Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[freelight]

soul destinies........

soul destinies........

We have free will. It is obvious by the fact that not everyone will be saved, because not everyone will repent.

God wants us to choose Him. God wants us to love Him of our own free will.

Yes,....I've covered this on many different points here (thru-out the thread).

The point in contention however is assuming that there is a point where a soul is unable to repent, having reached a point of no return, a total lost state, a 'condition' beyond any recovery whatsoever. You would have to prove such a condition can happen to a soul, where chooses an eternal 'death' or 'eternal state of torment and endless suffering upon itself'.

I have proposed that as long as a soul has the ability/capacity to return to God, to 'repent' (change its mind)...the way of salvation is always OPEN to it. This means according to the law of progress....all souls eventually begin to evolve, ascend and progress in their journey of life...even if there may be periods of stagnation or apparent retro-gression.....the inward principle of life and essence of 'God' in the soul inspires it ultimately forward.

There are other views of course and different schools of thought on the constitution of the soul/spirit and the potentials of both in the realm of its 'mortality' and 'immortality'.



pj

 

[God's Truth]

Yes,....I've covered this on many different points here (thru-out the thread).

The point in contention however is assuming that there is a point where a soul is unable to repent, having reached a point of no return, a total lost state, a 'condition' beyond any recovery whatsoever. You would have to prove such a condition can happen to a soul, where chooses an eternal 'death' or 'eternal state of torment and endless suffering upon itself'.

I have proposed that as long as a soul has the ability/capacity to return to God, to 'repent' (change its mind)...the way of salvation is always OPEN to it. This means according to the law of progress....all souls eventually begin to evolve, ascend and progress in their journey of life...even if there may be periods of stagnation or apparent retro-gression.....the inward principle of life and essence of 'God' in the soul inspires it ultimately forward.

There are other views of course and different schools of thought on the constitution of the soul/spirit and the potentials of both in the realm of its 'mortality' and 'immortality'.



pj

I believe before the Great White Throne Judgment, anyone who has not yet repented can.

I gave scripture that tells us that there will be some that will not repent.
Here are those scriptures again.

Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

 

[godrulz]

Rev. 6-19 is the Tribulation after the church rapture before the Second Coming of Christ. The millennium follows with the GWT at the end of it. It is primarily for the unregenerate and there is no post-mortem salvation. One can only be saved before death. Your verses apply to those before the Second Coming, not to those who are dead and raised 1000 years later before the eternal state at the GWT.

 

[freelight]

Different points of view.................

Different points of view.................

I believe before the Great White Throne Judgment, anyone who has not yet repented can.

I gave scripture that tells us that there will be some that will not repent.
Here are those scriptures again.

Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Hi GT,

While some passages do seem to indicate that some are not willing to repent, a universalist view holds that all souls eventually/ultimately do, so that 'God' becomes "all in all" and "even so shall all be made alive in Christ" (from a 'Christian' universalist perspective anyways, which emphasizes the redeeming work of Jesus as a central focus where 'mediation' and 'atonement' of some kind is made). In this light, certain judgments are given and suffering for 'sin' takes place by the universal law of compensation, since every thought, word and act produces corresponding effects (karma). - but eventually all are thru 'judgment' and 'suffering' moved towards repentance and progress towards good, within Love's ever-empowering and all-encompassing presence . This is one variation of a more universalist view. Therefore certain passages speak of judgments and consequences for sin (which must come about by law),....but these are remedial, corrective and ultimately reconciling measures reforming souls.

Since the greek word 'aion'(eon) has the meaning of an indefinite measure of time, a prolonged period (age/epoch),...the 'torment' of sin is not everlasting, but remedies itself either thru inspiring 'repentance'(reformation) or an eternal death (the loss of individual conscious existence as a living soul). Of course as contested earlier, this leaves out the concept of 'ECT' (which we've concluded is 'insane' not to mention 'inhumane') and leaves either 'soul-death' or 'universalism' as options within a 'biblical' context. Some contend that universalism was the prevailing view of the early church during the first 5 centuries, with some convincing evidence -

The Salvation Conspiracy: How hell became eternal

With the options of 'ECT', 'annihilation' or 'universalism' available...the most latter brings the greatest glory to God in the fulfillment of his eternal will and consummation of his divine love...since not a soul is ever ultimately lost. Here the divine will inspired by love triumphs at last!

In the other camp of 'annihilation', while the divine will and love ultimately reigns (in the whole),....the sovereignty of individual 'free will'(in the part) can over-ride the divine will and choose for itself a final death and disintegration of conscious existence, where that soul becomes no more, dissolving into nothing (absorbed back into the primal elements). This is the 'second death', from whence there is no return to life (it is not an eternal conscious torment or everlasting condition of pain, suffering and torture...since the soul actually and totally perishes).

To those who still cling to the concept of ECT, this denigrates God's nature and diminishes the power of his will(love) to accomplish its own ends, further impounding souls to an eternity of hopeless desolation. Its problematic on so many levels, let alone one's own moral conscience. What is more sickening is the religious ego's rationale (so twisted) to say "well they deserve it". - such mentality also inspired the crusades, witch hunts, genocides and religious wars thru-out history, 'believers' becoming the willing instruments of God's holy wrath meted out upon the wicked (who they deemed God's enemies) striking them down 'in the name of the Lord'.

Anyways,....I find myself coming back to an old slogan I used to hold, the "ultimacy of love and the triumph of divine will". This that is the 'nature' and 'inspiration' of 'God' in the soul of man, of God's own seed and essence, must by nature prevail and bear fruit. Only IF personal free will can annul the power of love and totally eternally alienate itself from an omnipresent 'God', and choose for itself eternal 'death', could we accept that some souls can or will choose 'death' (in its full, compelet, total and FINAL sense). - in this the debate still continues on whether 'death' here means merely 'seperation' from 'God' or means a true disintegration of conscious individual existence.



pj

 

[God's Truth]

Hi GT,

While some passages do seem to indicate that some are not willing to repent, a universalist view holds that all souls eventually/ultimately do, so that 'God' becomes "all in all" and "even so shall all be made alive in Christ" (from a 'Christian' universalist perspective anyways, which emphasizes the redeeming work of Jesus as a central focus where 'mediation' and 'atonement' of some kind is made).

I only believe what the Bible says. The Bible speaks of people not repenting.

In this light, certain judgments are given and suffering for 'sin' takes place by the universal law of compensation, since every thought, word and act produces corresponding effects (karma). - but eventually all are thru 'judgment' and 'suffering' moved towards repentance and progress towards good, within Love's ever-empowering and all-encompassing presence . This is one variation of a more universalist view. Therefore certain passages speak of judgments and consequences for sin (which must come about by law),....but these are remedial, corrective and ultimately reconciling measures reforming souls.

Since the greek word 'aion'(eon) has the meaning of an indefinite measure of time, a prolonged period (age/epoch),...the 'torment' of sin is not everlasting, but remedies itself either thru inspiring 'repentance'(reformation) or an eternal death (the loss of individual conscious existence as a living soul). Of course as contested earlier, this leaves out the concept of 'ECT' (which we've concluded is 'insane' not to mention 'inhumane') and leaves either 'soul-death' or 'universalism' as options within a 'biblical' context. Some contend that universalism was the prevailing view of the early church during the first 5 centuries, with some convincing evidence –

I do understand what you are saying. I just do not believe in what you are saying because it is not from the written Word of God.

The Salvation Conspiracy: How hell became eternal

With the options of 'ECT', 'annihilation' or 'universalism' available...the most latter brings the greatest glory to God in the fulfillment of his eternal will and consummation of his divine love...since not a soul is ever ultimately lost. Here the divine will inspired by love triumphs at last!

In the other camp of 'annihilation', while the divine will and love ultimately reigns (in the whole),....the sovereignty of individual 'free will'(in the part) can over-ride the divine will and choose for itself a final death and disintegration of conscious existence, where that soul becomes no more, dissolving into nothing (absorbed back into the primal elements). This is the 'second death', from whence there is no return to life (it is not an eternal conscious torment or everlasting condition of pain, suffering and torture...since the soul actually and totally perishes).

No one has proven to me with scripture that the unsaved do not live forever in the lake of fire.

To those who still cling to the concept of ECT, this denigrates God's nature and diminishes the power of his will(love) to accomplish its own ends, further impounding souls to an eternity of hopeless desolation. Its problematic on so many levels, let alone one's own moral conscience. What is more sickening is the religious ego's rationale (so twisted) to say "well they deserve it". - such mentality also inspired the crusades, witch hunts, genocides and religious wars thru-out history, 'believers' becoming the willing instruments of God's holy wrath meted out upon the wicked (who they deemed God's enemies) striking them down 'in the name of the Lord'.

I do not believe the spirit ever dies; therefore, how will a spirit cease from existing in the lake of fire?

Anyways,....I find myself coming back to an old slogan I used to hold, the "ultimacy of love and the triumph of divine will". This that is the 'nature' and 'inspiration' of 'God' in the soul of man, of God's own seed and essence, must by nature prevail and bear fruit. Only IF personal free will can annul the power of love and totally eternally alienate itself from an omnipresent 'God', and choose for itself eternal 'death', could we accept that some souls can or will choose 'death' (in its full, compelet, total and FINAL sense). - in this the debate still continues on whether 'death' here means merely 'seperation' from 'God' or means a true disintegration of conscious individual existence.

You speak about God’s love. How can you speak about God’s love when you do not do what God says? You believe in things not taught by God. We are not supposed to do that. We love and know God if we obey Jesus’ teachings.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear God's Truth,

Hell is not eternal. Hell is the bottomless pit. It has a center and a top, because of gravity, everyone thinks they're on top. So there is no bottom, just a top and a center. It is very hot in the center, with magma and lava, and compression and fire. But this hell shall be cast into the lake of fire in the very end (See Rev. 20:14). Now, I do care about you, so don't think I am trying to confuse you. Those cast into hell burn and they are alive. When others are thrown into the lake of fire, they are alive too. (See Luke 16:24). It speaks of a live soul/spirit in hell asking for a 'sip' of water from Lazarus, and Jesus said No. It's best if you read it for yourself. Death and Hell will also be cast into the lake of fire (our Sun, for the meantime), until it becomes a black hole, then a younger sun will be the lake of fire for all who are in it. They will burn FOREVER!!

OK, that should help answer this question. God Bless And Keep You Joyful And Safe,

Michael

 

[Zeke]

We have free will. It is obvious by the fact that not everyone will be saved, because not everyone will repent.

God wants us to choose Him. God wants us to love Him of our own free will.

Free will with big ultimatum hanging over your head! some free will your trying to sell.

 

[Timotheos]

Free will with big ultimatum hanging over your head! some free will your trying to sell.

I know, it seems more like the Godfather than God, the Father.
I'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

 

[Brother Vinny]

Free will with big ultimatum hanging over your head! some free will your trying to sell.

The ultimatum is just the natural by-product of logical consequence. Love isn't love unless one chooses to love--even in the Garden, there was a way out. God laid out an ultimatum there, too--not because He's unloving, but because the consequence of acting contrary to His command is necessarily spiritual death (separation from God).

We are meant to be eternal beings. How eternity fares for us is dependent upon our relationship to God in this present life.

 

[Zeke]

The ultimatum is just the natural by-product of logical consequence. Love isn't love unless one chooses to love--even in the Garden, there was a way out. God laid out an ultimatum there, too--not because He's unloving, but because the consequence of acting contrary to His command is necessarily spiritual death (separation from God).

We are meant to be eternal beings. How eternity fares for us is dependent upon our relationship to God in this present life.

They didn't have all the info now did they? the ability to understand what good and evil even meant was a foreign concept in their innocent condition.
So the guilt for such a lack of supervision of them in that ignorant and dangerous state isn't their fault.

Off coarse it never happened anyway so the moral of the story is about the adam and eve in all of us, who give birth to our own cains and ables metaphorically speaking.

The child state is Adam before conscience duality, or age of accountability, once that state is reached the natural comes first Cain, and then the spiritual able, until these are balanced they are in conflict with each other.

 

[Brother Vinny]

They didn't have all the info now did they? the ability to understand what good and evil even meant was a foreign concept in their innocent condition.
So the guilt for such a lack of supervision of them in that ignorant and dangerous state isn't their fault.

Off coarse it never happened anyway. . ..

Well then, we have nothing more to talk about.

 

[Zeke]

Well then, we have nothing more to talk about.

Yea I understand, it is kinda hard to defend a absent parent who then blames the kids, and the rest of their off spring for his own poor judgement, we are speaking logically right?, at least that is what you want to claim is your foundation for your side of the story where snakes talk and rotten apples wreck havoc on the whole creation, I disagree with your conclusions based on common sense, and also from being a father.

 

[God's Truth]

Dear God's Truth,

Hell is not eternal. Hell is the bottomless pit. It has a center and a top, because of gravity, everyone thinks they're on top. So there is no bottom, just a top and a center. It is very hot in the center, with magma and lava, and compression and fire. But this hell shall be cast into the lake of fire in the very end (See Rev. 20:14). Now, I do care about you, so don't think I am trying to confuse you. Those cast into hell burn and they are alive. When others are thrown into the lake of fire, they are alive too. (See Luke 16:24). It speaks of a live soul/spirit in hell asking for a 'sip' of water from Lazarus, and Jesus said No. It's best if you read it for yourself. Death and Hell will also be cast into the lake of fire (our Sun, for the meantime), until it becomes a black hole, then a younger sun will be the lake of fire for all who are in it. They will burn FOREVER!!

OK, that should help answer this question. God Bless And Keep You Joyful And Safe,

Michael

Michael,

That is not what I am asking. I am telling others they can convince me of their beliefs if they use scripture.

Show me from the scriptures that the spirit can die, and that the punishment in the lake of fire ends.

 

[God's Truth]

Free will with big ultimatum hanging over your head! some free will your trying to sell.

Why reject the greatest love?

 

[Zeke]

Why reject the greatest love?

Your version of love has much to be desired, and no real choice involved in the matter, love me or face the furnace sweet heart, a classic master slave relationship! your still in school trembling at the bottom of Sinai with fingers crossed.

 

[God's Truth]

Your version of love has much to be desired, and no real choice involved in the matter, love me or face the furnace sweet heart, a classic master slave relationship! your still in school trembling at the bottom of Sinai with fingers crossed.

If someone does not choose to love God, then why would I want to live in eternity with that person?

 

[Zeke]

If someone does not choose to love God, then why would I want to live in eternity with that person?

The one I love and respect isn't bound by a book, or doctrines that have been grafted on by religions that take allegory as historical truth, and think God had to murder an innocent being on a literal cross that is a metaphor for what takes place in the human temple.

The same inner teaching that is wrote in the stars and was known and taught before they where murdered by the so called followers of God, and reversed the true meaning of scripture so everyone was looking in the clouds for something that happens inside, making duped slaves in bondage to a book that even tells you the testament of the spirit is also within the human temple.

Like I said the truth speaks for it's self to the human heart.

 

[God's Truth]

The one I love and respect isn't bound by a book, or doctrines that have been grafted on by religions that take allegory as historical truth, and think God had to murder an innocent being on a literal cross that is a metaphor for what takes place in the human temple.

The same inner teaching that is wrote in the stars and was known and taught before they where murdered by the so called followers of God, and reversed the true meaning of scripture so everyone was looking in the clouds for something that happens inside, making duped slaves in bondage to a book that even tells you the testament of the spirit is also within the human temple.

Like I said the truth speaks for it's self to the human heart.

There is no greater love than a friend who will die for you.

 

[Ardima]

If someone does not choose to love God, then why would I want to live in eternity with that person?

No one can choose God except he draws them to Jesus. Not one of us in our sinful nature is capable of seeking Him except He draws us to himself. We are no better than the unbeliever but somehow God saw fit to draw us to Christ in this age.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Zeke]

There is no greater love than a friend who will die for you.

Yea but that is temporal and emotional, it doesn't deal with the secret place where no man can grasp through thought or deed, the love that passes mans understanding.

God doesn't need another mans blood spilled to teach one how to fill the lamp full of oil, produced in the brain that flows down the spine and back up a holy inner science your mistaking as a literal event outside your body.