentance/reformation) to where he is restored to lawful living, in right relationship to life.

Punishment is 'corrective', 'reparative'. If it is not, there is no point in endlessing punishing.








pj

good post. i think i posted about this very subject early on tol, on my own, not knowing of ECT. my thoughts on the "unknown" come from within. when i began to pray for spiritual wisdom only, meditating on God's Word, combined with reason, logic and imagination, i have been able to connect everything to the Bible. people can say the Bible and God can't be proven, and i say, "prove it" ! - jk. but, we have witnesses and testimonies. why would i believe anyone else about the unknown ? - provable science is the only other factual data we have. we can't stop our mind from wondering, but we can keep it from wandering. did i make that up ? i'm sure somebody said it. -

 

[OCTOBER23]

PHYSICAL BODIES DIE.

ONLY SPIRIT BODIES LIKE SATAN'S MADE FROM SILICON LAST IN A FIRE :devil:

 

[patrick jane]

PHYSICAL BODIES DIE.

ONLY SPIRIT BODIES LIKE SATAN'S MADE FROM SILICON LAST IN A FIRE :devil:

that explains things = :mario:

 

[OCTOBER23]

JANE PATRICK,

THANKS.

HERE IS THE PROOF.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3dwl_H3CHw

 

[Aimiel]

Punishment is 'corrective', 'reparative'. If it is not, there is no point in endlessing punishing.

Simply because you don't understand The All-Knowing God's reasoning or logic in His Actions doesn't make you the judge of His Character or explain away His Choices. He is The One Who prepared hell for the devil and his angels and man is the one who chose to rebel just as Satan did. God cannot give part of His creation one punishment and defer to another, especially only because one of those 'thinks' that God has made an error in judgment. God doesn't need your permission or blessing to enforce His Judgments. Nor does He need counsel from anyone. He will reason with you, but He doesn't have to explain Himself to you.

 

[aikido7]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

I cannot accept an interpretation of Jesus that depicts him riding a pale horse and doing some "divine ethnic cleansing" at the end of the world. For gosh sakes, Revelations claims that the blood will flow so much that it will reach the level of the horse's bridle!

This is clearly John of Patmos' way of using Jesus for his own all-too-human tendencies of anger and revenge.

The church(es) at that time were being destroyed and persecuted by the Roman Empire under Nero. Historians believe that it was because of the Roman Emperor that crucified both Peter and Paul.

 

[Daniel1611]

The Bible says they will be tormented day and night forever. Conscious torment is indeed Biblical. It's the SDA's and now the New Age leaning Christians that are challenging the blatant scriptural statements regarding the torments of hell.

 

[Aimiel]

The Bible says they will be tormented day and night forever. Conscious torment is indeed Biblical. It's the SDA's and now the New Age leaning Christians that are challenging the blatant scriptural statements regarding the torments of hell.

They've been trying the same arguments for centuries, but hell is still hot and the Lake of Fire is still eternal conscious torment.

 

[resodko]

what happened to timmy?

 

[Word based mystic]

Hell is not eternal nor is the soul that is eternally damned. Damned equates a final permanent judgement.
That eternal/permanent judgement is eternal/permanent destruction with no chance of having life again.
Also referred to as Eternal/permanent death.

The scripture that relates to being tormented day and night forever is different in wording to (eternal). Forever is in relation to aeon or a period or age. it specifically is not (eternal) the day and night also point to an age or period.
Heaven and earth shall pass away. The new heaven and earth Which is related to a new age or period specifically implies that death hell and the grave has been swallowed up/consumed/destroyed. There shall be no more tears.

eternal torment is also not in the character of God as a father. creating someone and then punishing him to be tortured for eternity because he used free will and chose not go Gods way.
Genesis lays this out in Gen 3:22
Where God specifically does not want man in his state of decay, sin and misery to take and eat of the tree of life and live eternally in such a miserable state. This is not Gods heart and is the reason He stopped man from partaking of eternal life in that state.

please do a comprehensive word study on those related scriptures that discuss forever, eternal, death, destruction and damnation.
As well as search your heart as to whether you as a father would give your own child free will and then when He chose to not go your path you would take him out in a barn chain him up and let torturers torment your child all the while you listening next door for all eternity with never a point of Bringing permanent death to them.

those that receive (eternal LIFE) are those that are born again. Those that are not born again do not receive ETERNAL LIFE. neither do they receive eternal life in a different plane or heavenly realm called hell.
Hell is temporary and the Eternal flames shall destroy Hell in the same fashion as death is destroyed. NO MORE DEATH.
A new heaven will appear (without death, hell or the grave)

They will NOT receive eternal life in ANY fashion.

 

[freelight]

Getting real on the issue.........

Getting real on the issue.........

The Bible says they will be tormented day and night forever. Conscious torment is indeed Biblical. It's the SDA's and now the New Age leaning Christians that are challenging the blatant scriptural statements regarding the torments of hell.

The translation issues of 'forever and ever' in the original greek have been taken on elsewhere, signifying a limited duration, if you want to get technical over the original languages which do suffer 'distortion' when translated into another language (in this case, English).

See Battle Royale XII: Will unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire? - pastorkevin vs. logos_x (here)

Our followup thread discussing the debate here (I recently revived this). - its a very long thread......

Leaving the translation issues asides, we have the moral, rational and logical issues to deal with a 'God' maintaining and enforcing conscious beings (fallen angels or human souls) to an eternity of endless suffering TO NO END. (are you getting that??? - to no end!)

Philosophically, its a quagmire of complexities, even if we assume that souls can inflict upon themselves a state of endless torments by being in an inwardly iniquitous state, being caught in what appears to be an endless loop of self-induced misery, reaping consequences for sin ad infinitum. If we apply the universal law of karma, it is a law of perfect compensation, for one only suffers to the degree of their sin, and only pays in proportion to its serverity if we apply some sense of quality or quantification of sin. For souls to be "tormented forever and ever" (literally, whole bodily) is insanity.

A more sane view is the logic of equal compensation measured by a providence both just and merciful, with either some souls suffering an eternal death as the ultimate consequence for full embrace of iniquity (not an endless conscious punishment, stuck in that state forever)....or the ultimate restoration and salvation of all thru correction, purification, reparation of sins, punishments and purifications being 'redemptive'/'restorative' in nature.



pj

 

[Word based mystic]

freelight I almost responded to your post without reading your final paragraph.

Glad I did. even though your karmic balance issue is something for me to chew on. I do believe your more on my page than not. I would have mentioned the punishment fits the crime but I was already typing too much.

Like the judge making sure that you paid every last bit in prison for the crime you commit. Implying some more punishment than others.

this judgement vain of thought re affirms that Carnal sins are both limited, carnal and earthly and thus are viewed as limited sin and thus limited punishment.
But I will stand firm that no one being born again in Christ will receive eternal life.
I was using a word study in strongs concordance on those words and unless there is serious problems with strongs greek translations I can't see much variance.
I will try to lookup that battle royale. I am new and not good at navigating here.

Genesis and Gods view on not wanting man in such a state is relational and love based in theme. I tend to go with the main themes and the more numerous and weighty focus in scripture when viewing a questionable doctrine.

 

[Zeke]

The Body is the tomb/coffin/cross/hell/Sepulchre/ belly of a great fish/ the far off land of the prodigal Son/Soul, who was sent on a journey that cost him is royal status/inheritence and left him in a state of death that is none other than what the esoteric Sages and Masters called different types of being dead, die, deaths, sleep/ blind, ignorance/fruits of the flesh, etc, which contributes to the resurrection of the Soul/Solar spark of the Divine within the seed vault. Everyone spends some time with Jonah in that allegory of pure mysticism referring to the body where Gods Kingdom/temple is built in silence which is a 7/8 watery incubator/womb for the eternal Soul's many journeys into deaths spiritual awakenings Isaiah 53:9 (deaths not death) Hebrews 12:23 before the Soul's memory is to fully be regained back to Christ conscience 1Sam 2:6, Luke 15:24.

 

[freelight]

God Almighty.............

God Almighty.............

freelight I almost responded to your post without reading your final paragraph.

Glad I did. even though your karmic balance issue is something for me to chew on. I do believe your more on my page than not. I would have mentioned the punishment fits the crime but I was already typing too much.

Hello Wbm,

Also don't forget my previous post here, see my link there cataloging many of my previous posts here, to see where I'm coming from and what philosophical perspectives and metaphysical questions I'm elaborating in the ECT (eternal conscious torment) issue.

Indeed,....as touched on before,...justice only demands equal compensation of consequences per the specific sin committed, until the wages are paid. The law of karma correlates here, synthesizing both eastern/western concepts of actions and their consequences.

Like the judge making sure that you paid every last bit in prison for the crime you commit. Implying some more punishment than others.

Yes,....justice demands exact compensation to satisfy the terms of restitution, repayment, restoration....in exact measure. Hence the term, "measure for measure'. Mercy allows and inspires the restoration to encourage humility, repentance and right living.

this judgement vain of thought re affirms that Carnal sins are both limited, carnal and earthly and thus are viewed as limited sin and thus limited punishment.

Yes, for a finite mortal human mistake, sin, shortcoming can never merit an infinity or eternity of endless punishment, also considering all that is mortal/carnal is but temporal, corruptible anyways,...it is not the enduring eternal substance of pure spirit or divinity, that alone is incorruptible having divine potential and immortality.

But I will stand firm that no one being born again in Christ will receive eternal life.

Did you word the above correctly? :think:

I was using a word study in strongs concordance on those words and unless there is serious problems with strongs greek translations I can't see much variance.

Research and study pays

I will try to lookup that battle royale. I am new and not good at navigating here.

Super. Navigation? ask and you shall receive - The after-debate discussion thread I linked after the original Battle Royale is very long, I chime in later on and take on pastor Kevin and other die-hards, promoting my "triumph of Love and victory of divine will" trump card,...holding a more 'Universalist' view,...sharing my sentiments at that time. I see Universalism as being much more feasible than ECT, but then there is the conundrum of 'free will' involved here, and how that is resolved ultimately in the reunion of souls with God from a universal salvation perspective. In Christian Universalism, all souls ultimately are drawn to Christ and reunite with God, their own wills being converted by love itself, as if such was indeed 'irresistible' at last After all, isn't God's Love all-powerful, infinite, eternal, absolute, all-pervading, all-encompassing?

Genesis and Gods view on not wanting man in such a state is relational and love based in theme. I tend to go with the main themes and the more numerous and weighty focus in scripture when viewing a questionable doctrine.

:thumb:



pj

 

[freelight]

letter, form and substance........

letter, form and substance........

The Body is the tomb/coffin/cross/hell/Sepulchre/ belly of a great fish/ the far off land of the prodigal Son/Soul, who was sent on a journey that cost him is royal status/inheritence and left him in a state of death that is none other than what the esoteric Sages and Masters called different types of being dead, die, deaths, sleep/ blind, ignorance/fruits of the flesh, etc, which contributes to the resurrection of the Soul/Solar spark of the Divine within the seed vault. Everyone spends some time with Jonah in that allegory of pure mysticism referring to the body where Gods Kingdom/temple is built in silence which is a 7/8 watery incubator/womb for the eternal Soul's many journeys into deaths spiritual awakenings Isaiah 53:9 (deaths not death) Hebrews 12:23 before the Soul's memory is to fully be regained back to Christ conscience 1Sam 2:6, Luke 15:24.

- those cognizant of the esoteric/allegorical/gnostic insights into holy writings, mythology and sacred writ, can correlate these metaphors and symbols, yet some involved in the objective/exoteric forms of religion, hold to the more literal interpretation, not seeing into the deeper soul-meanings and spirit-insights of the language-forms. All mental/material forms correlate to the experience of mind and spirit on a soul-level, of course,...but we have different ways of navigating such language, as we see in the various religious methods, culture-contexts and approaches here.

"the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life".

In the lake of fire metaphor,...all is eventually consumed to nothingness, back to the pure aether or anatomy of Spirit, pure consciousness


pj

 

[patrick jane]

Hello Wbm,

Also don't forget my previous post here, see my link there cataloging many of my previous posts here, to see where I'm coming from and what philosophical perspectives and metaphysical questions I'm elaborating in the ECT (eternal conscious torment) issue.

Indeed,....as touched on before,...justice only demands equal compensation of consequences per the specific sin committed, until the wages are paid. The law of karma correlates here, synthesizing both eastern/western concepts of actions and their consequences.



Yes,....justice demands exact compensation to satisfy the terms of restitution, repayment, restoration....in exact measure. Hence the term, "measure for measure'. Mercy allows and inspires the restoration to encourage humility, repentance and right living.



Yes, for a finite mortal human mistake, sin, shortcoming can never merit an infinity or eternity of endless punishment, also considering all that is mortal/carnal is but temporal, corruptible anyways,...it is not the enduring eternal substance of pure spirit or divinity, that alone is incorruptible having divine potential and immortality.



Did you word the above correctly? :think:



Research and study pays



Super. Navigation? ask and you shall receive - The after-debate discussion thread I linked after the original Battle Royale is very long, I chime in later on and take on pastor Kevin and other die-hards, promoting my "triumph of Love and victory of divine will" trump card,...holding a more 'Universalist' view,...sharing my sentiments at that time. I see Universalism as being much more feasible than ECT, but then there is the conundrum of 'free will' involved here, and how that is resolved ultimately in the reunion of souls with God from a universal salvation perspective. In Christian Universalism, all souls ultimately are drawn to Christ and reunite with God, their own wills being converted by love itself, as if such was indeed 'irresistible' at last After all, isn't God's Love all-powerful, infinite, eternal, absolute, all-pervading, all-encompassing?




:thumb:



pj

i do understand what you are saying. i still haven't gone to your other posts or links. i've been "working" alot lately. i'm not being aloof or boastful, but whenever i read anything, i generally find that i have already thought of it in some variation. once i went deeper into the Bible looking for answers, i found that i had already been thinking abot God's Word. everybody is, whether they realize it or not. God meets us all in His/Her Perfect Timing. where we are. not where we think we have to be - freelight, first skip all the boring Bible stuff and freak out on the exciting stuff. it's all exciting when you see it. it really is fascinating. sometimes i wonder how many people base their whole view or opinion of Christianity on a few visits to a church or TV and news, or rumors and other people's opinions. that's why i had to see something exciting (selfish) in the Bible. it's there. God has done major work on my selfish pride. i don't see pride , ego or selfishness in your posts, jsut so you know. i was focusing on me there. always me, huh ? - lol. i know i will have more time soon to talk to you, thanks again

 

[Word based mystic]

oops I did not correctly type that. Anyone born again will receive eternal life.
anyone not born again will not receive life eternally. The spirit man needs to be birthed By The substance and power of Spirit/God. That allows Spirit to spirit communion with the father. That spirit substance has endless (stretchability) to be capable of being filled with all the fullness of God.

 

[freelight]

Conditional Immortality......

Conditional Immortality......

oops I did not correctly type that. Anyone born again will receive eternal life.
anyone not born again will not receive life eternally. The spirit man needs to be birthed By The substance and power of Spirit/God. That allows Spirit to spirit communion with the father. That spirit substance has endless (stretchability) to be capable of being filled with all the fullness of God.

I gather then that you hold to a 'conditional immortality' point of view, which means only souls who choose eternal life and 'fuse' with the Spirit of God (so to speak), undergoing spiritual regeneration/renewal, with whole-hearted faith in God and the divine will....are qualified to 'put on immortality'. This view of course is concurrent with most of those who believe in 'soul-death', whereby the unrepentant wicked and those who are wholly given over to iniquity, truly DIE (they undergo disintegration), are expunged from existence, forfeiting their personality-survival and potential; they become 'no more'. This is only after all opportunities for salvation and repentence have been exhausted, and the soul has truly made a final choice for 'annihiliation'. This is the 'second-death'....from which there is no resurrection.

There are however some descrepancies over what aspects of the soul 'die' and if there are any aspects of a once living soul, that somehow survive. Some sources speak of the valuable aspects of soul-experience and memories being passed on into the Collective Consciousness, or being retained in the immortal God-fragments that once indwelt a deceased mortal, so there that the good of a lost mortal's life is never lost, even though they did not survive. In other words, nothing of eternal value or experience is ever lost, even if some souls ultimately choose death. These are from non-canonical sources, as of course the Bible is not replete in describing these things, but other writings go into greater detail and speculation. I go more into this in my ECT blog portal here.



pj

 

[Ben Masada]

oops I did not correctly type that. Anyone born again will receive eternal life.
anyone not born again will not receive life eternally. The spirit man needs to be birthed By The substance and power of Spirit/God. That allows Spirit to spirit communion with the father. That spirit substance has endless (stretchability) to be capable of being filled with all the fullness of God.

What a complication! Isn't it much easier to admit that only God is eternal? Eternity by definition is a condition of no beginning and no end. Only to have a beginning, one can no longer be eternal. Hence, only the One Who never had a beginning and will never have an end is Eternal. That's HaShem, praise the Lord!

 

[freelight]

Considering the Eternal or Infinite ItSelf.........

Considering the Eternal or Infinite ItSelf.........

What a complication! Isn't it much easier to admit that only God is eternal? Eternity by definition is a condition of no beginning and not end. Only to have a beginning, one can no longer be eternal. Hence, only the One Who never had a beginning and will never have an end is Eternal. That's HaShem, praise the Lord!

Let us dissect the above for a deeper observation, as we do accept that only 'God' is without beginning and end, truly the One Alone Infinite,....yet when the good news of Jesus is received, with it comes the promise of eternal life or immortality, so that even though mortals appear to have a beginning in time, they may receive the gift of immortality and therefore live indefinitely (survive in the endless ages to come). Therefore in the context, the soul has 'immortality-potential' as we've shared earlier,...there is no complication in this, since a soul becomes a 'partaker of the divine nature', and by becoming a partaker, merging with the eternal Spirit, that soul and 'God' become ONE. It is then the life, consciousness and substance of 'God' alone, that is the one indivisible reality, being Pure Spirit. This Spirit-life has quickened/made alive the soul into its own likeness.

As one draws from the radiant life of God, which is ever-dynamic, ever-present,...that 'life' itself is 'eternal', 'infinite', 'divine', 'immortal'. 'God' is One. There is no 'other' besides 'God'. 'God' is One without a second. God is all there is....of all there is. There is only that Infinite ONE. This is understood from the perspective of 'God' himself seeing thru the eyes of his His own OMNIPRESENCE. This is the perspective of 'non-duality', since in the allness of God, there is no 'God' and 'another', (there is not two)....since 'God' knows no 'other' besides Him. There is Only 'God'.

There is only the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent PRESENCE,...and that presence is All There Is...no matter what transformations appear....or come and go (as movements) in the play of creation. 'God' is ever the unchanging heart-reality ancestral to all, supporting all, being all, transcending all.
God alone is truly INFINITE. No-one or no-thing else is.

~*~*~

Now from your perspective, being more of a traditional-orthodox Jewish theology,...'God' is wholly 'other', so there is a great/vast distance/divide between man and 'God',....and the breach can hardly be filled except by animal sacrifice, repentance, prayer or good works.

The Hindu view is different, since 'Brahman' is the universal ground in which all things and beings inhere, in which all souls move, live and have their being. All partake of the life-essence of Brahman, and their innermost soul is 'atman', which is made of the same reality-substance of Brahman, so there is no difference in quality, but only quantification or individualization of God in the appearance of bodies in space and time; there is only one universal essence and consciousness. Some schools do differentiate the inner soul essence (atman) from the Universal Supreme Soul (Brahman), to varying degrees, yet God is still the source of all. Others in the more pure non-dualist schools consider 'atman' and 'brahman' as ONE. Therefore the one who realizes the God-Self as Being,....that "I" of pure consciousness is 'God'. Nothing exists nor can ever be, apart from the "I" of Awareness. This Universal "I" is God, but 'God' is more, and is even prior to the arising of the "I" (recognition of one's own existence), from the realm of the Unconscious, the Unknowing or Unknowable, the very root of consciousness itself. The "I" just arises as the 'first-thought' or 'self-reflection of knowledge',...but 'Real God' or 'parabrahman' is prior to it, being its very source. Hence in the uttermost reaches of infinity, 'God' is the Unknown/Unknowable....the Mother of all knowledge/knowing.




pj