Is Calvinism Wrong?

[Robert Pate]

Not for you to judge, for one thing, a completely fruiless waste of time commentary, for another, and clearly intended as a retaliatory insult to boot.


So Jesus is not of the Holy Spirit? Is that what you mean?

Sloppy!

What you should say is, "Calling people names and belittling them without cause...."


Precisely


Jesus did.


The moderators are not nicer than God is as almost all Christians are.

Clete

The only ones that Jesus called names were the unbelieving Pharisees. You are much like John W, a twister of the truth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The only ones that Jesus called names were the unbelieving Pharisees. You are much like John W, a twister of the truth.

He also called lawyers names.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A good witness does not belittle people by calling them names.

Robert,

Why not personally strive for what we all ought to do and leave the rest in the hands of God?

Spoiler

From the WLC...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?

A: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other 1 and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.2 We must come forward and stand up for the truth,3 speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,4 sincerely,5 freely,6 clearly,7 and without equivocation,8 not only in all matters relating to the law and justice 9 but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.10 We must have a charitable regard for others,11 loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation 12 as well as regretting 13 and putting the best light on their failings.14 We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,15 defending their innocence,16 readily receiving a good report about them 17 and reluctantly admitting a bad one.18 We should discourage gossips,19 flatterers,20 and slanderers;21 we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;22 we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;23 and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.24

1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.

Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,1 with special reference to legal matters in the courts.2 We must not give untrue evidence,3 suborn perjury,4 knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.5 We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,6 call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.7 Forgery is forbidden,8 as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,9 and not taking it on ourselves to reprove 10 or complain to others about some wrong.11 We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,12 or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,13 nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,14 into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.15 Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,16 as well as lying,17 slandering,18 backbiting,19 belittling,20 gossiping,21 whispering,22 ridiculing,23 reviling,24 and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,25 harsh,26 or prejudiced;27 misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;28 flattery 29 and ostentatious boasting;30 thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;31 denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;32 exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;33 concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;34 gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;35 spreading false rumors,36 receiving and approving evil reports,37 and refusing to listen to a just defense;38 harboring evil suspicions;39 being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,40 trying to discredit those honors,41 and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;42 scornful contempt 43 and foolish admiration;44 breaking our lawful promises;45 and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,46 and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.47

1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tim 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tim 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt 21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt 27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tim 3.3.
46. 1 Sm 2.24,2 Sam 2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

 

[Rosenritter]

This line ended our conversation(s). I answered your leading question without allowing you to put a ring in my nose. I know you don't like it but that doesn't matter to me.

You are one similar post away from my ignore list.

Don't push it. I'm not kidding.

An admission that "works" derives its meaning from its context ("works" of the Lord, "works" of the devil, "works" of the law, "works" of faith) is a "leading question" that would put a ring in your nose?

If you are going to criticize Robert for not answering simple questions then you should also be willing to answer simple questions. The "take the beam out of your own eye" or "he who is without sin cast the first stone" adage might apply.

You're not being called names, and you're not being threatened. Yet you are on a forum that primarily operates on asking and answering questions to help establish the validity of proposed ideas and beliefs. It's a time honored method even used by Jesus in the gospels.

 

[Rosenritter]

I recommend you read http://kgov.com/nice

OK, let's compare. How does this author apply his protest against "being nice?"

Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Men and women are different and they communicate differently. Women are softer and nicer than men, and thank God that they are. However, men are not supposed to be women. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers. Strength, confidence, conviction and tough love appeal to those who are searching. Thus Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker.

In contrast, the biblical author James the Just states in his letter:

James 3:13-18 KJV
(13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
(14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
(15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
(16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
(18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

It seems to me that Christians (who are the ministers of the world) are expected to behave as if they are wise and endued with knowledge...(MEN INCLUDED) and is it not written that a tree may be discerned by its fruits? What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Rosenritter]

John W attacked me (in this very thread) calling me 'Senile/having Dementia.' Did he have a good reason to believe it was TRUE? If not, then why say such a disparaging thing? JW also made the same accusation about Pate.

I also have a little experience with John: even unsolicited threat email stuffed with terms like "Get lost" ,"you wicked child of the devil", "your middle name is troll", "loser", and "quit littering my page and this board with your dung." Why does he hate me? Because I once told him that acting aggressive (like that) towards someone else might not be appropriate.

If someone is acting foolishly and this needs to be shown, it should be approached constructively. But you cannot prove "foolishness" by acting foolish yourself; you will never convince someone that your wisdom is "from above" when it is powered by the "spirit below." Insults and name calling aren't appropriate and aren't effective (for any good purpose) regardless.

 

[Rosenritter]

JW said the following to me in post #1208: "Coming from Mr. Irrelevant, who posts fluff, I consider that your weighing in, from the sidelines, bleachers, booing the real soldiers, troops, as a compliment. You're getting as senile, dementia infested, as Pate.

And you floored me with that "Think about it" stunner.

Was that necessary?

That's pretty mild for John actually.

 

[Rosenritter]

Robert,

Why not personally strive for what we all ought to do and leave the rest in the hands of God?

Spoiler

From the WLC...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?

A: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other 1 and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.2 We must come forward and stand up for the truth,3 speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,4 sincerely,5 freely,6 clearly,7 and without equivocation,8 not only in all matters relating to the law and justice 9 but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.10 We must have a charitable regard for others,11 loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation 12 as well as regretting 13 and putting the best light on their failings.14 We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,15 defending their innocence,16 readily receiving a good report about them 17 and reluctantly admitting a bad one.18 We should discourage gossips,19 flatterers,20 and slanderers;21 we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;22 we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;23 and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.24

1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.

Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,1 with special reference to legal matters in the courts.2 We must not give untrue evidence,3 suborn perjury,4 knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.5 We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,6 call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.7 Forgery is forbidden,8 as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,9 and not taking it on ourselves to reprove 10 or complain to others about some wrong.11 We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,12 or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,13 nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,14 into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.15 Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,16 as well as lying,17 slandering,18 backbiting,19 belittling,20 gossiping,21 whispering,22 ridiculing,23 reviling,24 and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,25 harsh,26 or prejudiced;27 misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;28 flattery 29 and ostentatious boasting;30 thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;31 denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;32 exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;33 concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;34 gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;35 spreading false rumors,36 receiving and approving evil reports,37 and refusing to listen to a just defense;38 harboring evil suspicions;39 being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,40 trying to discredit those honors,41 and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;42 scornful contempt 43 and foolish admiration;44 breaking our lawful promises;45 and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,46 and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.47

1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tim 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tim 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt 21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt 27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tim 3.3.
46. 1 Sm 2.24,2 Sam 2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

Forgery is forbidden,8 as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,9 and not taking it on ourselves to reprove 10 or complain to others about some wrong.

Perhaps this might fall under the category of not "remaining silent ..." and "not taking it on ourselves to reprove or complain to others about some wrong?"

 

[way 2 go]

The only ones that Jesus called names were the unbelieving Pharisees. You are much like John W, a twister of the truth.

:think:

Mat 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[glorydaz]

Why does he hate me? Because I once told him that acting aggressive (like that) towards someone else might not be appropriate.

I'm wondering if you will ever tire of assuming you know a person's feelings and motives. :think:



You've imagined you know the "reason" for this "hate".

I pointed to this problem of yours before, but you think too highly of yourself to listen. opcorn:

 

[glorydaz]

I think that you are dull of hearing. This is very typical when a Christian that is indwelt with the Holy Spirit tries to communicate with someone that does not have the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:14. You don't seem to understand simple spiritual truths.

The important premise being "IF a believer IS being a fool"

That is an issue that is somewhat a matter of opinion, but the point is that we are not condoning frivolous insults that are born out of someone just wanting to be a jerk for no reason.

I would like to add....Robert may use different words than John W, but he is guilty of doing what he accuses John W of doing. Perhaps Robert's words are more politically correct (the above posts were to RD), but they are derogatory false accusations, nonetheless.

Some say John W overdoes it, but I think Robert overdoes it....and Rossen overdoes it....and GT overdoes it....and on and on and on. If the intent is to demean, as Robert's are above, then it is no wonder he gets back three fold. Sow the wind...reap the whirlwind.

 

[glorydaz]

John W will personally attack ANYBODY that DARES to disagree with him. That's always been his M.O. I know that from personal experience. I realize that a portion of TOL's posters admire and respect JW's name calling/false accusations, so I'm not doing myself any favors by calling attention to his BAD behavior. However, I'm willing to lose any popularity I might have on TOL and even lose a few friends over it. Truth is truth, love or hate me, I desire to speak the truth, at any cost.

I think we all can see John's "behavior". Here is one thing I've noticed...when John is confronting someone and trying to get them to admit some error they have been preaching (like Robert's "New Adam" claim), and they refuse to even listen and even go so far as to accuse John of being unsaved, then they can expect a beat down.

He reminds me of Trump. Someone picks a fight and Trump will hit back harder.

Sometimes when a soft hearted soul steps in (as you did "Old GM"), they might reap some of the spill over. But, is it helping Robert any? I've tried to tell Robert the exact same thing about Jesus being the LAST ADAM, not the NEW ADAM, and Robert flat out REFUSES to even talk about it. Personally, I like Robert, and I even fell sorry for him, but he is far from innocent. I often wonder why he has to cross the line and accuse people of being unsaved. Why would he expect anything else, but a swift retort?

It reminds of of having to watch a kid being spanked. It's so hard to do....even when you know the kid deserves it, and it's for his own good. Had I not experienced John W's smack down, I'd still be claiming there was only one Gospel (for instance).

Anyway, I'm sure you'll lose no friends over speaking out. Robert, though, needs to take as well as he gives. It's only right.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Clete]

False comment.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

Saying it doesn't make it so.

What a completely total waste of time, you are. What are you even doing here?

Don't tell me!

God predestined that you'd come here to waste countless hours of your life convincing no one of anything.

 

[Clete]

The only ones that Jesus called names were the unbelieving Pharisees. You are much like John W, a twister of the truth.

I made no comment at all about who He called names. The point isn't about 'who' but 'why'.

But of course you knew that when you posted this hypocritically insulting tripe, which has been the gist of my primary point from the start.

 

[Clete]

An admission that "works" derives its meaning from its context ("works" of the Lord, "works" of the devil, "works" of the law, "works" of faith) is a "leading question" that would put a ring in your nose?

Of course! It's your primary premise upon which you want to establish a claim that Paul meant the opposite of what he said but that James spoke clearly.

If you are going to criticize Robert for not answering simple questions then you should also be willing to answer simple questions. The "take the beam out of your own eye" or "he who is without sin cast the first stone" adage might apply.

I answered your question, you just didn't like my answer because it was both obviously true and failed to accept your premise.

If you incinuate that I am being a hypocrite once more, I will put you on ignore and you can waste someone else's time.

That is your last warning. (I know, I know, you don't care about my warnings.)

You're not being called names, and you're not being threatened. Yet you are on a forum that primarily operates on asking and answering questions to help establish the validity of proposed ideas and beliefs. It's a time honored method even used by Jesus in the gospels.

One last time. I answered your question. If you think that either Paul or James was using the term "works" in a manner that renders it's meaning to be something other than "doing good and obstaining from evil" then I invite you to make an attempt to do so. Otherwise, stop being a cry baby over getting your bait taken without the hook being swallowed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

What a completely total waste of time, you are. What are you even doing here?

Don't tell me!

God predestined that you'd come here to waste countless hours of your life convincing no one of anything.

He's already been removed from the thread for trying to derail it by attacking RP.

 

[Clete]

I would like to add....Robert may use different words than John W, but he is guilty of doing what he accuses John W of doing. Perhaps Robert's words are more politically correct (the above posts were to RD), but they are derogatory false accusations, nonetheless.

Some say John W overdoes it, but I think Robert overdoes it....and Rossen overdoes it....and GT overdoes it....and on and on and on. If the intent is to demean, as Robert's are above, then it is no wonder he gets back three fold. Sow the wind...reap the whirlwind.

Thank you!

That has been precisely my point all along!

(You said it better than I did!)

Clete