do you know what this looks like?
ECT ICON OF THE VIRGIN MARY FROM THE EARLY CHURCH PERIOD
- Thread starter Cruciform
- Start date
do you know what this looks like?
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
Even the most basic reading of the epistles would suggest that was the case whilst the apostles were still teaching them.
There is biblical record that the early church was a mess in terms of theology and praxis.
There is biblical record that the early church was a mess in terms of theology and praxis.
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
Hmm so the fresco was found with many others showing biblical themes.
So do you claim that all the characters so depicted in these scenes were venerated by the early church?
what you have is a picture of someone who was probably Mary, it shows nothing in the way of veneration.
So do you claim that all the characters so depicted in these scenes were venerated by the early church?
what you have is a picture of someone who was probably Mary, it shows nothing in the way of veneration.
Yes.
When a teenager shakes herself in a frenzy at a pop concert, she is worshipping the pop artist. When you go into a church and the pulpit gets raised mechanically from the floor and the preacher comes up and the people stand on their feet, you know that the whole thing - the architecture, the customs are intended to promote acts of worship towards the preacher and the spoken sermon. Any stranger walking in for the first time will not fail to perceive this. And when a person declares 'The Bible is the 100% inerrant Word of God', he is worshipping the Bible. Let those protestants who think they are free from the so-called idolatries of Catholicism, be clear about this. For many of you, your practices amount to worship just as much. All that is different are the practices themselves. I am not singling out Catholics.
But when you kneel down in front of an icon of Mary, you are worshipping. Either the icon or Mary herself. Your denials of the obvious, including inventing new words for it, such as 'veneration' or 'respect' show that you do not have the courage of your own convictions. It shows that you have a guilty conscience that you are unwilling to admit what it is you are actually doing.
Catholics spend a lot of time worshipping Mary, the saints, their priests, bishops and the Pope. The question is, do you worship God? Because God is not worshipped by a genuflection or a dipping of the hand in holy water and making the sign of the cross on you. He is worshipped by obedience to his teachings and commitment to the lifestyle Jesus taught - an acceptance of Jesus as your one and only Lord. God is worshipped because of the truth he stands for. Mary, Joseph and the saints can only be worshipped ritually - because they have no message of their own, no truth of their own. You can't go out and live as Mary taught or as Joseph taught because they taught nothing. You worship many things and many people but do you worship God? Do you spend so much time worshipping other people and things that you have no time for God? Is your worship of these things a diversion to avoid having to actually worship God himself, which requires a radically different way of thinking? Is it an excuse for you: 'I perform all these acts of worship because they are my way of worshipping of God' even though you know that this is not how to worship God?
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The RCC not only perverted the Ten Commandments to allow for their hundreds of idols, they also eliminated "but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" to establish the weekly Sunday observance of the pagan god Mithra. (readers would be well served to do a study of the Mithra religion)
For proof all one has to do is compare translations of the TC's.
A "sacred" image? What happened to "Thou shalt not make unto thee and graven image, or likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself before them..." (also missing from you TC's) And any one with eyes have seen people bowing before a idol of Mary.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
How about the bolded parts?
Exodus 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
"We don't worship idols" Evidently you don't keep the "Thou shall not bear false witness" commandment either.
St Peter Enthroned
St Peters statue (idol) the toes and foot are not only shiny but have been worn down by centuries of touching and kissing them while offering up prayer for a blessing from St Peter. (not only Idolatry but very unsanitary)
thank you for the opportunity to say
we don't lie about not worshiping idols
why don't you believe us?
I was sure you were going to say that. But you haven't answered the question. You (or Cruciform) claimed that you don't worship Mary.
Can you now confirm then that in fact, as I pointed out, you do?
Thank you.
LoneStar
New member
Could be. Or it could be of another family. I don't find anything definite to determine what family it is.
Cruciform
New member
It doesn't matter, since Catholics do neither.
Cruciform
New member
Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Cruciform
New member
It both reveals and represents the truth.
Apparently, you've been taught that the term "word" in Scripture always means "the Bible," but this is simply not the case. In fact, "word" rarely means "Bible"---much less "the Bible alone." Generally speaking, God's "word" in the Bible refers to God's "message," in whatever form (spoken, written, etc.) in which it is communicated. Sorry for your confusion.
Once again, your chosen man-made doctrinal tradition has simply misinformed you on this point. For example, see this.
As a non-Christian, you deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, so of course you're going to reject Mary as Theotokos ("God-bearer") as well. No surprise there, since one heresy---e.g., denying the Incarnation---tends to lead to others.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Cruciform
New member
You ascribe worth to your mother. Why, then, are you worshiping your mother? (See how that works?)
Cruciform
New member
On occasion and in certain locations, certainly. And who was it who possessed the God-given doctrinal authority to correct and discipline such false teachers? It was the ordained leaders of the Church, the apostles and bishops (the apostles' ordained successors). So it is with Christ's one historic Catholic Church in our own day.
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
History seems to give a choice...
Follow what they taught
Follow what the people who claim to succeed them taught
When the two differ i go with the former
Follow what they taught
Follow what the people who claim to succeed them taught
When the two differ i go with the former