Is America great?

The Berean

Well-known member
That's an excellent post. Well written and insightful. I only wish I were as optimistic about our ability to overcome our own narcissism and selfishness when we have to. I think we are fast approaching one of those moments in history (and it in fact may already be overdue), and I'm just not seeing the will to rise to the challenge. We aren't pulling together, this time. We're just falling further and further apart as a people. Our leaders aren't leading, but are exacerbating the problems tenfold, instead. I'm just not hopeful this time.

It is well established here at TOL that you are quite pessimistic, PureX, about pretty much everything. Why is that? :idunno: Was it your upbringing, your struggle with alcoholism, negative people around you, etc.? May I ask you a serious personal question. Is there any part of life that you truly enjoy? My life has been far from perfect as I have battled inner demons, self doubt, anger, hatred of self and others, etc., but even now at age 47 I still get up with a joy and optimism about facing the day ahead. I still enjoy my time with my wife and my profession as a mechanical engineer. I enjoy spending time with my Christian brothers and sisters in prayer and worship. I also enjoy my time with my non Christian friends as well.
 

PureX

Well-known member
It is well established here at TOL that you are quite pessimistic, PureX, about pretty much everything. Why is that? :idunno: Was it your upbringing, your struggle with alcoholism, negative people around you, etc.? May I ask you a serious personal question. Is there any part of life that you truly enjoy? My life has been far from perfect as I have battled inner demons, self doubt, anger, hatred of self and others, etc., but even now at age 47 I still get up with a joy and optimism about facing the day ahead. I still enjoy my time with my wife and my profession as a mechanical engineer. I enjoy spending time with my Christian brothers and sisters in prayer and worship. I also enjoy my time with my non Christian friends as well.
Please put your imaginary "PureX" away. It's an invention of your own making and has little to do with me.

If you are seeing lots of evidence that Americans are pulling together and acting to correct the wholesale corruption of government, the runaway wealth disparity, the abysmal lack of trust or respect for the institutions of government or the corporations that have an ever-increasing effect on all our lives, and that we are finding a new concern for the well-being and fair treatment of our neighbors, I'd love to hear about it. But I don't think you have any. And I sure don't see any evidence of it here on TOL. That's fine that you feel good about your own life. But you are one American among 320 million. And many of your neighbors are suffering. Needlessly. And unfairly. And my own relative tranquility doesn't erase that fact from my reality.

Is America great? In a word, no, it's not. It's in trouble. It's imploding under the weight of it's own ignorance and greed. You go ahead, now, and explain how I'm wrong.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Please put your imaginary "PureX" away. It's an invention of your own making and has little to do with me.
Baloney! I only go by what YOU post on TOL. You are usually negative. That is a fact. And many times you have stated you were once a drunk. Should I start a poll to see how many people think you are negative?

If you are seeing lots of evidence that Americans are pulling together and acting to correct the wholesale corruption of government, the runaway wealth disparity, the abysmal lack of trust or respect for the institutions of government or the corporations that have an ever-increasing effect on all our lives, and that we are finding a new concern for the well-being and fair treatment of our neighbors, I'd love to hear about it. But I don't think you have any.
Wrong answer. Again your negativity is blinding you. All you do is complain and rarely if ever offer any solutions at all.

And I sure don't see any evidence of it here on TOL. That's fine that you feel good about your own life. But you are one American among 320 million. And many of your neighbors are suffering. Needlessly. And unfairly. And my own relative tranquility doesn't erase that fact from my reality.
And you know this how? You don't know any of my neighbors. Again it is your negative attitude showing again. You really think EVERYONE is suffering? I guess that's how YOU see the world. And if your neighbors are suffering what do you about it?
Is America great? In a word, no, it's not. It's in trouble. It's imploding under the weight of it's own ignorance and greed. You go ahead, now, and explain how I'm wrong.

Did I claim that America is "great"? Nations come and go. What will happen to America who knows? But America is really not different from other developed nations in this respect.
 
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Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Baloney! I only go by what YOU post on TOL. You are usually negative. That is a fact. And many times you have stated you were once a drunk. Should I start a poll to see how many people think you are negative?


Wrong answer. Again your negativity is blinding you.

Well said,he cannot admit when he is wrong. On something as simple as a word definition, he cannot say;"oh I use the word in a more common way" and leave it like that. No, he has to insist his definition is actually correct!

You pegged him brother, he is full of baloney. I tried to cut him some slack, and he seems to do alright as long as there is no outright disagreement. When he is shown to be wrong, he has to deny it!

He is a wacko of the first order! Too bad actually, I think he could be less wacky, if he tried.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
america used to be great

america used to be selfless and recognized Godly morality

i hate what america has become

America was never selfless. You are correct about Americans having been once more a 'God centered' nation. We were once a more moral nation, not meaning right, but occupied with real questions on morality.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
It is well established here at TOL that you are quite pessimistic, PureX, about pretty much everything. Why is that? :idunno: Was it your upbringing, your struggle with alcoholism, negative people around you, etc.? May I ask you a serious personal question. Is there any part of life that you truly enjoy? My life has been far from perfect as I have battled inner demons, self doubt, anger, hatred of self and others, etc., but even now at age 47 I still get up with a joy and optimism about facing the day ahead. I still enjoy my time with my wife and my profession as a mechanical engineer. I enjoy spending time with my Christian brothers and sisters in prayer and worship. I also enjoy my time with my non Christian friends as well.

I gotta say, this is really uncalled for and pretty much a cheap shot all around. How's the view from your horse?
 

PureX

Well-known member
Baloney! I only go by what YOU post on TOL. You are usually negative. That is a fact. And many times you have stated you were once a drunk. Should I start a poll to see how many people think you are negative?
I don't participate on to TOL to cheer-lead the political and religious bias of the extreme right. Which is mostly what gets expressed and promoted around here. I'm here to share my perspective, which clearly differs from the status quo on TOL. So of course, if you agree with the status quo around here, you will see me as being opposed to it (taking the negative view of it) most of the time.

Also, I offer solutions all the time when despairing our current political and economic situation in this country. So you're just not paying attention, or you're willfully ignoring those posts, or both.

And finally, your whole assertion that I am always so negative came directly on the heels of a post to TH in which I expressed my appreciation for his clarity, his insight, and his optimism, which doesn't strike me as being a particularly negative thing to do. So frankly, I think your just full of … yourself.

But if it makes you feel better about yourself to think of me as some sort of dry drunk, you go right ahead. Because I know you don't know me at all.

By the way, here's a hint: you didn't say my posts are negative, you said I am negative. That's how I know you're slandering me in your mind.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
America was never selfless. You are correct about Americans having been once more a 'God centered' nation. We were once a more moral nation, not meaning right, but occupied with real questions on morality.
I agree with your opening, but I'm conflicted on the rest. On the one hand the America of my youth was a safer place for kids. I remember people would sometimes leave their cars running while they ran into the grocery store and not really worry about anyone taking it. You waved at strangers on a Sunday drive, when you saw any. My mother could give me and a cousin money and a time to be back and send us running among the crowd and rides littering downtown Mobile during Mardi Gras and we'd come back safe and sound. I could ride my bicycle around the post office late into the summer evening without a milk carton appearance. You knew where your neighbors were going to be on Sunday.

You knew your neighbors.

So it's impossible for me to ignore how much more dangerous and evil the world feels by comparison, how different my approach with Jack is in the micro. That said, there were larger evils that society kept us insulated from, national ones and quieter ones that moved through our communities like snakes.

A part of me thinks it's numbers. You have a hundred people and a bad apple they contain him. You have a thousand and ten evil people it gets a bit harder. You have a million people and a mobile, much larger group and they start really impacting. And the permissiveness of the sixties has bled into a remarkable lack of cohesion on public morals and expectation. I mean just turn on your television. Two Broke Girls trades on filth that would have shocked my parents at ten o'clock. It's a prime-time, over the air hit.

You can't trade every sense of standard in the name of freedom without reaping a whirlwind of some sort. So while I'm (and in light of this perhaps strangely) optimistic about us as a people in the broad strokes I do think we're going to have to stand for something more than individual liberty at some point to survive ourselves. We're going to have to couple that with a real sense of responsibility, both to one another and the nation. If we can regroup around that much we'll be all right.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Baloney! I only go by what YOU post on TOL. You are usually negative. That is a fact. And many times you have stated you were once a drunk. Should I start a poll to see how many people think you are negative?

This savage, preachy, smug arrogance of yours is disappointing and disgusting.

And you know this how? You don't know any of my neighbors.

And the lawyer wanting to justify himself asked: Who is my neighbor?

Again it is your negative attitude showing again.

Because as we know it's all sunshine and lollipops.

You really think EVERYONE is suffering? I guess that's how YOU see the world. And if your neighbors are suffering what do you about it?

Either you're naive, or extremely self-satisfied, or out of touch with reality, or PureX struck a nerve and you're overreacting.
 

bybee

New member
I don't participate on to TOL to cheer-lead the political and religious bias of the extreme right. Which is mostly what gets expressed and promoted around here. I'm here to share my perspective, which clearly differs from the status quo on TOL. So of course, if you agree with the status quo around here, you will see me as being opposed to it (taking the negative view of it) most of the time.

Also, I offer solutions all the time when despairing our current political and economic situation in this country. So you're just not paying attention, or you're willfully ignoring those posts, or both.

And finally, your whole assertion that I am always so negative came directly on the heels of a post to TH in which I expressed my appreciation for his clarity, his insight, and his optimism, which doesn't strike me as being a particularly negative thing to do. So frankly, I think your just full of … yourself.

But if it makes you feel better about yourself to think of me as some sort of dry drunk, you go right ahead. Because I know you don't know me at all.

By the way, here's a hint: you didn't say my posts are negative, you said I am negative. That's how I know you're slandering me in your mind.

There is a certain bleakness to your posts at times. Yet your sensitivity also shines through and it is that quality which makes your posts worth reading to me! I love that we may disagree and get chin to chin yet come away still friends!
I happen to like you!
 

PureX

Well-known member
I agree with your opening, but I'm conflicted on the rest. On the one hand the America of my youth was a safer place for kids. I remember people would sometimes leave their cars running while they ran into the grocery store and not really worry about anyone taking it. You waved at strangers on a Sunday drive, when you saw any. My mother could give me and a cousin money and a time to be back and send us running among the crowd and rides littering downtown Mobile during Mardi Gras and we'd come back safe and sound. I could ride my bicycle around the post office late into the summer evening without a milk carton appearance. You knew where your neighbors were going to be on Sunday.

You knew your neighbors.

So it's impossible for me to ignore how much more dangerous and evil the world feels by comparison, how different my approach with Jack is in the micro. That said, there were larger evils that society kept us insulated from, national ones and quieter ones that moved through our communities like snakes.

A part of me thinks it's numbers. You have a hundred people and a bad apple they contain him. You have a thousand and ten evil people it gets a bit harder. You have a million people and a mobile, much larger group and they start really impacting. And the permissiveness of the sixties has bled into a remarkable lack of cohesion on public morals and expectation. I mean just turn on your television. Two Broke Girls trades on filth that would have shocked my parents at ten o'clock. It's a prime-time, over the air hit.

You can't trade every sense of standard in the name of freedom without reaping a whirlwind of some sort. So while I'm (and in light of this perhaps strangely) optimistic about us as a people in the broad strokes I do think we're going to have to stand for something more than individual liberty at some point to survive ourselves. We're going to have to couple that with a real sense of responsibility, both to one another and the nation. If we can regroup around that much we'll be all right.
Humanity is always going to be a work in progress, because change is inevitable.

The 1960s had a huge effect on the culture of the United States, and on the culture of the world. And as would be expected, that effect had it's positive and it's negative sides. The positive side was that those hidden social and cultural "snakes" you referred to were brought out in the open, and a lot of people who would not have otherwise acknowledged them were forced to do so, and to end their participation in that persistent evil. The subjugation of women and people of color was finally brought to light in a way that made us deal with it. The warmongering of the wealthy elite, at the expense of the lives and limbs of everyone else was finally brought to light, and at least for that moment, put a stop to. The true meaning of freedom, and of democracy, was finally being explored and tested beyond just words and pledges, for all the world to see.

And these were good things, even though a great many of us hated them at the time, and some of us still do. And these great cultural steps forward naturally caused a lot of confusion, and resentment, and fear and anger. And those conditions can have some very negative consequences. As they open the door for our more selfish and violent inclinations. Individual freedom needs to be tempered with individual responsibility. But not everyone wanted to abide by this axiom. Equal rights also needs to be accompanied by an equal social responsibility. But again, not everyone wanted to abide by that axiom. And so selfishness began to run amok in a way that had not been so openly acceptable in the past. And we have not been willing to face that in ourselves and correct it.

And it's been getting worse and worse for the last 50 years (and especially so since the 1980s). The nation is about to self-destruct under the weight of it all, and still, all we seem to be able to do is blame someone else for it. We're still not willing to look within ourselves, and see how we are participating in it. And so become willing to change.

The prosperity that brought us the ability to become idealists in the 1960s has been squandered by our inability to clarify and live up to our own ideals. And much of the progress we'd made then, is now being lost.

This is why I despair.
 

PureX

Well-known member
There is a certain bleakness to your posts at times. Yet your sensitivity also shines through and it is that quality which makes your posts worth reading to me! I love that we may disagree and get chin to chin yet come away still friends!
I happen to like you!
For me, ideas are just ideas. But people are people. I have lots of friends that I don't agree with ideologically. But I love them as people. And I assume they must love me some, or they wouldn't keep coming around. Our spirits matter more than our thoughts. Just as our actions matter more than our words.

And anyway, I know I can always be wrong. I'm not, usually. But I always can be. ;)
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Baloney! I only go by what YOU post on TOL. You are usually negative. That is a fact. And many times you have stated you were once a drunk. Should I start a poll to see how many people think you are negative?


What an uncalled for and unnecessary personal attack. The person that comes off looking negative is you.

PureX, as I've interacted with him over the years here, isn't at all negative. He's cheerful, enjoys the beauty he encounters in life, and enjoys exchanging ideas while putting up with a lot of crap from a few protected posters here without complaint. He may have some views which are pessimistic but he as a person is just the opposite. Far better would it have been for you to go after the content and not the man.
 

bybee

New member
What an uncalled for and unnecessary personal attack. The person that comes off looking negative is you.

PureX, as I've interacted with him over the years here, isn't at all negative. He's cheerful, enjoys the beauty he encounters in life, and enjoys exchanging ideas while putting up with a lot of crap from a few protected posters here without complaint. He may have some views which are pessimistic but he as a person is just the opposite. Far better would it have been for you to go after the content and not the man.

Agreed!
 

The Berean

Well-known member
I gotta say, this is really uncalled for and pretty much a cheap shot all around. How's the view from your horse?

Cheap shot at what, Granite? Mr. PureX is soundly negative. Do you deny that? That is well known here at TOL. I simply mentioned his drinking becasue HE has mentioned it many, many times. I've seen first hand what alcoholism can do to a person and those around him/her. i have an uncle (my mother's brother) who was heavy drinker for decades. He would get so drunk he's come around and sometimes threaten poor family. My dad finally got tired of it and called the cops. My uncle almost killed someone while driving drunk.

Anyway, I am calling out PureX for his continuing negatvie attitude. He continuely whines about everything in American society yet rarely if ever offers any solutions.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Cheap shot at what, Granite? Mr. PureX is soundly negative. Do you deny that? That is well known here at TOL. I simply mentioned his drinking becasue HE has mentioned it many, many times. I've seen first hand what alcoholism can do to a person and those around him/her. i have an uncle (my mother's brother) who was heavy drinker for decades. He would get so drunk he's come around and sometimes threaten poor family. My dad finally got tired of it and called the cops. My uncle almost killed someone while driving drunk.

Anyway, I am calling out PureX for his continuing negatvie attitude. He continuely whines about everything in American society yet rarely if ever offers any solutions.

A cheap shot at a good guy, you snotty little prig. And if PureX has a drinking problem, that's his issue to mention and discuss, not a stone you can scoop out to throw back in his face. (And TOLers marvel, occasionally, at why a few folks are reluctant to ever disclose anything remotely personal or revealing here. It's because of people like you.)

PureX's own observations, lamentations, and solutions may not be to your liking but to start wagging your finger and sit in some kind of judgment is offensive, presumptuous, and way out of line. You "simply" decided to go after the man, and how you did it was uncalled for. He spoke eloquently and movingly about a state of affairs he despaired. You brought up his own cross to bear as though scoring points or trying to hurt him. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
A cheap shot at a good guy, you snotty little prig. And if PureX has a drinking problem, that's his issue to mention and discuss, not a stone you can scoop out to throw back in his face. (And TOLers marvel, occasionally, at why a few folks are reluctant to ever disclose anything remotely personal or revealing here. It's because of people like you.)

PureX's own observations, lamentations, and solutions may not be to your liking but to start wagging your finger and sit in some kind of judgment is offensive, presumptuous, and way out of line. You "simply" decided to go after the man, and how you did it was uncalled for. He spoke eloquently and movingly about a state of affairs he despaired. You brought up his own cross to bear as though scoring points or trying to hurt him. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Fine. I had a posted a long winded retort. But I will take a step back... I meant no insult to PureX. I certaily wasn't making fun of his drinking as I have seen personally how devastating it can be.

I will drop this and apologize to PureX.

Mr. PureX,

I was not trying to put you down personally. I sometimes just get torqued over perceived continued negativity plus I was not having a good day yesterday. But that is my issue not yours. And I humbly apologize for my previous comments if they caused you any personal harm.
 
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PureX

Well-known member
Mr. PureX,

I was not trying to put you down personally. I sometimes just get torqued over perceived continued negativity plus I was not having a good yesterday. But that is my issue not yours. And I humbly apologize for my previous comments if they caused you any personal harm.
Happily accepted. Please know that it's already forgotten, and I'm happy to chat with you any time, here.

I also sometimes let myself get hung up on a persona that I project upon the text of other posters here even though I'm trying not to. Digital text is a limited way of communicating and it's very easy to misread it or read into it, or in my case confuse posts from different posters. And you are right, I do tend to post in the negative, but I do believe that's mostly because I don't view the world through the same right-wing religious lens that pervades this site. So my perspective is going to be perceived 'negatively' relative to most of the other folks who participate, here. You don't strike me as being extreme, but you do strike me as being fairly conservative, from your comments. So I suppose I will naturally appear antagonistic to that stance. And in fact, I am fairly antagonistic of it. I'm a liberal socialist, after all, and am proud of it. ;)

Anyway, don't sweat it, brother. And I hope you're having a good day, today.
 
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