Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Nang]

God's Truth proves to be an enemy of the grace and faith that saves, and is a wicked spirit allowed to be on this site, for what reason I cannot fathom.
May all the children of God be warned against the lies and perversions of scripture this ungodly person continuously vomits forth!

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth proves to be an enemy of the grace and faith that saves, and is a wicked spirit allowed to be on this site, for what reason I cannot fathom.
May all the children of God be warned against the lies and perversions of scripture this ungodly person continuously vomits forth!

You are the enemy of God. You are a Calvinist that has a gangrenous doctrine.


2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

Acts 14:2 But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

 

[Timotheos]

Of course, there are scriptures that show us we have to believe. All the scriptures that tell us to believe---they do not nullify the scriptures that say obey.

You tried to nullify the scriptures I gave that tells us we have to obey. You tried to nullify those scriptures with the scripture that said to believe.

We have to believe and obey.

Faith without obedience is DEAD FAITH.

Living faith is faith with obedience.

See James 2:14, 2:17, 2:22.

That scripture says God so loved the world.

God love 'us' is in general.

God does not even know you unless you love Him, and we love God by obeying.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Thanks, but I was referring to another part of John 3:16.
Here is the entire verse:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." ESV

This is saying that whoever believes in him will not perish,
whoever believes in him will have eternal life,
whoever doesn't believe in him will perish,
and whoever doesn't believe in him will not have eternal life.

I am aware that we will all die one day, if Jesus does not return within our life span. But Christians are raised from death and given eternal life so even though we will die, we will not perish. Those who reject the Son of God will perish because they do not have the gift of eternal life.

 

[Totton Linnet]

All will be resurrected...some to eternal reward other to eternal punishment.

All the lying in the world will never change God's will.

 

[Timotheos]

All will be resurrected...some to eternal reward other to eternal punishment.

All the lying in the world will never change God's will.

I hope that you don't think that I am lying. John 3:16 really does say that "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".

I agree that all of the lying in the world will not change God's will. Let's look together at what the Bible says God's will is. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV
See what it says? God is not willing that any should perish. However, this also says that is what will happen to those who refuse to come to repentance.

Now, I'm going to assume that you are not accusing me of being a liar, because that would be a false accusation, without any evidence. It would be bearing false witness against your neighbor, which is a violation of the Ninth Commandment of God Almighty. Do you wish to oppose Him?

 

[jamie]

Thanks, but I was referring to another part of John 3:16.
Here is the entire verse:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." ESV

We should keep John 3:16 in the context of NT scripture, not isolate it from the rest of the NT to try to make it say something it doesn't.

 

[Timotheos]

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:8

The message of the cross is foolishness to some, some even call it "lying".
I don't. Christ's death on the cross is the power of salvation to those of us who put our faith in Him for the payment of our sin debt, the debt of death that we owe.

Call the message of the cross "lying" or "foolishness", it is the power of God that brings salvation to all who put their faith in Him.

 

[Timotheos]

We should keep John 3:16 in the context of NT scripture, not isolate it from the rest of the NT to try to make it say something it doesn't.

Thank you, I didn't make it say something it didn't. I quoted it exactly. We should not make it say something it doesn't, such as "whoever believes in him shall not be tortured alive in hell forever".


What does John 3:16 say in Your Bible? What does Romans 6:23 say?
Please tell me in the Bible's Words, what these verses say, and please don't tell me that they mean the opposite of what they say. Go ahead.

 

[jamie]

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:8

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:18)​

If you keep Paul's statement in context with NT teachings you will realize there are two groups of people being spoken of here. There are those who are being saved during this age and there are those who are not being saved during this age.

It should be obvious to the most casual observer that "Christians" are a minority with regard to the earth's population. Why?

The answer is simple, God is not calling everyone to a relationship with Jesus Christ at this time during this age. He is leaving the majority of mankind free to go its own way.

The United States is not a Christian nation.

 

[Timotheos]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)​

If you keep Paul's statement in context with NT teachings you will realize there are two groups of people being spoken of here. There are those who are being saved during this age and there are those who are not being saved during this age.

It should be obvious to the most casual observer that "Christians" are a minority with regard to the earth's population. Why?

The answer is simple, God is not calling everyone to a relationship with Jesus Christ at this time during this age. He is leaving the majority of mankind free to go its own way.

The United States is not a Christian nation.

I agree with you, but my point was that it should be obvious that "those who are perishing" are "perishing", not "remaining alive forever in hell being tortured alive forever instead of perishing". For believing what Paul (and Jesus) said in the Bible, I am called a liar by some people on this forum. It's offensive, but I realize that the message of the cross is foolishness to them.

 

[jamie]

I agree with you, but my point was that it should be obvious that "those who are perishing" are "perishing", not "remaining alive forever in hell being tortured alive forever instead of perishing".

Yes, those whom God is not calling to Jesus Christ are perishing with regard to the kingdom of God, which is what the NT is about. Jesus preached the kingdom of God and Paul preached the kingdom of God.

During this age many will be called but only a few chosen to enter the kingdom of God. The rest will be in the second resurrection.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, those whom God is not calling to Jesus Christ are perishing with regard to the kingdom of God, which is what the NT is about. Jesus preached the kingdom of God and Paul preached the kingdom of God.

During this age many will be called but only a few chosen to enter the kingdom of God. The rest will be in the second resurrection.

Do you think that those who enter the kingdom of God receive eternal life?

 

[bybee]

All will be resurrected...some to eternal reward other to eternal punishment.

All the lying in the world will never change God's will.

Now Totton, I don't agree with you. I am not a liar...well almost never a liar!
When it comes to salvific beliefs I do not wish to tread on another's toes.
BECAUSE
If they seek to tread on my toes I come out fighting or singing and praising God!

It is easy to knock someone off a soap box but when one is in the trenches doing God's will one is on pretty solid ground!

 

[jamie]

Do you think that those who enter the kingdom of God receive eternal life?

That was the point of John 3:16. Also...

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order, Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

Then comes the end when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26)​

 

[Timotheos]

I do not wish to tread on another's toes.
BECAUSE
If they seek to tread on my toes I come out fighting or singing and praising God!

I agree, I don't want to fight with anyone. I also don't want anyone to call me a liar when I am not lying. If people would just say "I disagree with what you are saying because John 3:16 doesn't say 'whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life', it says God sends people to be tortured in hell forever", then we could have a nice discussion with Totten about what the Bible really says.

 

[Timotheos]

That was the point of John 3:16. Also...

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order, Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)

Then comes the end when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26)​

So do you think that those who do not enter the kingdom of God also receive eternal life?

 

[bybee]

So do you think that those who do not enter the kingdom of God also receive eternal life?

That would be an incongruency, would it not?

 

[Timotheos]

That would be an incongruency, would it not?

I think so. Why say that we receive eternal life as a gift from God if everyone already has eternal life? Why say that those who believe in the Son of God have eternal life if everyone has eternal life regardless of whether or not they believe in the Son of God?

If those who enter the Kingdom of God have eternal life, and those who do not enter the Kingdom of God do not have eternal life, how can those who do not have eternal life be tortured alive forever in Hell? They would need to have eternal life in order to be tortured alive forever in Hell. This inconsistency shows that Eternal Conscious Torment is not true, according the the Bible. People call me a liar, but can't tell me how it is possible for a person to simultaneously have and not have eternal life.

 

[jamie]

So do you think that those who do not enter the kingdom of God also receive eternal life?

They will be resurrected and the Book of Life opened to them. Then having been called to life they will choose life or they will choose death. Each person must choose for himself.

Once the Book of Life, which pictures salvation by grace through faith, is opened to them then they will then be judged according to their works at that time. They will be judged for the same reason we are judged according to our works, there is no difference between them and us other than the time of our calling.

 

[Timotheos]

They will be resurrected and the Book of Life opened to them. Then having been called to life they will choose life or they will choose death. Each person must choose for himself.

Once the Book of Life, which pictures salvation by grace through faith, is opened to them then they will then be judged according to their works at that time. They will be judged for the same reason we are judged according to our works, there is no difference between them and us other than the time of our calling.

If they "choose life" will they have eternal life?
If they "choose death" will they still have eternal life? Why wouldn't they die if they chose the death option? I agree that those who reject salvation by grace through faith will be judged according to their works. Since the works are sin, and the wages of sin is death, how is it that these people will not die, but have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever?