ECT How is Paul's message different?

[Clete]

Jesus was asked by the rich young ruler how to be saved and Jesus answered him by telling him to follow the Law and when asked which laws, Jesus started listing off the Ten Commandments. No Christian I know would conceivably answer the same question that way today.

For those who don't believe what I said here...

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”​

No twisting, no interpreting, no commentary just reading!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Cross Reference]

For those who don't believe what I said here...

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”​

No twisting, no interpreting, no commentary just reading!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[In Yellow] That is Not the question that was asked of Jesus.

Even Nicodemus didn't ask that question!! Salvation was not even topic of discussion when Jesus was on Earth.

 

[andyc]

If you wish to ignore the thread, why participate in it?

I'm not going to recreate the thread between you and I when its all right there for you to read.

Read it, found an error, blew the whistle. Nothing more.
I'm quite happy to exit the thread for you to discuss everything else in the OP.

 

[Clete]

Read it, found an error, blew the whistle. Nothing more.
I'm quite happy to exit the thread for you to discuss everything else in the OP.

Your supposed error has been addressed already, which I alluded to when you first brought it up.

 

[achduke]

For those who don't believe what I said here...

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”​

No twisting, no interpreting, no commentary just reading!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Do you believe someone that commits all these sins and is not repentant is currently in a saved state?

 

[Clete]

How is it possible to be saved apart from grace?
There is no salvation outside of grace. By the law shall no flesh be justified.

Acts 4:12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’

Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

It's nothing but grace and faith for Jews and gentiles. The only one gospel.

Asked and answered.

Paul was chosen to be an apostle to the gentiles. Why he was chosen and called is with God's own mind and will, it's not for us to presuppose anything.

I haven't presupposed anything. The reason he was called is very clearly explained through the book of Acts as well as in his own writings.

This nothing at all more than what the topic OF THIS WHOLE THREAD has been about.

Paul was forgiven as a blasphemer, and therefore had a perfect revelation of just how far the grace of God would extend. Even lying, murdering, adulterous, fornicating, idolatrous gentiles.
If God's grace could extend to Paul, it could reach anyone. And so Paul's ministry was to present the the need for a messiah, and then present the messiah himself.

No more perfect than the Twelve which had been given a very specific commission from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That is, unless something had changed, which of course it had, which, once again, has been the subject of this entire thread. You simply restating the opposing position does not constitute a refutation or even a valid response to the arguments that have already been presented.

The gospel to the Jews was simply about how Israel had missed the the opportunity to embrace the messiah, and repent individually for rejecting him.

WHAT?

Chapter and verse please!

What did you do, just pop this off the top of your head?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Do you believe someone that commits all these sins and is not repentant is currently in a saved state?

I believe strongly that following the law or not has exactly zero to do with whether you're saved.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

To anyone who the above verses apply, the direct answer to your question is an emphatic, unqualified and unapologetic "YES!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Cross Reference]

I believe strongly that following the law or not has exactly zero to do with whether you're saved.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

To anyone who the above verses apply, the direct answer to your question is an emphatic, unqualified and unapologetic "YES!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yes but, you only presume to know what it all means.

 

[Clete]

Yes but, you only presume to know what it all means.

So says you. I dare you to make an actual argument.

 

[andyc]

Asked and answered.


I haven't presupposed anything. The reason he was called is very clearly explained through the book of Acts as well as in his own writings.

Sure, he tells us.

So that he can be seen as an example of God's grace, which would benefit his preaching to the gentiles. And that the Jews would also understand how far God's grace extends.

As I said, idolaters, adulterers, murderers, liars etc, are all accepted with God if they repent and accept Christ.

This nothing at all more than what the topic OF THIS WHOLE THREAD has been about.

Ok.

No more perfect than the Twelve which had been given a very specific commission from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That is, unless something had changed, which of course it had, which, once again, has been the subject of this entire thread. You simply restating the opposing position does not constitute a refutation or even a valid response to the arguments that have already been presented.

That's fine if you don't see it. Others will.

WHAT?

Chapter and verse please!

What did you do, just pop this off the top of your head?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Sure

Acts 3:13-19

Acts 13:26-41

 

[patrick jane]

Sure, he tells us.

So that he can be seen as an example of God's grace, which would benefit his preaching to the gentiles. And that the Jews would also understand how far God's grace extends.

As I said, idolaters, adulterers, murderers, liars etc, are all excepted with God if they repent and accept Christ.
Ok. That's fine if you don't see it. Others will.
Sure

Acts 3:13-19

Acts 13:26-41

I see that Clete is right

 

[andyc]

What is the Gospel of Grace other than the mechanics of being saved?

Most people may or not know how a car moves when they press the gas pedal. Do they need to know there is an engine running using fire/explosion to move a piston that moves a drive train to move the wheel in order for the car to move? They know by faith that if they press the gas pedal and the car is in Drive it will move.

We are saved by Grace. Many authors of the bible have mentioned that. Is not the mechanics of Grace through the Lord the same in anyway?

Yes that is whats completely obvious to most Christians.
Grace is unmerited favor. Works is merited reward.
Mad has come up with gospel of unmerited favor plus merited reward.
Paul goes out of his way to explain that if it is by grace, it cannot be works, and if its works, it cannot be grace. So what does mad do?
Comes up with a works plus grace gospel, which contradicts Paul flat out.

 

[Clete]

Okay, that's it!

I'm fed up to my gills with people who don't want to have a discussion but are here to simply spout their personal opinions and who feel too put out to explain themselves when I can't read their minds.

If you don't want to make a clear argument then why the crap are you even here? This is only a fun pass time if you aren't a hack! Go find something worthwhile to do! Go ride a bike or fly a kite or something that requires less time and mental effort.

I will ignore any other posts that look or feel anything like either andyc's or Cross Refferences' posts. You can waste your own time, I'm finished with wasting mine.

:Clete:

 

[andyc]

I see that Clete is right

Shoulda gone to specsavers.

 

[andyc]

I'm finished with wasting mine.

You're not. This thread is proof of that, but I'll leave you alone.

 

[Dialogos]

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
That idea is exclusive to Paul!

Not according to Paul.
“(Romans 4:1-3 ESV) What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Is water baptism required for salvation?

The problem is in the way one asks the question. Can someone be saved who is not yet baptized?
Yes.
Should a person who refuses baptism question their salvation?
Yes.

If you say, "Yes", you'll cite the New Testament books NOT written by Paul, including the Gospels.

Or you’ll cite the examples where Paul baptizes those who believe…

:think:

If you say, "No", you'll cite nothing at all but the books written by Paul.

Or you will cite the thief on the cross, in the gospel of Luke.

 

[Clete]

Not according to Paul.
“(Romans 4:1-3 ESV) What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Yes, according to Paul.

This sort of stupidity really gets me angry. All you are capable of is superficial games. You're either stupid or you assume that I am. As though I'm incapable of noticing the verses immediately preceding the verse I cited. This is not an issue about proof texts, which has a great deal to do with the fact that I rarely cite individual proof texts except where the context of the conversation helps to mitigate the sort of mindless response exemplified in your post.

If you had been the least bit intellectually honest you'd have simply ask a question related to verses 1-3. But you, as with most all those who disagree with anything I say around here, aren't interested in understanding anything. You're interested in preaching to those who already disagree with me anyway. For the life of me, I can't figure out what sort of person finds it worth his while to spend the time it takes to post such mindlessness. Get a life or put me on your ignore list and stop wasting my time!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No more perfect than the Twelve which had been given a very specific commission from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That is, unless something had changed, which of course it had, which, once again, has been the subject of this entire thread.
Clete

The gospel of Christ never changed.

The account in scripture of the gospel as it happened and for whom it was, never changed.---

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




and it was preached to the nations from the beginning after the Holy Spirit was sent from Heaven to empower it.(not without the person of Christ)

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

When--"after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you"

No interruptions to the program.

MAD is avoiding the Holy Spirit because the cost is too high for them and they love themselves just too much to give themselves to Christ fully.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.




LA

 

[Clete]

The gospel of Christ never changed.

The account in scripture of the gospel as it happened and for whom it was, never changed.---

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




and it was preached to the nations from the beginning after the Holy Spirit was sent from Heaven to empower it.(not without the person of Christ)

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

When--"after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you"

No interruptions to the program.

MAD is avoiding the Holy Spirit because the cost is too high for them and they love themselves just too much to give themselves to Christ fully.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.




LA

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I'm not willing to re-argue the whole thread for you any more than was for andyc.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I'm not willing to re-argue the whole thread for you any more than was for andyc.

You have no answers to negate the truth clearly spoken.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

These were from the gentiles (nations)---

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

They left Jerusalem and went back home with the Holy Spirit .

What would you do if it happened to you?

LA