ECT How is Paul's message different?

[patrick jane]

Sorry your short on time. I will be soon, going on vacation.

Once again, you did an excellent job in presenting your argument. I have a better understand of your point of view. I wish I could do as well; we might be further along in this discussion. Like you said, I almost agree with you.

Having a better understanding has created more questions but I'll start here. Your comment “works are not required” got me to thinking. I'm not sure of your position so I have to aks, if nothing is required of us, are we under “any” law? Can a Christian sin?

I’m sure you know my point of view but I will go ahead and answer the questions. I believe we are under law and we can sin. Not the law of Moses but Christ’s law as Paul says.
1 Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Coupled with being under the law of Christ I see far too many passages that tell us not to sin to believe otherwise. So does grace mean that nothing is required of us? Grace gives us instructions. Does grace give us a choice in following its instructions?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

Since we can sin I believe we are covered by grace but only so far. Grace is not a license to sin so there must be a line somewhere. This passage is how I understand it.
Heb. 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians, mostly 2nd generation Christians, that were considering a return to Judaism. The book of Hebrews is written to a specific audience for certain reasons; not to everybody. Paul's epistles give instruction from Christ:


1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV -

 

[turbosixx]

This is just an absolutely terrific question! It really goes straight to the heart of the real practical difference between A9D and basically every other doctrinal system.

Some people really make a huge issue out of the word "sin" and develop detailed doctrinal constructs around the meaning of that one word. I'm reminded of a guy who used to post here on TOL whose user name was Sozo. He's a really smart guy and wrote some of the most terrific posts about grace but holy crap was he caught up on the word "sin". He just flatly insisted that it was no possible for a Christian to sin and based STRICTLY on his very tight definition of the word, he was right. The problem he had though is that he was nearly the only person in the world that used the word sin in such way.
I make no effort to do such things. In fact, if anything, I attempt to use terms in the most common understanding possible so as to avoid the sort of confusion that Sozo was constantly fighting while he was here.

So, having said that, let me answer your question this way. If by 'sin' you mean committing an act that you know you shouldn't then the answer is an unqualified, "Yes, of course!". Christians do thing that hurt themselves and those around them, things that God does not like and does not want them to do.

BUT! He does not hold those sins against us because He has already held it against His Son who died in our place, receiving the just punishment for our sin.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.​

Put another way, the wages of sin are death (note that this was so WAY before the Law of Moses - it goes all the way back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - it is no mere coincidence by the way that both that Tree and the Law have a ministry of death.) and we are identified in Christ's death. What hold then does sin have over us? This is precisely the theme of the whole of Romans 6 and 7.

I hate being so short on time!

I will continue this later!

I'm really getting a lot out of our discussion. You’re challenging my understanding and that’s why I’m here. I especially appreciate your attitude. Most times when I disagree with others I get the fangs. It might be how I come off over a forum but I do my best to be respectful. I’m not here to be a know it all or look down on anyone, just to challenge our thinking. Paul thought he knew the truth while he was persecuting Christians. What makes us any different.

This will be my last post for a while. As I said I’m leaving for vacation soon and won’t have much time before we leave, but when I return, if you have time I definitely want to continue our discussion. Meanwhile I will be pondering what we have talked about already.

 

[turbosixx]

Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians, mostly 2nd generation Christians, that were considering a return to Judaism. The book of Hebrews is written to a specific audience for certain reasons; not to everybody. Paul's epistles give instruction from Christ:


1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV -

I agree with all of that you said but I’m not sure about you last statement, “Paul's epistles give instruction from Christ:" If these are Christians and this is an inspired book, why wouldn’t these instructions be from Christ. The book even starts out telling us “in these last days spoken to us by His Son,”

Do you believe there are divisions in Christ?

 

[turbosixx]

No. This is why we beg and plead people to study what Paul said. Instead of scouring his letters looking for condemnation. Sin is a state of being. We are born in sin. And death is the result.

Those of us who are baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ are baptized into his death, not our own. And who are in his death will also be in his resurrection. Reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to Christ.

I look at the bible as a whole and try to fit it all together to understand what God wants me to know. Paul said without law we are not charged with sin.

​

Rom. 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

It’s clear Paul believes we can sin because in his letters he is says live righteous and do not sin. From the above scripture if we’re not under law then sin is not charged against us. From my understanding of what Paul says, we are under law. Not under the Law (Mosaical) but under the law of Christ.

​

1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Grace itself gives us instructions. Do you beleive these instructions to be commandments? If not, what?

​

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

 

[Shasta]

THE NEW BIRTH



A. E. Knoch (1874-1965)
The Words of Man’s Wisdom

What internal and external evidence do you have apart from your preexisting belief system that John's letters were written to and for Jews rather than Gentiles?

 

[Shasta]

What Peter preached to them

Acts 10:35 KJV

What Paul preached Titus 3:5 KJV

Things that are different are not the same.

All you did in this post was restate your belief which I already knew. I was wanting you to explain (compare and contrast) the differences between the so-called Jewish gospel and the Gentile gospel.

 

[Shasta]

Look at how the entire post above is void of Paul's gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,...(Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). And the verses that were cited from Paul are taken out of context. What a shocker from the religious, but lost!


You had no hope unless God had a mystery concerning you (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV). Get saved and get with the program of 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!

If you will read my post again you will see I quoted Paul. Perhaps you should lay out what you think his "mystery gospel" was so it can be proven by the word.

 

[Shasta]

Look at how the entire post above is void of Paul's gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,...(Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). And the verses that were cited from Paul are taken out of context. What a shocker from the religious, but lost!

You had no hope unless God had a mystery concerning you (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV). Get saved and get with the program of 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!

I quoted from Paul's letters. If you think I took his remarks out of context then say exactly how I have done so, otherwise I will take your remarks to be nothing more than a gratuitous assertion. I doubt you took the time to understand what I was getting at so instead you just reiterated your doctrinal position.

What I was attempting to show was that Paul's gospel like Jesus' gospel was taken in large measure from prophecies that foretold the New Covenant. This is not my idea (or Peter's) but Paul's.

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for THE gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,

3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations
(Romans 1:1-5)

Here Paul acknowledges that his gospel came out of OT prophecies The truths which had been hidden there were reveald, to Paul by Jesus in a vision, to the other Apostles by Jesus when He visited them after the Resurrection. Paul reiterates the same idea at the very end of this epistle.

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you
according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—(Romans 16:25-26)

Here he gives several avenues by which the Romans had received the truth of the gospel. One was the what he himself had received from Jesus by revelation and preached to them. The other was "the preaching of Jesus Christ" taught and handed down to them orally from the Master Himself through the other Apostles. Paul says that they will be strengthened by receiving from both sources simultaneously. The conjunction AND joins "his gospel" AND the "preaching of Jesus Christ" into one stream. If MAD had been true they would have been strengthened by either one gospel or the other, depending on whether they were Jewish or Gentile. As it was strengthening came from the receiving from Paul AND Jesus.

Yet there is still another source of stability and strength. The verse says that the mystery that had been kept secret and was disclosed was also being made known "through the prophetic writings." We should, therefore, expect that truth will be revealed and confirmed by the scriptures (OT in this context). For me to look to the prophetic writings to study various facets of the gospel is not contrary to Paul at all. It is what he commended the Bereans for.

Many of your camp seem to have a self-righteous attitude. At least this is the only conclusion I can come to when I read that you have summarily declared me to be "religious" and "lost" simply because I do not agree with you about MAD. Do you think that every Christian in history who did or does not believe MAD is lost too? If so then you are belong to an extremely narrow sectarian group. Salvation depends on whether you have a living faith in Christ not on whether you believe in multiple dispensations. I have never made blanket judgments on you or anyone in your party. I think you are in error but I would not say you are lost or an unbeliever. Furthermore, I submit that you do not even understand enough of my beliefs to say they are heretical. My advice is to get off the judge's bench and back on the witness stand where we all should be.

 

[Nick M]

I agree with all of that you said but I’m not sure about you last statement, “Paul's epistles give instruction from Christ:"

Is that what the author of Hebrews says?

 

[Nick M]

I look at the bible as a whole and try to fit it all together to understand what God wants me to know. Paul said without law we are not charged with sin.

​

Rom. 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses.

 

[turbosixx]

Is that what the author of Hebrews says?

I believe so,
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,

 

[turbosixx]

Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses.

Yep, that's what Paul says and I believe him.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Paul was to the gentiles.

All the apostles including all of the 120 were sent to the nations.

This is why the 12x10=120.

Ten is the number for the nations.

2Ch 5:12 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets
2Ch 5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

The day of Pentecost saw the NC occurrence that the law was the shadow of.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

After this began the conversion of the nations for the trumpets of Joshua showed the entering of the Gods people into the pagan land of the world. (land and world is same word.)

Peter first preached to the nations.--

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The Glory had returned to the Temple.

Read Isaiah ch 60.

LA

 

[Cross Reference]

All the apostles including all of the 120 were sent to the nations.

This is why the 12x10=120.

Ten is the number for the nations.

2Ch 5:12 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets
2Ch 5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

The day of Pentecost saw the NC occurrence that the law was the shadow of.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

After this began the conversion of the nations for the trumpets of Joshua showed the entering of the Gods people into the pagan land of the world. (land and world is same word.)

Peter first preached to the nations.--

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The Glory had returned to the Temple.

Read Isaiah ch 60.

LA

You are over your head. The second covenant upon which man is purposed to build his life, was sealed when Jesus cried from the cross, "It is Finished"! Redemption of all mankind, happened! John 3:16 was now available to all mankind to be understood that Jesus had now provided a way whereby eternal life as a son of God was made open to those who had already believed in God unto righteousness and those yet to believe in Him.. The purpose of Pentecost was to empower the preacher who would now carry the "good news" to the nations. Thousands would so after that day in Acts 2.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You are over your head. The second covenant upon which man is purposed to build his life, was sealed when Jesus cried from the cross, "It is Finished"! Redemption of all mankind, happened! John 3:16 was now available to all mankind to be understood that Jesus had now provided a way whereby eternal life as a son of God was made open to those who had already believed in God unto righteousness and those yet to believe in Him.. The purpose of Pentecost was to empower the preacher who would now carry the "good news" to the nations. Thousands would so after that day in Acts 2.

What you do not realize is that Christ Himself is the power of the gospel.

LA

 

[musterion]

What internal and external evidence do you have apart from your preexisting belief system that John's letters were written to and for Jews rather than Gentiles?

Gal 2:2-9.

 

[heir]

All you did in this post was restate your belief which I already knew. I was wanting you to explain (compare and contrast) the differences between the so-called Jewish gospel and the Gentile gospel.

I don't know which gospel you are referring to when you say, "the so-called Jewish gospel" nor which when you say "the Gentile gospel".

 

[heir]

If you will read my post again you will see I quoted Paul. Perhaps you should lay out what you think his "mystery gospel" was so it can be proven by the word.

It has been done over and over with scripture and still you believe not.

 

[heir]

I quoted from Paul's letters. If you think I took his remarks out of context then say exactly how I have done so, otherwise I will take your remarks to be nothing more than a gratuitous assertion. I doubt you took the time to understand what I was getting at so instead you just reiterated your doctrinal position.

Oh, please! You are so long winded in every post all over this site and when others do respond, you blow off everything that shows your error. What's the point?

 

[heir]

Gal 2:2-9.

and John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.