How do we know which scriptures are inspired by God?

beameup

New member
Bs"d

"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."
Prov 28:9

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Abraham obeyed the Code of Hammurabi.
What about the NoHide Law?

What happens when you are half-asleep and you accidentally put your milk carton in the meat refrigerator? Does your god of 2 refrigerators strike you dead? :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

Elia

Well-known member
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Abraham obeyed the Code of Hammurabi.
What about the NoHide Law?

Bs"d

Abraham obeyed the laws of God:

"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Gen 26

You know, the laws that you throw overboard and replace with paganism.

You prefer to be a lawless idolatrous pagan above following God.

“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.

“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of Y-H-W-H,
They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.
For the turning away of the simple will slay them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them;"
Prov 1

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”

Joshua 24:14-15
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

Abraham obeyed the laws of God:

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The Mosaic Law was given to Moses at Sinai, long after Abraham was dead.
The only "law" in Abraham's time was the Code of Hammurabi, unless you consider
your fake NoHide Laws, which were cooked-up in the 12th century by your "sage" Maimonides.

I've been searching for your "Law of Two Refrigerators" and am not having any luck in the Torah.

"Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." - Exodus 23:19b
"Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." - Exodus 34:26b
"Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." - Deut 14:21b
 

Elia

Well-known member
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The Mosaic Law was given to Moses at Sinai, long after Abraham was dead.
The only "law" in Abraham's time was the Code of Hammurabi, unless you consider
your fake NoHide Laws, which were cooked-up in the 12th century by your "sage" Maimonides.

Bs"d

God says: ""And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Gen 26:4-5

So according to the Holy Torah, Abraham observed the laws of God.

Now unless you want to say that Hammurabi was God, and that therefore the laws of Hammurabi were God's laws, Abraham did NOT follow Hammurabi's laws.

So we see here that the Noachide laws, the laws given by God to Noach when making the covenant with him, were in effect in the days of Abraham.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."

Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible
 

beameup

New member
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel (Jacob) has to be the one true God because He who keeps Israel never slumbers nor sleeps.

But Jews will tell you that THE MESSIAH never showed up when He was supposed to.
Perhaps God was on vacation? Or maybe He forgot? Or He was taking a nap?
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

God says: ""And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Gen 26:4-5

So according to the Holy Torah, Abraham observed the laws of God.
____________________________________________________________________________

Abram was an idol worshipping pagan from Ur of the Chaldees, who obeyed the Code of Hammurabi (which originated in Chaldea/Shinar/Mesopotamia).

BTW, "The 10 Commandments" are posted everywhere where I am located. So, its obvious that non-Jews are very "obedient" to "the Law".

NoaHide Laws? That is a fabrication of Maimonides in the 12th Century AD. Aren't you supposed to be "a light unto the Gentiles". If so, you have had 2,000 years to spread knowledge of your NoaHide Laws, and nobody has ever even heard of NoaHide Laws.
 

Elia

Well-known member
But Jews will tell you that THE MESSIAH never showed up when He was supposed to.
Perhaps God was on vacation? Or maybe He forgot? Or He was taking a nap?

Bs"d

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the messiah is going to be God, or divine.


The messiah is going to totally 100% human, not God, not the son of God, not divine, not born of a virgin, but a human being, born from the normal union of man and wife.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."

Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible
 

Elia

Well-known member
____________________________________________________________________________

Abram was an idol worshipping pagan from Ur of the Chaldees, who obeyed the Code of Hammurabi (which originated in Chaldea/Shinar/Mesopotamia).

Bs"d

I answered this already, but you seem to be a bit slow to understand. No problem, I'll repeat it for you:

God says: ""And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Gen 26:4-5

So according to the Holy Torah, Abraham observed the laws of God.

Now unless you want to say that Hammurabi was God, and that therefore the laws of Hammurabi were God's laws, Abraham did NOT follow Hammurabi's laws.

So we see here that the Noachide laws, the laws given by God to Noach when making the covenant with him, were in effect in the days of Abraham.

BTW, "The 10 Commandments" are posted everywhere where I am located. So, its obvious that non-Jews are very "obedient" to "the Law".

Posting them is not the same as observing them. Just take the very first commandment; that already the Christians cannot live by:

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2

Do the Christians worship and serve Y-H-W-H? NO!!

They worship a dead carpenter.

Another one from the 10 commandments: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God"

Don't the Christians make statues? The RC churches are full of 'm.

Another one: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work:"

Any Christian that doesn't work on the Shabbat? No, they threw the Shabbat commandment overboard, and replaced it with resting on Sunday, something that is NOWHERE to be found in Scripture.

Anybody wants to say that Christians observe the 10 commandments??


"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination."

Prov 28:9
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
So according to the Holy Torah, Abraham observed the laws of God.

What "laws"? What "commandments" The "10 Commandments" didn't exist in the time of Abram.
Perhaps YHWH gave Abraham a specific set of instructions (ie: commandments-laws) that we have no record of...

And YHWH appeared unto Abraham in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, Gen 18:1-2 ||
And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. Gen 18:16 || And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before YHWH. || And Abraham drew near, and said [to YHWH], Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Gen 18:23 || And YHWH went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

So we see here that the Noachide laws, the laws given by God to Noach when making the covenant with him, were in effect in the days of Abraham.

NoaHide Laws??? This Jewish teaching didn't even appear in Judaism until Maimonides in the 12th Century AD. What about all those Gentiles that lived from the 1st to the 12th century? What "laws" were Gentiles supposedly under?
 

Elia

Well-known member
What "laws"? What "commandments" The "10 Commandments" didn't exist in the time of Abram.
Perhaps YHWH gave Abraham a specific set of instructions (ie: commandments-laws) that we have no record of...

Bs"d

Or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about. That is the much more likely option.

Clearly God gave Abraham laws, because God says that Abraham kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, and that is a bit difficult if God didn't give him laws.

NoaHide Laws??? This Jewish teaching didn't even appear in Judaism until Maimonides in the 12th Century AD. What about all those Gentiles that lived from the 1st to the 12th century? What "laws" were Gentiles supposedly under?

Yes, it is now official, you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. The Noachide laws, that is the laws which were incorporated into the covenant that God made with Noach, they are mentioned in the Talmud, which is written almost a 1000 years before Maimonides.

And those are the laws which are binding for the Gentiles.

"But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."

Ecc 12:12-14, New American Standard Bible
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
Clearly God gave Abraham laws, because God says that Abraham kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, and that is a bit difficult if God didn't give him laws.
Yes, God gave Abraham laws, it's just that we don't know specifically what they were. It could have been a very brief set of laws for all we know.

The Noachide laws, that is the laws which were incorporated into the covenant that God made with Noach, they are mentioned in the Talmud
And those are the laws which are binding for the Gentiles.
Now there's your problem. There is no record of them until the middle-ages and then they are in the Talmud. The Talmud was created post-70 AD in order to reformulate Judaism following the destruction of the Temple. It's about the size of a set of encyclopedias and not commonly available.

I guess on a positive side, there are a growing number of Hebraic Roots Congregations and Messianic Congregations. In these a lot can be learned about Judaism and proper observances and Feasts, etc. and observing the Sabbath. I've been studying them for a few month and find it quite interesting.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Yes, God gave Abraham laws, it's just that we don't know specifically what they were. It could have been a very brief set of laws for all we know.

Bs"d

That is not "for all we know", that is "for all YOU know".

And it really is very simple to understand, that when the Noachide laws are written in the Talmud, almost 2000 years ago, then they did not pop up only in the middle-ages.

Take your time and think a bit about that. Then you too can understand that.

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”

Joshua 24:14-15
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
the Noachide laws are written in the Talmud, almost 2000 years ago, then they did not pop up only in the middle-ages.
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I find little or no information on these NoHide Laws.
The Talmud was written as a result of the destruction
of the Temple in 70AD in a desperate attempt to save Judaism by "recreating" it.
I find no NoHide Laws in the Tanakh. It's not mentioned in Scripture.

The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated are:
1.Do not deny God.
2.Do not blaspheme God.
3.Do not murder.
4.Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
5.Do not steal.
6.Do not eat of a live animal.
7.Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law

The Jewish scholar Maimonides (12th century) held that Gentiles may have a part in the world to come just by observing Noahide law and accepts them as given by Moses[no proof of course]. Maimonides wants to emphasis that a truly Righteous Gentile follows the seven laws because they are divinely revealed [no proof of course] and thus are followed out of obedience to God.
Of course, there is absolutely no proof of these NoaHide Laws being divinely revealed.
 

Ben Masada

New member
The evidence is found in the facts concerning the Abrahamic Covenant. Israel has outlived all of her enemies and will out live the rest of them (Russia next to die).

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel (Jacob) has to be the one true God because He who keeps Israel never slumbers nor sleeps.

Wonderful post Intojoy! Just don't say "Russia next to die" but Russia next to go. Why? Because "to die", we all will; Russia or not.
 

Ben Masada

New member
What "Law" would that be, not putting your milk in a "milk refrigerator"? :rotfl:

All laws, God's Law, the law of the land and the law of cause & effect. And about your joke above about the "milk refrigerator" it is just a fence around the commandment not to cook an animal in its mother's milk. But that command is just for us. You don't worry for we will never teach it to the Gentiles.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Bs'd

But then we're back again at religion being an accident of birth.

But then the question is: Who's law? The sharia? The Christian "law" who threw all laws overboard?
Self made up laws?

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of our God for ever and ever." Micah 4:5

I don't take Judaism as a religion but as a way of life.
Now, as the Law is concerned, Torah Law, in our case.
 

beameup

New member
All laws, God's Law, the law of the land and the law of cause & effect. And about your joke above about the "milk refrigerator" it is just a fence around the commandment not to cook an animal in its mother's milk. But that command is just for us. You don't worry for we will never teach it to the Gentiles.

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; Isa 42:6
Can you tell us of the efforts of Jews to "be a light unto the Gentiles" during the last 2,000 years?
Exactly, what are the characteristics of this "light" that you are spreading?

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isa 49:6
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

What we see here, is that, except for Intojoy, nobody can give any rational argument why they think that their holy books are inspired by God.

They say they "believe" in the NT. And when asked why they don't believe in the Quran, the silence is deafening.

So we can conclude that their religion is an accident of birth; they are born in a predominantly Christian country, therefore they are Christians.

If they would have been born in Arabia, they would have been Muslims.

Intojoy says:

The evidence is found in the facts concerning the Abrahamic Covenant. Israel has outlived all of her enemies and will out live the rest of them (Russia next to die).

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel (Jacob) has to be the one true God because He who keeps Israel never slumbers nor sleeps.

And he has a good point there. Many great thinkers noticed that:

Over the past two hundred years thinkers have pondered the metaphysics of Jewish survival.

They appear to marvel at this phenomenon. For example, Leo Tolstoy in his “What is the Jew?” wrote: (9)

“What is the Jew? This is not as strange a question as it would first appear to be. Come let us contemplate what kind of unique creature is this whom all the rulers and all the nations of the world have disgraced and crushed and expelled and destroyed; persecuted, burned and drowned, and who, despite their anger and their fury, continues to live and flourish. What is this Jew, whom they have never succeeded in enticing with all the enticements in the world, whose oppressors and persecutors only suggested that he deny [and disown] his religion and cast aside the faithfulness of his ancestors?!

The Jew is the symbol of eternity. He is the one they were never able to destroy, neither
bloodbath nor afflictions, neither fire nor the sword succeeded in annihilating him. He is the one who for so long has guarded the prophetic message and transmitted it to all mankind. A people such as this can never disappear. The Jew is eternal. He is the embodiment of eternity.”

In his book “The Ancient World” Professor T.R. Glover similarly wrote: (10)

“No ancient people had a history stranger than the Jews..... The history of no ancient people
should be so valuable, if we could only recover it and understand it.... Stranger still, the ancient religion of the Jews survives, when all the religions of every ancient race of the pre*Christian world have disappeared. Again, it is strange that the living religions of the world all build on the religious ideas derived from the Jews..... This then is the problem offered by the Jews to the historian. The great matter is not “What happened?” but “Why did it happen?” Why does this race continue? Why does Judaism live? How did it really begin? Why did it come out so?”

Professor Nicholas Berdkilaev, of the Moscow Academy of Spiritual Culture, in his book “The
Meaning of History” commented thus: (11)

“The Jews have played an all*important role in history. They are pre*eminently a historical people and their destiny reflects indestructibility..... their destiny is to imbued with the metaphysical to be explained either in material or positive*historical terms. I remember how the materialist interpretation of history, when I attempted in my youth to verify it by applying to it the destinies of people, broke down in the case of the Jews, where destiny seemed absolutely inexplicable from the materialistic standpoint. And, indeed, according to the materialistic and positivist criterion, this people ought to have perished long ago. Its survival is a mysterious and wonderful phenomenon demonstrating that the life of this people is governed by a special predetermination, transcending the process of adaptation expounded by the materialistic interpretation of history. The survival of the Jews, their resistance to destruction, their endurance under absolute peculiar conditions and the fatefull role played by them in history, all these points point to the particular and mysterious foundations of their destiny.”

The eighteenth*century Talmudic scholar, Rabbi Jonathan Eibeschutz, commented: (12)

“Will the atheist not be embarrassed when he reflects on Jewish history? We, an exiled people, scattered sheep from antiquity, have endured brutal persecution over thousands of years. There is no nation or people as persued as we. Many and powerfull are those who aspired to totally destroy us, but they never prevailed. How will the wise philosopher respond? Is this extraordinary phenomenon truly by chance?”

Dr Isaac Breuer wrote: (13)

“The “People of the Book” among the nations is the most fantastic miracle of all, and the history of this people is literally one of miracles. And one who sees this ancient people today, after thousands of years among the nations of the world, when he reads the Scriptures and finds that they prophetically relate clearly and simply the ever*transpiring Jewish phenomenon, and does not fall on his face and exclaim: “God, the Lord of Israel, He is God”, then no other miracle will help him. For, in truth, this individual has no heart to understand, no eye to discern, and no ear to hear.”

The French author Jon DeBileda, during the latter part of the ninetheenth century, (i.e. before the Russian Revolution, nazi Germany, and the modern Jewish state) described the situation thusly:

(14)

“In essence, the Jewish People chuckle at all forms of anti*Semitism. Think all you want, and you will not be able to find one form of brutality or strategy that has not been used in warfare against the Jewish People. 'I cannot be defeated', says Judaism. All that you attempt to do to me today has been attempted 3,200 years ago in Egypt. Then tried the Babylonians and Persians. Afterward tried the Romans, and then others and others..... There is no question that the Jews will outlive us all. This is an eternal people..... They cannot be defeated, understand this! Every war with them is a vain waste of time and manpower. Conversely, it is wise to sign a mutual covenant with them. How trustworthy and profitable they are as allies. Look at their patriotism, their commercial benefit, and their ambition and their success in science, the arts, and politics. Be their friend and they will pay you back in friendship one*hundred*fold. This is an exalted and chosen people.”

A more modern*day example of the Jewish people survival mechanism was interestingly described in the secular Israeli newspaper “Maariv” (April 17, 1983) concerning the Jewish State's War of Independence in 1948: (15)

“Is this how things really happened? Just as they are told in the history books? And 650,000 Jews who escaped from the horrors of the Second World War and from the cruel struggle with the oppressive British – did they really build up this whole infantry on their own efforts? Six hundred and fifty thousand who created a nation*state from emptiness and desolation? And they stood in bitter warfare against the organized armies of five Arab countries? Five percent of the Jewish people, and not only did they strike a blow against every enemy that stood up against them, but absorbed hundreds of thousands of refugees from the remnants of European and Middle East Jewry. By all logic, and by all human reason, everything that happened in 1948 is in the category of the impossible. It was impossible with the limited arms that the Jews possessed, with the rudimentary international support they managed to gather, with the limited resources that were available to them, to do all that they did. To bring a system of public services in operation from nothing. To establish a military industry from its beginning. To sustain supplies and minimal services, and to run a war that had no clear delineated front or rear lines, no organized lines of defense, no organized reserves of ammunition, and no expert commanders to lead its battalions!”

(above quotes are from the book "The Anti-Jewish Phenomenon", by rabbi dr Allswang)

This is the sign that God has put in the Jewish people.

For more about the sign of God in the Jewish people, look HERE.


"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 8:23
 
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