ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
My question? How about the one I've been repeating for the last 20 posts or so...
lifeisgood
New member
Do you reject Romans 11? You still have not been specific about it.
lifeisgood
New member
Let's start here: 'Do you, IP, reject Romans 11?'
A yes/no will suffice so the conversation can continue.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Finally, thanks.
Nope it does not mean that in Rom 11. The D'ist trick is this: by trying to think that the new covenant is 1, futurist, and 2, the regathering of Israel (it is neither), they have come back to Rom 11 ever since the movement started 200 years ago and said 'see, Israel will be regathered.' They think heb 8 helps them inspite of all the explanations in ch 9 and 10.
That is not what Paul is saying at all. The Israel that believes will be justified from their sins and are being justified from their sins, now , in the covenant that was just launched in Christ, who takes away sins. That expression 'takes away sins' was used by JohnB from the start.
To block that fact about JohnB, all of these ridiculous people get on TOL here and say that no one in the gospels knew of atonement for sin. They say you can't find it in the gospels. That is dishonest nonsense. The very proclamation of Christ being the Lamb, said John, was about that. And that was the covenant in his blood.
I have tried for 2 years to get RD to explain why a covenant would be in blood, why he would mention his blood as the covenant. For 2 years. D'ism is crap that was invented by a guy 200 years ago who said the Bible didn't make sense until he came. Kind of like Brigham Young but far more insidious.
Interplanner
Well-known member
#2 the Isaiah quotes are historic, D'ism says they are our future.
Paul is using them historically; they are already in effect. that is how 'in this manner' those who believers among Israel are saved. The nation/race is partially hardened, but the believers are not. And the fulfillment of those Isaiah things is not waiting for a 2nd time around with the race/nation.
How? 11:30 God has delivered all men over to sin, and can have mercy on them all in Christ. That is what God is doing, and that is the Gospel's end to nation/race dealings. There aren't any more, and I believe you can find in the NT use of the OT, that there wasn't really any in the OT. Like Heb 11, and like Gal 3:17 with post-exile Judaism replacing Promise with Law.
Paul is using them historically; they are already in effect. that is how 'in this manner' those who believers among Israel are saved. The nation/race is partially hardened, but the believers are not. And the fulfillment of those Isaiah things is not waiting for a 2nd time around with the race/nation.
How? 11:30 God has delivered all men over to sin, and can have mercy on them all in Christ. That is what God is doing, and that is the Gospel's end to nation/race dealings. There aren't any more, and I believe you can find in the NT use of the OT, that there wasn't really any in the OT. Like Heb 11, and like Gal 3:17 with post-exile Judaism replacing Promise with Law.
lifeisgood
New member
Another Replacement Theology proponent.
So your answer to 'IP, do you reject Romans 11' is an unequivocal yes.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are works required for salvation under the law? Peter didn't think so:
"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:8-11).
Clete, you do know that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive, don't you?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Yes, some things are replaced, which is why D'ism is so obnoxious about reading heb 9 and 10, which are the official comment on what was quoted from jer. in ch 8. There are most definitely replacements!
8:5 shadows and copies are replaced
8:6
8:7
8:13
9:10
9:11 the new things are already "here" in Christ
9:23 better sacrifice
9:26, once for all time
10:1 the shadow again, not the reality
10:9 the old is set aside
10:18 there are no more sacrifices for sins
IN addition there is Gal 3:17. Judaism replaced the Promise to all nations, with the Law. That is the RT problem we should be dealing with.
But the guy who invented D'ism 200 years ago, because he didn't think the Bible made sense, has everyone tooting his bugle. WHen he cries foul that israel was replaced by the normal meaning of the text, everyone jumps with him. It is nonsense.
8:5 shadows and copies are replaced
8:6
8:7
8:13
9:10
9:11 the new things are already "here" in Christ
9:23 better sacrifice
9:26, once for all time
10:1 the shadow again, not the reality
10:9 the old is set aside
10:18 there are no more sacrifices for sins
IN addition there is Gal 3:17. Judaism replaced the Promise to all nations, with the Law. That is the RT problem we should be dealing with.
But the guy who invented D'ism 200 years ago, because he didn't think the Bible made sense, has everyone tooting his bugle. WHen he cries foul that israel was replaced by the normal meaning of the text, everyone jumps with him. It is nonsense.
lifeisgood
New member
One of the coolest ones I've seen, especially these:
• Gentiles—start warming up. You're in.
• In their place, God grafted on some wild olive branches that didn't belong on the tree (the Gentiles).
• The one problem is that sometimes these new branches can get a bit cocky.
• Don't forget—God didn't go easy on the original branches. He may go a little crazy with the hedge clippers next time he hears the new branches gloating.
=====
Epistle to the Romans Chapter 11 Summary
• Okay, so God has thrown aside the Jewish people, right? It's Gentile time!
• No, no, no! Paul says. God most definitely has not rejected the Jews. After all, they're his peeps. His main squeeze. His chosen crew. Paul should know. He's one of them, after all.
• He tells us the story of Elijah to demonstrate. When Elijah's whole community had turned against him and started worshipping other gods, God told him that it was cool. See, God still saved a few of those people for himself. A few that hadn't totally gone over to the dark side.
• The same is true now, Paul says. Some Jews have been chosen for salvation because God is just oh-so-nice like that. It's true. As a whole, the Jews have stumbled a bit when it comes to believing in Jesus. But Paul is careful to note that doesn't mean they've fallen flat on their faces. No sireee.
• Sure, they did trip over their own feet while they were supposed to be running the ball in for the touchdown. But God hasn't permanently benched them. He's just brought in the second team. Gentiles—start warming up. You're in.
• Look, it's like this. Jesus came to bring God's message to the Jews. Now, because the Jews don't all believe in him, God has decided to spread his message out to non-Jews. Paul says that God did this to make the Jews jealous.
• God is, apparently, a 14-year-old girl.
• On the plus side, the Jewish people's loss is the world's gain! Now everyone gets a chance to be saved. Thanks, non-believers!
• This next section Paul addresses especially to the Gentiles who won this special believing sweepstakes because the previous winners declined the prize.
• Paul knows he's kind of known as "the apostle to the Gentiles" even though he's a Jew. But that's fine with him. Maybe his outreach to the Gentiles will make his fellow Jews jealous. Maybe that jealousy will lead them to salvation. And that would be awesome.
• After all, the Jews are like a tree with holy roots. Each individual person is a branch on that tree. But some of the branches have died and fallen off. Oh, that's sad.
• In their place, God grafted on some wild olive branches that didn't belong on the tree (the Gentiles).
• They're growing and fitting in nicely though so it's all good. The one problem is that sometimes these new branches can get a bit cocky. But Paul reminds them not to get too full of themselves.
• After all, they're not the ones supporting the tree. That's a job for the Jewish roots. Anyway, they only got a spot on the tree because some of the branches fell off. They should be grateful they're even on there.
• Don't forget—God didn't go easy on the original branches. He may go a little crazy with the hedge clippers next time he hears the new branches gloating.
• That's kind of God's deal. If he wants to chop off all the foreign branches and graft his favorite, most cherished branches back on, he can. He's God. He can do stuff like that.
• So don't get cocky, Gentiles. Don't think you're smarter than you are.
• Right now, the non-believers who are Jews are not your friends in Christ, but don't forget that God totally loves them. He goes way back with them. He's promised them things. And God's promises are always the no-take-back kind.
• He will show them mercy because showing people mercy is one of God's favorite things.
https://www.shmoop.com/epistle-romans/chapter-11-summary.html
• Gentiles—start warming up. You're in.
• In their place, God grafted on some wild olive branches that didn't belong on the tree (the Gentiles).
• The one problem is that sometimes these new branches can get a bit cocky.
• Don't forget—God didn't go easy on the original branches. He may go a little crazy with the hedge clippers next time he hears the new branches gloating.
=====
Epistle to the Romans Chapter 11 Summary
• Okay, so God has thrown aside the Jewish people, right? It's Gentile time!
• No, no, no! Paul says. God most definitely has not rejected the Jews. After all, they're his peeps. His main squeeze. His chosen crew. Paul should know. He's one of them, after all.
• He tells us the story of Elijah to demonstrate. When Elijah's whole community had turned against him and started worshipping other gods, God told him that it was cool. See, God still saved a few of those people for himself. A few that hadn't totally gone over to the dark side.
• The same is true now, Paul says. Some Jews have been chosen for salvation because God is just oh-so-nice like that. It's true. As a whole, the Jews have stumbled a bit when it comes to believing in Jesus. But Paul is careful to note that doesn't mean they've fallen flat on their faces. No sireee.
• Sure, they did trip over their own feet while they were supposed to be running the ball in for the touchdown. But God hasn't permanently benched them. He's just brought in the second team. Gentiles—start warming up. You're in.
• Look, it's like this. Jesus came to bring God's message to the Jews. Now, because the Jews don't all believe in him, God has decided to spread his message out to non-Jews. Paul says that God did this to make the Jews jealous.
• God is, apparently, a 14-year-old girl.
• On the plus side, the Jewish people's loss is the world's gain! Now everyone gets a chance to be saved. Thanks, non-believers!
• This next section Paul addresses especially to the Gentiles who won this special believing sweepstakes because the previous winners declined the prize.
• Paul knows he's kind of known as "the apostle to the Gentiles" even though he's a Jew. But that's fine with him. Maybe his outreach to the Gentiles will make his fellow Jews jealous. Maybe that jealousy will lead them to salvation. And that would be awesome.
• After all, the Jews are like a tree with holy roots. Each individual person is a branch on that tree. But some of the branches have died and fallen off. Oh, that's sad.
• In their place, God grafted on some wild olive branches that didn't belong on the tree (the Gentiles).
• They're growing and fitting in nicely though so it's all good. The one problem is that sometimes these new branches can get a bit cocky. But Paul reminds them not to get too full of themselves.
• After all, they're not the ones supporting the tree. That's a job for the Jewish roots. Anyway, they only got a spot on the tree because some of the branches fell off. They should be grateful they're even on there.
• Don't forget—God didn't go easy on the original branches. He may go a little crazy with the hedge clippers next time he hears the new branches gloating.
• That's kind of God's deal. If he wants to chop off all the foreign branches and graft his favorite, most cherished branches back on, he can. He's God. He can do stuff like that.
• So don't get cocky, Gentiles. Don't think you're smarter than you are.
• Right now, the non-believers who are Jews are not your friends in Christ, but don't forget that God totally loves them. He goes way back with them. He's promised them things. And God's promises are always the no-take-back kind.
• He will show them mercy because showing people mercy is one of God's favorite things.
https://www.shmoop.com/epistle-romans/chapter-11-summary.html
lifeisgood
New member
You should give God more credit, IP.
Interplanner
Well-known member
That's the whole point. It is not in the text except by torturous usage and by blocking grammar and background. D'ism is utterly foreign. There is no 'regathered Israel' in mind in the NT, specifically in places where it "should" be: Rom 11, Rom 2, I Cor 15, 2 Pet 3, Heb 9, Acts 13, 26. D'ists are the only ones who can't see that no one (of the apostles) has it in mind, and never refer to it even when it could save their necks. Go figure.
The guy thinks he resolved the OT, but does so without the NT. Just like JohnnyB here 2 days ago: 20 quotes from the OT and says 'see IP, you're a mess.' Meanwhile none of the 2500 uses of the OT by the NT were mentioned. Go figure.
The guy thinks he resolved the OT, but does so without the NT. Just like JohnnyB here 2 days ago: 20 quotes from the OT and says 'see IP, you're a mess.' Meanwhile none of the 2500 uses of the OT by the NT were mentioned. Go figure.
Interplanner
Well-known member
If you are wondering about the paragraph about 'what will their fulness mean' he was referring to them, like himself, in the mission to the nations. Not the land. This is found in the questions in the middle of ch 10. When will they preach like they are supposed to, and how can we get them there?
turbosixx
New member
Baptism wasn't part of Paul's old job and I'm constantly reminded that Jesus didn't send Paul to baptize. So where did he learn it and why did he do it?
turbosixx
New member
Do you add words to God's word to make it fit your thinking? I don't think it's wise to understanding truth.
whitestone
Well-known member
In Acts 21:22 KJV James wants to know something,don't add to it to make it fit your thinking and tell us...
Right Divider
Body part
Water baptism was not new with J the B. It was part of Israel's law from way back.
Heb 6:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (6:2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
NONE of those things were new to J the B or Jesus.
There it is, over the last few posts, from this poser, fellow members of the boc....You, as honest members of the boc, making an honest effort, continually, to understand his/her position, "argument," after he/she has tangled themselves into a mangled ball of wires, ropes, strings, yarns, and neurons...... We are dealing with a punk, fellow members of the boc, named Basil Interplanner, who, when asked, by you, simple questions, tap dances with a white cane and top hat, plays dodge ball, does the hokey pokey, and turns/spins all about, and when asked by me, "specific text(s) questions:"
....what do I get from him/her? "Answers" with evasion, non responsive fluff, the old "They are fulfilled in Christ as the NT says" scam, that can be employed, on any thread/subject.
He's a poser, piece of trash, this Basil Simon, Acts 8 "some great one" sorcerer, warlock, satanically, subtily(Genesis 3 KJV), craftily dismissing verses, making them go away, with....
...or musing, "Figurative...Symbolic....," with more "spiritual" gyrations, back flips, cart wheels, than a gymnastics team, as he can "prove" anything he/she wants.
Does that about sum it up, wrap it up, "tightly," Basil "Interplanner" Simon?
Save it. It's a rhetorical question, you poser, fraud, charlatan, a clown, in a parade, of clowns, thinking you are dealing with your uncle Joe, whoosamovin' kinda slow, on this great board.
Meanwhile, this Interplanner troll, one of the "Three Stooges," has provided a clinic on what has happened to "modern" alleged Christians, as a result of philosophy, humanism, mysticism, Abracadabra-ism, satanic sophistry, and hatred for the underlying literal truth of "the volume of the book," as they turn this book into "Grimm's Fairy Tales," and they wonder why the predominantly Christ rejecting world laughs at them, and Christianity, as these pole cats "splain away" biblical verses/texts, as the Jewish leaders attempted to splain away the missing corpse-they log in, and lose their mind.
Dark answers, inside the dark heart, of this troll, "man," called Interplanner.
Merry "after tax day," Simon Interplanner.......And remember: "Jesus" loves you, and so does Merlin....
turbosixx
New member
Is this what you're looking for?
24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
No words added.
whitestone
Well-known member
In Acts 21:25 KJV the Gentiles,"they observe no such thing",,why is one suppose to observe it and the others not?