ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
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". . . . . what He did at the Cross of Calvary?"
I would like read all that yu suppose was accomplished by Jesus going to the cross, dazed?
I would like read all that yu suppose was accomplished by Jesus going to the cross, dazed?
Cross Reference
New member
Dear Life, Consider Paul suffered from past offenses and given only 1 way to overcome Satan's temptations/accusations, I.E., "by the washing with [Spiritual] 'water' by the word," Ephesians 5:26 (KJV). The only "word" Paul had with regards to this was the "Living Word" which he used when resisting the Devil's pull on his life. This being the result of his understanding of the kingdom of God teaching by Jesus.. I believe this was Paul's "thorn in the flesh".
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Hi and you never answered 2 Cor 12:7 and 2 Cor 12:1 is saying , that the Greek word I WILL COME is in the FUTURE TENSE and that means Paul came to many VISIONS till Paul was killed in 2 Tim 4;6 !!
dan p
I spent about an hour rereading a lot of the first several pages of this thread. Man oh man did this thread start out great!
You know, this website is really cool. I really get a kick out of rereading things that I wrote years ago. Much of it I don't hardly even remember writing!
I had just a terrific discussion with Turbosixx that culminated with post 460 which is all about sin and guilt and how it related to the Christian in the Dispensation of Grace...
This is just an absolutely terrific question! It really goes straight to the heart of the real practical difference between A9D and basically every other doctrinal system.
Some people really make a huge issue out of the word "sin" and develop detailed doctrinal constructs around the meaning of that one word. I'm reminded of a guy who used to post here on TOL whose user name was Sozo. He's a really smart guy and wrote some of the most terrific posts about grace but holy crap was he caught up on the word "sin". He just flatly insisted that it was not possible for a Christian to sin and based STRICTLY on his very tight definition of the word, he was right. The problem he had though is that he was nearly the only person in the world that used the word 'sin' in such way.
I make no effort to do such things. In fact, if anything, I attempt to use terms in the most common understanding possible so as to avoid the sort of confusion that Sozo was constantly fighting while he was here.
So, having said that, let me answer your question this way. If by 'sin' you mean committing an act that you know you shouldn't then the answer is an unqualified, "Yes, of course!". Christians do thing that hurt themselves and those around them, things that God does not like and does not want them to do.
BUT! He does not hold those sins against us because He has already held it against His Son who died in our place, receiving the just punishment for our sin.
Put another way, the wages of sin are death (note that this was so WAY before the Law of Moses - it goes all the way back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it is no mere coincidence by the way that both that Tree and the Law have a ministry of death.) and we are identified in Christ's death. What hold then does sin have over us? This is precisely the theme of the whole of Romans 6 and 7.
So, do Christians do things they shouldn't (a.k.a. sin)? Sure they do. Christians aren't perfect, they're forgiven, as they say. But there is a perspective from which this is not so. That is to say, it is not inaccurate to say that we are perfect - IN HIM! This was a major point Zozo would make all the time and it is a point that is quite correct. It is only in our flesh that sin exists and we are to reckon ourselves to have been crucified with Christ. This reckoning is the key to the Christian life.
One of the most critical things that a Christian must learn is that he cannot live the Christian life. It is Christ who lives His life through us by faith. It cannot be done through the flesh. And this is really critical - The law, any law, has to do with the flesh. It is a rule that tells the flesh, "NO!". Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, the law, which circumcision symbolizes, is a cutting off of that part of ourselves that we refer to as "the flesh". And it makes no difference if you are talking about the Law of Moses itself or the list of rules your pastor has in place for what sort of clothes you're allowed to wear at church or whether your wife can wear her hair down or whether you must give 10% of your income to the church or whether its okay to smoke cigarettes or eat at Burger King. All such rules doom the Christian to failure! Why? Because every one of them presuppose that the flesh lives! They all presuppose that you are better than you are and that you are capable of doing righteousness. You're not! Stop trying! Contradiction cannot exist! You can either reckon your flesh to have been crucified (i.e. that its dead) or you can set up rules in attempt to cut off its desires. You cannot do both!
The only righteousness you have is that which has been imputed to you by God. It is a righteousness that does not belong to you and that you did not earn and that you cannot screw up! It is the righteousness of Christ that has been credited to your account. The key question is, do you believe it? Those that believe it understand that the Christian life is not about working but about resting. The more real the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ becomes in your mind, the more you will relax and simply rest in His completed work. When it stops being about doing and becomes about being then the doing of it will stop being of your flesh and will be of Christ.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
This is Paul's Gospel (Romans 2:16 & 16:25; II Timothy 2:18). It does not exist outside of Paul's epistles and if Paul's epistles did not exist we would all be Messianic Jews or the equivalent. It is precisely those who do not distinguish between Paul's ministry and that of the twelve (II Timothy 2:15) who are doomed to be permanently engaged in a constant battle with their flesh. Their flesh is the undead, unrelenting, moaning zombie that they cannot kill because THEY keep resurrecting it! They keep trying to become that which God has already declared them to be. They keep aspiring to that which is already theirs! They cannot reach God because they refuse to believe that they are already IN HIM. Their life then becomes one failure after another, one constant battle between wanting love but feeling guilt. You are not guilty! You were guilty before you came to Christ but once you received Christ, your guilt was transferred to Him and His death paid the price for it. Any further guilt on your part is UNJUST! It is you telling God that Christ's suffering wasn't enough - I must also suffer! It isn't so! There is no place for guilt in the life of a Christian for you are not under law but in Christ. You can no more be guilty of sin than can Christ be.
Resting in Him,
Clete
You know, this website is really cool. I really get a kick out of rereading things that I wrote years ago. Much of it I don't hardly even remember writing!
I had just a terrific discussion with Turbosixx that culminated with post 460 which is all about sin and guilt and how it related to the Christian in the Dispensation of Grace...
This is just an absolutely terrific question! It really goes straight to the heart of the real practical difference between A9D and basically every other doctrinal system.
Some people really make a huge issue out of the word "sin" and develop detailed doctrinal constructs around the meaning of that one word. I'm reminded of a guy who used to post here on TOL whose user name was Sozo. He's a really smart guy and wrote some of the most terrific posts about grace but holy crap was he caught up on the word "sin". He just flatly insisted that it was not possible for a Christian to sin and based STRICTLY on his very tight definition of the word, he was right. The problem he had though is that he was nearly the only person in the world that used the word 'sin' in such way.
I make no effort to do such things. In fact, if anything, I attempt to use terms in the most common understanding possible so as to avoid the sort of confusion that Sozo was constantly fighting while he was here.
So, having said that, let me answer your question this way. If by 'sin' you mean committing an act that you know you shouldn't then the answer is an unqualified, "Yes, of course!". Christians do thing that hurt themselves and those around them, things that God does not like and does not want them to do.
BUT! He does not hold those sins against us because He has already held it against His Son who died in our place, receiving the just punishment for our sin.
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Put another way, the wages of sin are death (note that this was so WAY before the Law of Moses - it goes all the way back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it is no mere coincidence by the way that both that Tree and the Law have a ministry of death.) and we are identified in Christ's death. What hold then does sin have over us? This is precisely the theme of the whole of Romans 6 and 7.
So, do Christians do things they shouldn't (a.k.a. sin)? Sure they do. Christians aren't perfect, they're forgiven, as they say. But there is a perspective from which this is not so. That is to say, it is not inaccurate to say that we are perfect - IN HIM! This was a major point Zozo would make all the time and it is a point that is quite correct. It is only in our flesh that sin exists and we are to reckon ourselves to have been crucified with Christ. This reckoning is the key to the Christian life.
One of the most critical things that a Christian must learn is that he cannot live the Christian life. It is Christ who lives His life through us by faith. It cannot be done through the flesh. And this is really critical - The law, any law, has to do with the flesh. It is a rule that tells the flesh, "NO!". Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, the law, which circumcision symbolizes, is a cutting off of that part of ourselves that we refer to as "the flesh". And it makes no difference if you are talking about the Law of Moses itself or the list of rules your pastor has in place for what sort of clothes you're allowed to wear at church or whether your wife can wear her hair down or whether you must give 10% of your income to the church or whether its okay to smoke cigarettes or eat at Burger King. All such rules doom the Christian to failure! Why? Because every one of them presuppose that the flesh lives! They all presuppose that you are better than you are and that you are capable of doing righteousness. You're not! Stop trying! Contradiction cannot exist! You can either reckon your flesh to have been crucified (i.e. that its dead) or you can set up rules in attempt to cut off its desires. You cannot do both!
The only righteousness you have is that which has been imputed to you by God. It is a righteousness that does not belong to you and that you did not earn and that you cannot screw up! It is the righteousness of Christ that has been credited to your account. The key question is, do you believe it? Those that believe it understand that the Christian life is not about working but about resting. The more real the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ becomes in your mind, the more you will relax and simply rest in His completed work. When it stops being about doing and becomes about being then the doing of it will stop being of your flesh and will be of Christ.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
This is Paul's Gospel (Romans 2:16 & 16:25; II Timothy 2:18). It does not exist outside of Paul's epistles and if Paul's epistles did not exist we would all be Messianic Jews or the equivalent. It is precisely those who do not distinguish between Paul's ministry and that of the twelve (II Timothy 2:15) who are doomed to be permanently engaged in a constant battle with their flesh. Their flesh is the undead, unrelenting, moaning zombie that they cannot kill because THEY keep resurrecting it! They keep trying to become that which God has already declared them to be. They keep aspiring to that which is already theirs! They cannot reach God because they refuse to believe that they are already IN HIM. Their life then becomes one failure after another, one constant battle between wanting love but feeling guilt. You are not guilty! You were guilty before you came to Christ but once you received Christ, your guilt was transferred to Him and His death paid the price for it. Any further guilt on your part is UNJUST! It is you telling God that Christ's suffering wasn't enough - I must also suffer! It isn't so! There is no place for guilt in the life of a Christian for you are not under law but in Christ. You can no more be guilty of sin than can Christ be.
Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are the following words of Peter not the same gospel which Paul was first given?:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).
And what about Peter's words here?:
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Wow. :first:
turbosixx
New member
Hey, glad you want to start up another discussion. I really enjoy discussing with you.
Wish I had more time to give you something more to reply to but all I have time for is a question.
Can we agree that Paul's epistles are written to Christians?
They were "Christians" in the sense that they were followers of Christ and believed that Jesus was the Messiah and that He died for their sins and rose from the dead.
But they were not Christians in the sense that they believed that they were saved by grace alone apart from the law. They believed and taught and practiced that they were required to obey the Law of Moses, excepting, of course, those laws dealing with animal sacrifice and other rituals that were fulfilled in Christ's death on the cross (see the book of Hebrews) and, I believe, with Peter's encounter with God at Cornelius' house (Acts 10), they were no longer required to avoid "unclean" foods - even though many of them did (Gal. 2).
The difference between the two groups and their respective message can most clearly be seen in the following two passages....
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Romans 4:4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Romans 4:4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Here we see the two groups most distinctly. One group's faith is dead without works, the other is just the opposite.
In short, the converts of Peter, James and John (i.e. The Twelve) would have functioned much like modern day Messianic Jews and in fact we all would if not for Paul's epistles, which most modern Messianic Jews completely ignore and/or even despise and reject as a fraud.
Resting in Him,
Clete
turbosixx
New member
I'm glad we agree Paul's epistles are written to Christians. From your explanation above I believe we're in agreement but I want to be sure. I really want to address the rest of your post but to keep it simple and establish a sort of foundation before moving on I would like to make sure we're on the same page.
I believe it's clear in the address of Paul's epistles that he is talking to Christians like in this address to the church at Corinth.
2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
Can we agree that they are in Christ and therefore have received grace?
Right Divider
Body part
Paul's followers in Antioch where the first ones called Christians according to the Bible.
Acts 11:26 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
turbosixx
New member
So are you saying no one was a Christian before this?
Right Divider
Body part
I'm saying that the BIBLE says that the first ones called Christians were NOT those in Jerusalem, which would include all of the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel.
This is a VERY significant fact.
turbosixx
New member
Why do you see it as significant?
Right Divider
Body part
Really? Are you serious?
Acts 11 was about a time at least FOUR years after Christ's ministry to Israel first started and the BIBLE makes it clear that His followers were NOT called Christians there in Israel.
But to you this means nothing?
The Bible is a book of details and YET when it gives you significant details, you ignore them as if they do not exist.
turbosixx
New member
Do you believe that being called something different makes them different? Were they taught something different than those converts before?
Right Divider
Body part
- There is a reason that the Bible makes this point in Acts 11:26
- Yes, there was something different that you refuse to see.
turbosixx
New member
From what I read they were taught the same thing as those on Pentecost and therefore converted the same way. What makes them different?
Right Divider
Body part
Why does the Bible point out the fact that the first ones called Christians were not those in Jerusalem for YEARS with the CHRIST?