Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[God's Truth]

So you sold all and given the proceeds to the poor? or do you pick and choose which ones you obey?

If you fear God, then you will be careful when you read His word to not add or take away when you are reading. You will also not lean to the left or to the right.

Jesus does not tell everyone to sell everything they have and give it away to the poor.

God in the flesh was in front of the rich man. What an amazing happening, like no other ever. Jesus knows everyone's heart and knew the rich man thought more of his earthly riches than God's Truth.

Jesus said his teachings are not burdensome, but I am sorry to say you have made them burdensome.

It is not a sin to have money and material possessions. Paul explains that parents save up for their children. How do people save up for their children if they have nothing? Not only that, there are scripture for those who are wealthy in this world, and it is not to give it all away.

1 Timothy 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Originally Posted by freelight View Post
Beyond the technical issues of language, we've already seen that souls enduring a conscious existence confined to a lake of fire, in eternal torment, to no end...is well....senseless, besides insane.

Dear freelight,

Do you know you are calling Our Lord senseless and insane here? It's only because you don't want to believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), but I'm sorry, it exists! And if God deems it so, then that is completely up to Him. I can't believe you said it. You are treading on thin ice here.

Praise God!!

Michael

 

[Timotheos]

I was speaking to Zeke, not you and we were discussing his blasphemy, not yours. I guess you're not able to follow along in a conversation on TOL just as you cannot when you read Scripture. :duh:

Just trying to bring the thread back to the OP.

:duh:

When you talk this way, do you feel that you are a positive example of a Christian? I think you need to improve in this area.

 

[jamie]

Do you know you are calling Our Lord senseless and insane here? It's only because you don't want to believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), but I'm sorry, it exists! And if God deems it so, then that is completely up to Him. I can't believe you said it. You are treading on thin ice here.

Michael, you are promoting a fantasy. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal life. Life and death are mutually exclusive.

Eternal life is a gift from God for those who are in Jesus Christ.

If you keep bearing false witness, people are liable to think you are not truly one of the two witnesses. They may begin to doubt that you are an olive tree. You need to stick to the script and not ad lib.

 

[Ardima]

If you fear God, then you will be careful when you read His word to not add or take away when you are reading. You will also not lean to the left or to the right.

Jesus does not tell everyone to sell everything they have and give it away to the poor.

God in the flesh was in front of the rich man. What an amazing happening, like no other ever. Jesus knows everyone's heart and knew the rich man thought more of his earthly riches than God's Truth.

Jesus said his teachings are not burdensome, but I am sorry to say you have made them burdensome.

It is not a sin to have money and material possessions. Paul explains that parents save up for their children. How do people save up for their children if they have nothing? Not only that, there are scripture for those who are wealthy in this world, and it is not to give it all away.

1 Timothy 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

To add to this, I find that when the scriptures mention anything about material possessions, the focus is not actually on the possessions as much as it is on the time spent gaining them. The stewardship shown with ones possessions determins whether the time spent gaining them was or was not in vain. Time can never be gained only lost. We must be careful stewards of the time God has given us here on earth; and I dare say probably moreso with our time than with our possessions.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Zeke]

If you fear God, then you will be careful when you read His word to not add or take away when you are reading. You will also not lean to the left or to the right.

Jesus does not tell everyone to sell everything they have and give it away to the poor.

God in the flesh was in front of the rich man. What an amazing happening, like no other ever. Jesus knows everyone's heart and knew the rich man thought more of his earthly riches than God's Truth.

Jesus said his teachings are not burdensome, but I am sorry to say you have made them burdensome.

It is not a sin to have money and material possessions. Paul explains that parents save up for their children. How do people save up for their children if they have nothing? Not only that, there are scripture for those who are wealthy in this world, and it is not to give it all away.

1 Timothy 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

That's Pauls version, Jesus tells the rich young ruler to sell all and follow him! parts of Acts also shows the believers did the same thing, pick and choose dogma just like I thought you would do. The literal jigsaw puzzle makes for a maze of contradictions and waffling.

They also taught the Lord was coming in their life time, if you take that as a literal coming then your scripture is clearly not trust worthy then or now.

 

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by freelight View Post
Beyond the technical issues of language, we've already seen that souls enduring a conscious existence confined to a lake of fire, in eternal torment, to no end...is well....senseless, besides insane.

Dear freelight,

Do you know you are calling Our Lord senseless and insane here? It's only because you don't want to believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), but I'm sorry, it exists! And if God deems it so, then that is completely up to Him. I can't believe you said it. You are treading on thin ice here.

Praise God!!

Michael

The doctrine is insane.

I can find those who have had all types of near death experience, dreams, visions, etc... that counter your experience Micheal! common since shows your insane (yes INSANE) doctrine is irrational and inhumane, we should torment those on death row every minute until it is time for them enter eternity, get them prepared for Gods loving judgments.

 

[God's Truth]

To add to this, I find that when the scriptures mention anything about material possessions, the focus is not actually on the possessions as much as it is on the time spent gaining them. The stewardship shown with ones possessions determins whether the time spent gaining them was or was not in vain. Time can never be gained only lost. We must be careful stewards of the time God has given us here on earth; and I dare say probably moreso with our time than with our possessions.

God tells us to keep busy, and to work. However, being obsessed with gaining material possessions is, of course, wrong.

2 Thessalonians 3:11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."

 

[bybee]

Michael, you are promoting a fantasy. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal life. Life and death are mutually exclusive.

Eternal life is a gift from God for those who are in Jesus Christ.

If you keep bearing false witness, people are liable to think you are not truly one of the two witnesses. They may begin to doubt that you are an olive tree. You need to stick to the script and not ad lib.

Yes indeed! Either life or death. Eternal torture is eternal life.
And eternal torture is not in keeping with the attributes of our loving God.

 

[God's Truth]

That's Pauls version,

Paul speaks what God have him speak. Paul does not teach in opposition to the Lord.

Jesus tells the rich young ruler to sell all and follow him! parts of Acts also shows the believers did the same thing, pick and choose dogma just like I thought you would do. The literal jigsaw puzzle makes for a maze of contradictions and waffling.

You add and subtract God’s word.
Not everyone is a rich man that cares more about money than they care about God. Not everyone is rich period. Not everyone lived in communities where they share everything. Not everyone is to leave there home and become traveling ministers.
God gives understanding to those who love Him, those who obey Him.
You have no understanding, yet you think you can teach me about God.

They also taught the Lord was coming in their life time, if you take that as a literal coming then your scripture is clearly not trust worthy then or now.

Please use scripture so that I can answer you without assuming what you are referring.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes indeed! Either life or death. Eternal torture is eternal life.
And eternal torture is not in keeping with the attributes of our loving God.

Our spirits do not die when we die physically.

However, the spirits of those who go to the Lord after their physical death---that is called life, for being with Jesus is called life; those who reject Jesus, when they die physically, their spirit goes to hell, to prison, and that separation from God is called death. It is called death, even though they are living in hell by their spirit.

That is why Jesus says those who are STILL ALIVE physically on earth now but rejects him---that they are dead.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

 

[Timotheos]

Our spirits do not die when we die physically.

However, the spirits of those who go to the Lord after their physical death---that is called life, for being with Jesus is called life; those who reject Jesus, when they die physically, their spirit goes to hell, to prison, and that separation from God is called death. It is called death, even though they are living in hell by their spirit.

That is why Jesus says those who are STILL ALIVE physically on earth now but rejects him---that they are dead.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

The dead are actually alive forever in Hell being tortured is a lot to get out of "Let the dead bury their own dead". It's a major stretch. The verse doesn't say that, and there isn't any verse in the Bible that says "Dead people are actually not dead, they are alive and conscious". You have to extrapolate wildly in order to get literally living dead people. It is more likely that Jesus was speaking metaphorically in Luke 9:60. You know that He did that often. And what better term for someone who is going to be dead forevermore than "the dead"?

It is too much to demand that we believe that dead people are alive because of Luke 9:60.

 

[Zeke]

Paul speaks what God have him speak. Paul does not teach in opposition to the Lord.

You add and subtract God’s word.
Not everyone is a rich man that cares more about money than they care about God. Not everyone is rich period. Not everyone lived in communities where they share everything. Not everyone is to leave there home and become traveling ministers.
God gives understanding to those who love Him, those who obey Him.
You have no understanding, yet you think you can teach me about God.

Please use scripture so that I can answer you without assuming what you are referring.

Well your picking and choosing, which shows your not really a literal believer or you would follow Jesus and what he taught about being worthy, and obedient if your all in.
You add and subtract as well, and obey selectively even though you deny it with a strait face.

None of your post will ever be able to justify the doctrine, your pushing a lie, a delusion under the a false banner of God's Truth.

 

[Zeke]

If you believe this dogma and love your kids! then like I have said in the past drown them before they are accountable! it isn't worth taking the chance.

 

[God's Truth]

The dead are actually alive forever in Hell being tortured is a lot to get out of "Let the dead bury their own dead". It's a major stretch.

Just because you say it is a stretch, it does not make it a stretch.

I explained to you something important. I explained that the PHYSICALLY alive people are called the dead. Jesus calls the living ‘dead’. They are not nonexistent. Just as when the physical body dies, the spirit is not nonexistent.

The verse doesn't say that, and there isn't any verse in the Bible that says "Dead people are actually not dead, they are alive and conscious".

Believing and obeying Jesus’ teachings is to drink and eat his flesh and blood. Jesus says if we do that, we have life. He also says that he is food that ENDURES to eternal life.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

If we have food that ENDURES to eternal life, then when is the death?

You have to extrapolate wildly in order to get literally living dead people.

It is what Jesus says don’t you believe Jesus?

It is more likely that Jesus was speaking metaphorically in Luke 9:60.

Jesus is speaking Spiritually; and, that is what we are speaking of when we speak of living after the death of our physical bodies.

You know that He did that often. And what better term for someone who is going to be dead forevermore than "the dead"?

It is too much to demand that we believe that dead people are alive because of Luke 9:60.

It is spiritual; and, the scripture plainly shows us that the dead are alive.

 

[God's Truth]

Well your picking and choosing, which shows your not really a literal believer or you would follow Jesus and what he taught about being worthy, and obedient if your all in.
You add and subtract as well, and obey selectively even though you deny it with a strait face.

None of your post will ever be able to justify the doctrine, your pushing a lie, a delusion under the a false banner of God's Truth.

That is your worthless opinion of me. You are a false witness and a slanderer.

 

[God's Truth]

If you believe this dogma and love your kids! then like I have said in the past drown them before they are accountable! it isn't worth taking the chance.

God says do not murder.

 

[Timotheos]

It is what Jesus says don’t you believe Jesus?

Nice. I believe Jesus, I don't believe you.

Luke 13:3 "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish"

It's what Jesus says, don't you believe Jesus? Why don't you believe Jesus? Isn't Jesus your Lord? Why don't you believe Him? You should believe Jesus, He says that those who don't repent will perish. Do you think He is wrong too? Why do you think Jesus is wrong?

Okay, enough of that. Just because I don't believe you, that doesn't mean I don't believe Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Nice. I believe Jesus, I don't believe you.

Luke 13:3 "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish"

It's what Jesus says, don't you believe Jesus? Why don't you believe Jesus? Isn't Jesus your Lord? Why don't you believe Him? You should believe Jesus, He says that those who don't repent will perish. Do you think He is wrong too? Why do you think Jesus is wrong?

You did not even respond to what I said, and what I said proves you do not believe what Jesus says about living.

Okay, enough of that. Just because I don't believe you, that doesn't mean I don't believe Jesus.

You are speaking nonsense. Just because I asked why you did not believe Jesus doesn't mean I did not think you do not believe anything that Jesus says.

 

[God's Truth]

Try actually replying to what I did say.

The verse doesn't say that, and there isn't any verse in the Bible that says "Dead people are actually not dead, they are alive and conscious".

Believing and obeying Jesus’ teachings is to drink and eat his flesh and blood. Jesus says if we do that, we have life. He also says that he is food that ENDURES to eternal life.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

If we have food that ENDURES to eternal life, then when is the death?