ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
"But we believe we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Act 15:11
Peter at the Jerusalem Council, after conferring with Paul. It could not be more clear. They agreed.
Peter at the Jerusalem Council, after conferring with Paul. It could not be more clear. They agreed.
heir
TOL Subscriber
It could not be more clear that the gospel of Christ was not preached there!
Peter preached,
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
which is contrary to what Paul preached
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Peter preached the gospel of the kingdom:
Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Peter delivers the murder indictment, but that God raised Christ up just as he preached in Acts 2 and 3
Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
And it's all about the name (Matthew 16:15-18 KJV, the book of John) and please notice that through His name whosoever believeth on Him shall receive remission of sins. That is consistent with the gospel of the kingdom.
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Peter's usual order of business was to deliver a murder indictment and preach a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins and in so doing they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:36-38 KJV), but before he could finish his usual, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
They were astonished at what happens because it was out of order, but what does Peter do? He continues to preach what he knows and that's water baptism in the name of the Lord!
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Corne and his house heard what Peter preached, but there is no gospel of Christ to be believed there!
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Acts 15
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
The question is, "When?"
For them,
1 Peter 1
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
For us,
Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
The question is, "When?"
For them,
1 Peter 1
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
For us,
Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Plenty of people around here get either my fangs or I just ignore them. You can usually tell pretty quickly, within just two or three posts (sometimes less than that!) whether someone is here to discuss thing with people or just to shoot their mouth off.
Intellectual honesty is everything and its obvious enough who is and who isn't being honest. The dishonest ones talk about half baked semi-arguments as being "proof" and dismiss counter examples or counter arguments without response or respond to them by merely repeating their argument. My favorite is when they alter the meaning of common words.
The problem is so wide spread that you have to be able to tolerate that to some degree or else you'd pretty much never participate here. The ones I can tolerate the least are the ones that seem to not realize what they are doing. They just keep plugging away in the same mode no matter what you say or how many times you beg them to make an argument. Its as though they do not understand what an argument is. They're just a waste of time.
You, on the other hand, actually engage in a two way conversation! I don't care if you ever agree with a word I've said! Well, that's not true but I mean whether you do or not, this has been a terrific conversation!
What I think most people don't get is that whether you convince anyone of anything or not, if what you believe is the truth, there is no threat in engaging a rational argument. The worst case scenario here for me is that you remain unconvinced while having put me through my paces. Where's the harm in that? But so many people here are just scared like little rabbits to engage in an intellectually honest, rationally coherent discussion with anyone where they might be caused to change their mind about something. I really don't get it. If I was that way, I think I'd find a different hobby.
Anyway, I'll add to what I was talking about in my last post and will wait for your return from the holiday vacation.
God bless you and have a merry Christmas!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Cross Reference
New member
The question was never when. Paul is speaking of living with the hope that is within him that is by faith in the atonement by Jesus Christ that satisfies. By faith has it been revealed to him . . . .
insight given.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Amen and things that are different are NOT the same!
heir
TOL Subscriber
That was Peter that said what you quoted (Acts 15:7 KJV), silly man.
As to the atonement: it was made, but the timing of it's application is different! Get saved and study it out!
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1
That's the same message as Acts 10:35.
Cross Reference
New member
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Peter was talking the completion of grace at the Lord's return in verse 13.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." 1 Peter 1:3
And here 10 verses before that he describes the beginning of grace. Grace from first to last...
lifeisgood
New member
The baptism that saves has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with water.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Acts 15
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
1 Peter 1
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Peter was referring to the grace that brings salvation. For them it is at the second coming.
Not so for Paul, and us. We have it now.
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Salvation from what?Acts 15
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
1 Peter 1
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Peter was referring to the grace that brings salvation. For them it is at the second coming.
Not so for Paul, and us. We have it now.
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Our sins... Peter and Paul agree.
Life without Christ... Peter and Paul agree we need the Holy Spirit.
From Hell at the end of our days... Peter and Paul agree.
"For the grace of God appeared, bringing Salvation for all people, ... Waiting for our blessed hope, the apperaring of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." Titus 2:11, 13
They say the same things. This preoccupation with this division is mind boggling.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
They think the blessed hope is their definition of the rapture.
Cross Reference
New member
"If" intimates the possibility of failure. Man never stops being vulnerable simply because he makes a profession of faith in God. Jesus was vulnerable and he was the son of God!
Cross Reference
New member
Salvation must be understood to be as being saved unto something whereas redemption is meant to be understood as being redeemed from something. Believing for redemption can easily bring on a "celebration". Salvation carries with it the understanding of the need to "surrender one's life" for the benefit to be realized. When understood properly, redemption can then be viewed as an incidental with the "celebration" being put into it proper perspective..
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
LA
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
The following is a re-post and continuation of post #409. I'm just posting all of it here so as to make it easier to follow the line of thinking but also to make it easier to respond too.....
This is just an absolutely terrific question! It really goes straight to the heart of the real practical difference between A9D and basically every other doctrinal system.
Some people really make a huge issue out of the word "sin" and develop detailed doctrinal constructs around the meaning of that one word. I'm reminded of a guy who used to post here on TOL whose user name was Sozo. He's a really smart guy and wrote some of the most terrific posts about grace but holy crap was he caught up on the word "sin". He just flatly insisted that it was not possible for a Christian to sin and based STRICTLY on his very tight definition of the word, he was right. The problem he had though is that he was nearly the only person in the world that used the word 'sin' in such way.
I make no effort to do such things. In fact, if anything, I attempt to use terms in the most common understanding possible so as to avoid the sort of confusion that Sozo was constantly fighting while he was here.
So, having said that, let me answer your question this way. If by 'sin' you mean committing an act that you know you shouldn't then the answer is an unqualified, "Yes, of course!". Christians do thing that hurt themselves and those around them, things that God does not like and does not want them to do.
BUT! He does not hold those sins against us because He has already held it against His Son who died in our place, receiving the just punishment for our sin.
Put another way, the wages of sin are death (note that this was so WAY before the Law of Moses - it goes all the way back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it is no mere coincidence by the way that both that Tree and the Law have a ministry of death.) and we are identified in Christ's death. What hold then does sin have over us? This is precisely the theme of the whole of Romans 6 and 7.
So, do Christians do things they shouldn't (a.k.a. sin)? Sure they do. Christians aren't perfect, they're forgiven, as they say. But there is a perspective from which this is not so. That is to say, it is not inaccurate to say that we are perfect - IN HIM! This was a major point Zozo would make all the time and it is a point that is quite correct. It is only in our flesh that sin exists and we are to reckon ourselves to have been crucified with Christ. This reckoning is the key to the Christian life.
One of the most critical things that a Christian must learn is that he cannot live the Christian life. It is Christ who lives His life through us by faith. It cannot be done through the flesh. And this is really critical - The law, any law, has to do with the flesh. It is a rule that tells the flesh, "NO!". Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, the law, which circumcision symbolizes, is a cutting off of that part of ourselves that we refer to as "the flesh". And it makes no difference if you are talking about the Law of Moses itself or the list of rules your pastor has in place for what sort of clothes you're allowed to wear at church or whether your wife can wear her hair down or whether you must give 10% of your income to the church or whether its okay to smoke cigarettes or eat at Burger King. All such rules doom the Christian to failure! Why? Because every one of them presuppose that the flesh lives! They all presuppose that you are better than you are and that you are capable of doing righteousness. You're not! Stop trying! Contradiction cannot exist! You can either reckon your flesh to have been crucified (i.e. that its dead) or you can set up rules in attempt to cut off its desires. You cannot do both!
The only righteousness you have is that which has been imputed to you by God. It is a righteousness that does not belong to you and that you did not earn and that you cannot screw up! It is the righteousness of Christ that has been credited to your account. The key question is, do you believe it? Those that believe it understand that the Christian life is not about working but about resting. The more real the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ becomes in your mind, the more you will relax and simply rest in His completed work. When it stops being about doing and becomes about being then the doing of it will stop being of your flesh and will be of Christ.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
This is Paul's Gospel (Romans 2:16 & 16:25; II Timothy 2:18). It does not exist outside of Paul's epistles and if Paul's epistles did not exist we would all be Messianic Jews or the equivalent. It is precisely those who do not distinguish between Paul's ministry and that of the twelve (II Timothy 2:15) who are doomed to be permanently engaged in a constant battle with their flesh. Their flesh is the undead, unrelenting, moaning zombie that they cannot kill because THEY keep resurrecting it! They keep trying to become that which God has already declared them to be. They keep aspiring to that which is already theirs! They cannot reach God because they refuse to believe that they are already IN HIM. Their life then becomes one failure after another, one constant battle between wanting love but feeling guilt. You are not guilty! You were guilty before you came to Christ but once you received Christ, your guilt was transferred to Him and His death paid the price for it. Any further guilt on your part is UNJUST! It is you telling God that Christ's suffering wasn't enough - I must also suffer! It isn't so! There is no place for guilt in the life of a Christian for you are not under law but in Christ. You can no more be guilty of sin than can Christ be.
Resting in Him,
Clete
This is just an absolutely terrific question! It really goes straight to the heart of the real practical difference between A9D and basically every other doctrinal system.
Some people really make a huge issue out of the word "sin" and develop detailed doctrinal constructs around the meaning of that one word. I'm reminded of a guy who used to post here on TOL whose user name was Sozo. He's a really smart guy and wrote some of the most terrific posts about grace but holy crap was he caught up on the word "sin". He just flatly insisted that it was not possible for a Christian to sin and based STRICTLY on his very tight definition of the word, he was right. The problem he had though is that he was nearly the only person in the world that used the word 'sin' in such way.
I make no effort to do such things. In fact, if anything, I attempt to use terms in the most common understanding possible so as to avoid the sort of confusion that Sozo was constantly fighting while he was here.
So, having said that, let me answer your question this way. If by 'sin' you mean committing an act that you know you shouldn't then the answer is an unqualified, "Yes, of course!". Christians do thing that hurt themselves and those around them, things that God does not like and does not want them to do.
BUT! He does not hold those sins against us because He has already held it against His Son who died in our place, receiving the just punishment for our sin.
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Put another way, the wages of sin are death (note that this was so WAY before the Law of Moses - it goes all the way back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it is no mere coincidence by the way that both that Tree and the Law have a ministry of death.) and we are identified in Christ's death. What hold then does sin have over us? This is precisely the theme of the whole of Romans 6 and 7.
So, do Christians do things they shouldn't (a.k.a. sin)? Sure they do. Christians aren't perfect, they're forgiven, as they say. But there is a perspective from which this is not so. That is to say, it is not inaccurate to say that we are perfect - IN HIM! This was a major point Zozo would make all the time and it is a point that is quite correct. It is only in our flesh that sin exists and we are to reckon ourselves to have been crucified with Christ. This reckoning is the key to the Christian life.
One of the most critical things that a Christian must learn is that he cannot live the Christian life. It is Christ who lives His life through us by faith. It cannot be done through the flesh. And this is really critical - The law, any law, has to do with the flesh. It is a rule that tells the flesh, "NO!". Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, the law, which circumcision symbolizes, is a cutting off of that part of ourselves that we refer to as "the flesh". And it makes no difference if you are talking about the Law of Moses itself or the list of rules your pastor has in place for what sort of clothes you're allowed to wear at church or whether your wife can wear her hair down or whether you must give 10% of your income to the church or whether its okay to smoke cigarettes or eat at Burger King. All such rules doom the Christian to failure! Why? Because every one of them presuppose that the flesh lives! They all presuppose that you are better than you are and that you are capable of doing righteousness. You're not! Stop trying! Contradiction cannot exist! You can either reckon your flesh to have been crucified (i.e. that its dead) or you can set up rules in attempt to cut off its desires. You cannot do both!
The only righteousness you have is that which has been imputed to you by God. It is a righteousness that does not belong to you and that you did not earn and that you cannot screw up! It is the righteousness of Christ that has been credited to your account. The key question is, do you believe it? Those that believe it understand that the Christian life is not about working but about resting. The more real the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ becomes in your mind, the more you will relax and simply rest in His completed work. When it stops being about doing and becomes about being then the doing of it will stop being of your flesh and will be of Christ.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
This is Paul's Gospel (Romans 2:16 & 16:25; II Timothy 2:18). It does not exist outside of Paul's epistles and if Paul's epistles did not exist we would all be Messianic Jews or the equivalent. It is precisely those who do not distinguish between Paul's ministry and that of the twelve (II Timothy 2:15) who are doomed to be permanently engaged in a constant battle with their flesh. Their flesh is the undead, unrelenting, moaning zombie that they cannot kill because THEY keep resurrecting it! They keep trying to become that which God has already declared them to be. They keep aspiring to that which is already theirs! They cannot reach God because they refuse to believe that they are already IN HIM. Their life then becomes one failure after another, one constant battle between wanting love but feeling guilt. You are not guilty! You were guilty before you came to Christ but once you received Christ, your guilt was transferred to Him and His death paid the price for it. Any further guilt on your part is UNJUST! It is you telling God that Christ's suffering wasn't enough - I must also suffer! It isn't so! There is no place for guilt in the life of a Christian for you are not under law but in Christ. You can no more be guilty of sin than can Christ be.
Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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