If Evolution

[daqq]

Yes words can have more than one meaning, thus a day doesn't always mean 24 hours. If it was 24 a hour period in Genesis, then each day would have been the morning to the morning, not the evening to the morning which is a whole lot less hours than 24 hours!

A day is never twenty-four hours in the scripture. The Master plainly says that there are twelve hours in a day, (and he speaks moreover with the authority of what is written in Numbers 7). A twenty-four hour day is Roman calendar timekeeping, which includes the night, which is darkness. To force a twenty-four hour day into the Hebrew scriptures and writings is to force Greco-Roman thinking into and onto the scripture while denying what the Master says in Jhn11:9-10. Moreover Paul boldly states that the first man Adam is the one formed in Gen2:7, earthy, dust-like, who became a living soul, (1Cor15:45-47, and the second man is from the heavens, 1Cor15:47, Gen1:26-28, Psa8:3-8), while Psalm 8 expounds that the Son of Man, (the second man from the heavens according to Paul), is the one given dominion in Gen1:26-28. Therefore, according to Paul, the order of creation in the first two chapters of Genesis is not even given in chronological order: and that is no doubt because the first chapter is prophecy, and is fulfilled at Golgotha, for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Mat11:13), and the Master himself also says "My Father is/has been working until right now, and I work/have been working", and when he said that he said it concerning the Shabbat, showing that the true Shabbat was not yet even fulfilled when he said it, (Jhn5:17). All one needs to do is believe what Paul says in 1Cor15 and all of this argument/debate goes by the wayside.

 

[ThisIsMyUserName]

Again You seem to equivocate...Or, perhaps not understand the difference between empirical science / evidence and your common ancestry beliefs. Both of us observe the same comets... same mutation rates...same gravitational fields... same distant galaxies....same fossils... Etc.

Then pls do explain.

If we observe the same evidence and use the same methodology, how come we don't reach the same conclusions?

 

[ThisIsMyUserName]

:darwinsm:

You have no problem with the possibility that a god directed evolution?

:mock: Darwinists

Yet again, it eludes me why you seem to have a problem understanding this position.

Are you saying God couldn't direct evolution ????

 

[JudgeRightly]

Then pls do explain.

If we observe the same evidence and use the same methodology, how come we don't reach the same conclusions?

Because we have different worldviews.

 

[ThisIsMyUserName]

Because we have different worldviews.

Not enough.

If the method is the same, there shouldn't be any difference.



Evolution is accepted by both Christians and atheists alike (also by any other faiths).
It's the creationists that have some issue with it, and so far, I can't figure out exactly what it is ....

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot]Epoch of time.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

God said:

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis 2:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

After Adam ate the fruit, he continued to live for nearly a thousand years, until he finally died. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 90:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For a thousand years in your sight are like a day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hosea 6:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After two days he will revive us[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; upon the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]With the Lord a day is like a thousand years,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and a thousand years are like a day. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Psalm 90:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hosea 6:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The resurrection of the elect is after two thousand years, and the third day is the end of the thousand years, and it is the resurrection of the sheep and goats.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


Matthew 24
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets (Like Mohammad) will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Matthew 25:32[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Revelation 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are warned by the Rambam, amongst other Sages, that the story of Genesis and Creation is not to be taken literally. We are further reminded constantly that God is a spirit and does not have a body, like humans. So, when the term 'in His own image' is used, we know that it does not mean a physical body. Therefore it must mean some other quality that God might impart to humans. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

For certain there is a parabolic element to the story, but as you know parables are mixed with the literal. This means that a spirit of discernment is required. As for spirits, it is a fact that they also have a soul; both body and spirit. Only it is not like our flesh and blood bodies. Yahwah is a Holy Spirit, and He is the God of spirits.
A person can not see a spirit, but a person can see a soul. And because those in the kingdom of God have a soul, that is how we will be able to recognize each other.

The creation days are epochs of time, and the age of the Earth is not accounted for.
It is not until the creation of Adam on the sixth day that the calendar begins. The fact that life forms have a limited adaptability according to their design is no proof of Evolution.

What real proof is there of one species departing from its basic form? Artist drawings do not count as scientific fact.
If Evolution was true, then why have the oldest prehistoric life forms alive today not evolved?
In the rock strata of fossils, it shows that while one group suddenly went extinct, others suddenly sprang into being.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[6days]

Not enough.

If the method is the same, there shouldn't be any difference.



Evolution is accepted by both Christians and atheists alike (also by any other faiths).
It's the creationists that have some issue with it, and so far, I can't figure out exactly what it is ....

Common ancestry beliefs contradict God's word and science. Evolutionist start with the conclusion and try and make the evidence fit. That is why they keep getting it wrong on things like junk DNA, pseudogenes, neanderthals, Lucy, useless appendix, poorly designed vertebrate eye argument, genetics etc etc.

 

[6days]

It doesn't say that Eve was the mother of all, but rather the mother of all living!

Ok Let's just use the whole verse from the NWT

"After this Adam named his wife Eve, because she was to become the mother of everyone living." I am a descendant of Eve...we ALL are.

And why does the word day have two different meanings in Genesis?

YOM /DAY has multiple meanings. Many, many many words have multiple meanings. How do we ever understand which definition to use.... CONTEXT.

Why does each of the 7 days mean a 24 hour period, yet in Genesis 2:4 when in the day that God created the generations of the heavens and earth that then means a period of time and not 24 hours?

CONTEXT! Its easy!

Marhig... me thinks you are being obtuse. English and Hebrew have a variety of definitions...used similarily in both languages... and the meaning is always determined by the CONTEXT.

EX. In My Father's Day it took 4 days to fill a boat with fish if they fished only during the day. Ok... the word day is using three times in one sentence with three different meanings. Are you able to understand the sentence? Yes!

Now let's take the passage you mention from scripture where it uses the word "day" with two different meanings and let's see if you can determine the meaning of each.... Gen. 2:3,4 NWT "And God went on to bless the seventh day and to declare it sacred... This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."

God said let there be light, and God created in the light which is in his time, and it was in the day that the Lord God created them, which is a period of time.

Gen. 1:3-5 And God said: “Let there be light.” Then there was light. After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day."

Each of the 6 days God created, then he rested. These are not 24 hour periods and nowhere in the Bible does it say they were.

The NWT says "And there was evening and there was morning, a first day."

Marhig... you are not consistent with scripture. In Hebrew, and in the OT, every time a number is associated with the word day it always refers to what we call a 24-hour day. Why do you take a different approach to scripture in Genesis one?

God's ways are not our ways, and God's time is not our time.

Sure... When God takes me home is His timing, not mine. That doesn't mean we can ignore what He tells us about about creation, and try insert secular ideas.

You can see that a Jewish child is naturally circumcised on the eighth day? Can you see what this means Spiritually?

So... if I understand your logic, the Jews didn't understand scripture because they did physical circumcision on a literal 8th DAY? A whole LOT of pain could have been prevented in Joshua 5 had they known it was just spiritual circumsicion.

When we enter into God's rest, do we enter into it for a 24 hour period?

That's more than a little off topic... and it's a topic I discussed with you previously.

Do you take all of Genesis as literal? Don't you believe that there is a Spiritual meaning to it too?

Of course there is spiritual meaning... But, if the history is not literally true, then why did Jesus have to physically die? The Gospel... and every Christian doctrine is dependent on the history in Genesis.

THe problem, or rather the biggest problem, of old earth beliefs, and believing in pre-adamites is it contradicts the Gospel. Rom.5:12 NWT "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.

 

[6days]

The creation days are epochs of time

The Hebrew context prevents anything other than a period of day and night. Paul in scripture argued against the old earthers of his day (Epicureans). And, Jesus also rejected epochs of time. He referred to humanity "from the beginning" of creation and the "foundations of the world".

 

[daqq]

Epoch of time.

God said:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

After Adam ate the fruit, he continued to live for nearly a thousand years, until he finally died.


Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
Hosea 6:2
After two days he will revive us; upon the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.
2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Hosea 6:2
After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

The resurrection of the elect is after two thousand years, and the third day is the end of the thousand years, and it is the resurrection of the sheep and goats.


Matthew 24
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets (Like Mohammad) will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 25:32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Revelation 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years


We are warned by the Rambam, amongst other Sages, that the story of Genesis and Creation is not to be taken literally. We are further reminded constantly that God is a spirit and does not have a body, like humans. So, when the term 'in His own image' is used, we know that it does not mean a physical body. Therefore it must mean some other quality that God might impart to humans.

For certain there is a parabolic element to the story, but as you know parables are mixed with the literal. This means that a spirit of discernment is required. As for spirits, it is a fact that they also have a soul; both body and spirit. Only it is not like our flesh and blood bodies. Yahwah is a Holy Spirit, and He is the God of spirits.
A person can not see a spirit, but a person can see a soul. And because those in the kingdom of God have a soul, that is how we will be able to recognize each other.

The creation days are epochs of time, and the age of the Earth is not accounted for.
It is not until the creation of Adam on the sixth day that the calendar begins. The fact that life forms have a limited adaptability according to their design is no proof of Evolution.

What real proof is there of one species departing from its basic form? Artist drawings do not count as scientific fact.
If Evolution was true, then why have the oldest prehistoric life forms alive today not evolved?
In the rock strata of fossils, it shows that while one group suddenly went extinct, others suddenly sprang into being.

The creation days of Genesis 1 can be both and are both, that is, both epochs of a thousand years and yamim-hours, (yamim is one of the plural forms of yom). The yom-hour is expounded in Numbers 7, (there are twelve yamim-hours in the single yom-day wherein the altar was anointed), and the yamim-hours of the Genesis 1 account are thus six yamim-hours of spoken-Word creation wherein there is no darkness, which six great days or epochs of a thousand years each then unfold over the six thousand years of the chronology found in the Septuagint unto the advent of Messiah, (as also expounded in the Epistle of Barnabas). The six yom-hours of spoken-Word creation are then literally fulfilled at Golgotha in Messiah, (and the seventh day is the great-high Shabbat wherein he rested, one day, not "three days and three nights", as that statement is wholly misunderstood by most).

 

[way 2 go]

Yes words can have more than one meaning, thus a day doesn't always mean 24 hours. If it was 24 a hour period in Genesis, then each day would have been the morning to the morning, not the evening to the morning which is a whole lot less hours than 24 hours!

1 rotation of the earth = 1 day

day and night or night and day are interchangeable.

 

[CherubRam]

Daqq. :nono: Nope!

 

[daqq]

Daqq. :nono: Nope!

Lol, which is precisely why I do not spend much time in your threads.

 

[Stuu]

Both of us observe the same comets... same mutation rates...same gravitational fields... same distant galaxies....same fossils... Etc.

But creationists only think of one of those things at a time when trash talking tales of goddiddit; real scientists keep all of those things in mind concurrently when inferring conclusions.

Stuart

 

[marhig]

A day is never twenty-four hours in the scripture. The Master plainly says that there are twelve hours in a day, (and he speaks moreover with the authority of what is written in Numbers 7). A twenty-four hour day is Roman calendar timekeeping, which includes the night, which is darkness. To force a twenty-four hour day into the Hebrew scriptures and writings is to force Greco-Roman thinking into and onto the scripture while denying what the Master says in Jhn11:9-10. Moreover Paul boldly states that the first man Adam is the one formed in Gen2:7, earthy, dust-like, who became a living soul, (1Cor15:45-47, and the second man is from the heavens, 1Cor15:47, Gen1:26-28, Psa8:3-8), while Psalm 8 expounds that the Son of Man, (the second man from the heavens according to Paul), is the one given dominion in Gen1:26-28. Therefore, according to Paul, the order of creation in the first two chapters of Genesis is not even given in chronological order: and that is no doubt because the first chapter is prophecy, and is fulfilled at Golgotha, for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Mat11:13), and the Master himself also says "My Father is/has been working until right now, and I work/have been working", and when he said that he said it concerning the Shabbat, showing that the true Shabbat was not yet even fulfilled when he said it, (Jhn5:17). All one needs to do is believe what Paul says in 1Cor15 and all of this argument/debate goes by the wayside.

Hi daqq,

I was reading the other night, where Jesus said "are there not 12 hours in a day" and I thought then that Jesus is only including daytime hours where there is light and I also thought then that even Jesus didn't refer naturally to a 24 hour day. But rather the hours wherein there is light. Thanks for explaining the Roman calender, I didn't know that, but I know that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all, and I know that he doesn't bring life through darkness only light, and he brings us from darkness into light thus we have the evening and the morning in each day in creation to bring the works of God to be made manifest in the morning which is the first light. We are the darkness that God works through, we were in darkness before we knew him. And just as the moon being a dead planet only reflects the light of the sun, to bring light onto the earth whilst it is in darkness, so is it with God's people, they are in darkness until God brings them to life through Christ and the light is then reflected through them, through the son, to bring light to those in darkness in the earth.

God forms and works in us as we were hear the word through those who are born of him, they are like lamp posts bringing light on a dark night to guide us and teach the way of Christ, a bit of light whilst we are in the darkness, then once we obey the teachings and start live by the will of God, in God's time we are blessed with the Spirit, and this is the beginning for us when Christ enters into our hearts, he is our first light. Then we start to be changed, becoming a new man through Christ, through progressive revelation, progressive light and God changes our hearts to be more like his son through faith by the grace of God.

I know the scriptures speak of the natural, but many don't seem to see the spiritual. And I know that God's ways and times aren't our ways and times. But it's simple, the old testament puts to death, and the New testament brings life after death through Christ Jesus he is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through him.

 

[Stuu]

Genesis 3:5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

After Adam ate the fruit, he continued to live for nearly a thousand years, until he finally died.

So much for Genesis 2:17 then.

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

So did Adam live for like, nearly a day, or like, nearly 365,000,000 years?

Stuart

 

[marhig]

Ok Let's just use the whole verse from the NWT

"After this Adam named his wife Eve, because she was to become the mother of everyone living." I am a descendant of Eve...we ALL are.

YOM /DAY has multiple meanings. Many, many many words have multiple meanings. How do we ever understand which definition to use.... CONTEXT.

CONTEXT! Its easy!

Marhig... me thinks you are being obtuse. English and Hebrew have a variety of definitions...used similarily in both languages... and the meaning is always determined by the CONTEXT.

EX. In My Father's Day it took 4 days to fill a boat with fish if they fished only during the day. Ok... the word day is using three times in one sentence with three different meanings. Are you able to understand the sentence? Yes!

Now let's take the passage you mention from scripture where it uses the word "day" with two different meanings and let's see if you can determine the meaning of each.... Gen. 2:3,4 NWT "And God went on to bless the seventh day and to declare it sacred... This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."

Gen. 1:3-5 And God said: “Let there be light.” Then there was light. After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day."

The NWT says "And there was evening and there was morning, a first day."

Marhig... you are not consistent with scripture. In Hebrew, and in the OT, every time a number is associated with the word day it always refers to what we call a 24-hour day. Why do you take a different approach to scripture in Genesis one?

Sure... When God takes me home is His timing, not mine. That doesn't mean we can ignore what He tells us about about creation, and try insert secular ideas.

So... if I understand your logic, the Jews didn't understand scripture because they did physical circumcision on a literal 8th DAY? A whole LOT of pain could have been prevented in Joshua 5 had they known it was just spiritual circumsicion.

That's more than a little off topic... and it's a topic I discussed with you previously.

Of course there is spiritual meaning... But, if the history is not literally true, then why did Jesus have to physically die? The Gospel... and every Christian doctrine is dependent on the history in Genesis.

THe problem, or rather the biggest problem, of old earth beliefs, and believing in pre-adamites is it contradicts the Gospel. Rom.5:12 NWT "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.

Can you not see? God is dividing the darkness from the light during the day. Spiritually God divides and separates the darkness from the light within our hearts as we walk in the light of the day with him, he is then teaching and guiding us away from darkness and keeping us in his light through Christ by the Spirit.

There is a natural and there is a Spiritual. You seem to only take the Bible literally, it is a spiritual book, written by men who walk in the Spirit inspired of God.

When have you ever seen a natural tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Where does that grow in the world?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not enough.

If the method is the same, there shouldn't be any difference.



Evolution is accepted by both Christians and atheists alike (also by any other faiths).

It's accepted by Christians who reject the very foundation of the Bible, Genesis.

It's the creationists that have some issue with it, and so far, I can't figure out exactly what it is ....

Because it goes against what God said in the Bible, that God made man at the beginning of creation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Can you not see? God is dividing the darkness from the light during the day. Spiritually God divides and separates the darkness from the light within our hearts as we walk in the light of the day with him, he is then teaching and guiding us away from darkness and keeping us in his light through Christ by the Spirit.

There is a natural and there is a Spiritual. You seem to only take the Bible literally, it is a spiritual book, written by men who walk in the Spirit inspired of God.

When have you ever seen a natural tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Where does that grow in the world?

Hey Marhig, do me a favor and go read Ezekiel 31.

Here's a little secret: Ez. 31 tells us what happened to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

[marhig]

Hey Marhig, do me a favor and go read Ezekiel 31.

Here's a little secret: Ez. 31 tells us what happened to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

So you can see that the Bible isn't all literal then?