Hindu Prayer Interrupted in US Senate

[Balder]

No, because the founders, who gave thanks to God for our rights, put the freedom to be a pagan in the very first one.

Maybe you should rethink your use of the word, "crime," then. If you said it was religiously offensive to you, I'd accept that. But it wasn't a "crime."

Now think for a second:

Dad gave me a fresh baked apple pie, I'm going to go thank the pagan down the street for it on behalf of my entire household. Make sense to you?

That's your religious belief. But our country is not a "Christian Evangelical" nation.

The Founders appealed to God in a general way, using a broad term which they understood was acceptable to both Deists and Christian theists. The Treaty of Tripoli makes it clear that neither Washington nor Adams thought the country was founded exclusively on the Christian religion. So, why would it be a crime for someone to give thanks to the Being whom THEY believe granted them life and freedom (through the agency of free men in this case inspired by the European Enlightenment as well as the Bible and other sources)?

 

[Granite]

Sorry, not buying it. Whenever the video was posted where Operation Save America was praying and the two pagan protesters were heckling you lacked any out-rage in your comments against them because it was Christians being attacked.

Correct me if my memory is bad, but I believe you had no outrage then, so it is not a question of what you will do, but of what you have already shown.



I'm not convinced that Hindu prayer necessary deserves respect, but apparently what you mean by pluralistic society is that I must adopt your belief that it does.

I have no idea what you're talking about--this is the first time I've ever heard of Operation Save America.

A pluralistic society would ideally treat religions with equality and respect, something this gentleman was denied by a pack of xenophobes.

 

[Granite]

Well... then we need to ignore the Declaration which was us telling the king we were pulling out... followed by the Constitution.

Here is a little for you to know, or ignore... whichever suits your purpose of the day:




No other nation on this planet offers such freedoms. When the majority feel like you do, granite, and the authority of our freedoms is completely ignored, you will have the nation you so desire to have. For those who seem to revel in the anarchy we already have, just wait, it will get "better".

What you ignore is that the Declaration (written by a deist, as though we need a reminder) was vague, not explicit in its Christianity, and remains an ambivalent document at best in terms of the specific religion (if any) that it's grounded in. If you knew more about the author there'd never be any confusion at all about the Declaration's contents. In any event, we go right back to your sense of entitlement.

I don't want "anarchy," Nineveh, and I have no idea where you got that bizarre idea.

 

[Damian]

Hindu Prayer Interrupted in US Senate

I came across this video while surfing on YouTube. I don't think any kind of prayer or religious practice (regardless of the religion) should be permitted in the Senate or Congress or any governmental office.

 

[Nineveh]

... So, why would it be a crime for someone to give thanks to the Being whom THEY believe granted them life and freedom...

I guess I need to say it again... The Mayflower beat the hindus here.

 

[Damian]

While sincerity is a virtue, it is possible to be sincerely wrong and to put your faith in a belief or in someone that cannot save the soul. In effect, you can be worshipping or have faith in idols (false gods).

Agreed.

There are not many paths to God; there is only one.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

This depends on how you define "paths."

Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christianity does not have a lock on the truth.

 

[Balder]

I guess I need to say it again... The Mayflower beat the hindus here.

That's irrelevant.

 

[Damian]

Or just get rid of the prayers alltogether.

Agreed.

 

[Nineveh]

What you ignore is that the Declaration (written by a deist, as though we need a reminder) was vague, not explicit in its Christianity, and remains an ambivalent document at best in terms of the specific religion (if any) that it's grounded in. If you knew more about the author there'd never be any confusion at all about the Declaration's contents. In any event, we go right back to your sense of entitlement.

Golly... I guess we need to scratch all that Creator and Nature's God stuff out. And ignore to what religion these men themselves claimed to subscribe. Granite, you aren't going to change US History. The best you can hope to do ignore it and support others in their ignorance of it.

I don't want "anarchy," Nineveh, and I have no idea where you got that bizarre idea.

Then you shouldn't take offense at a generalized statement.

 

[Damian]

I found a vid out on the net on this topic. I read some of the comments left. It appears most of the commenters forgot a few things. Firstly, that the men who founded this nation gave glory to a specific God who granted the rights we have, and the deity wasn't from the hindu pantheon. Secondly, that the "freedom of religion" isn't the only right in the 1st amendment, there is also a freedom of speech. And lastly, that no one was forcing any sort of religion on this hindu fellow. He is free to be a pagan if he likes.

It appears pagans like to forget it's "Christianity" that has allowed the freedom to be a pagan they now enjoy.

I think you have your facts wrong. The "specific God" to whom you are referencing (I am assuming your are basing your argument on the U.S. Declaration of Independence ) is the deist God. Thomas Jefferson who is the chief writer of the document was a deist, not a Christian.

During the presidential campaign of 1800, the Federalists attacked Jefferson as an infidel, claiming that Jefferson's intoxication with the religious and political extremism of the French Revolution disqualified him from public office. But Jefferson wrote at length on religion and many scholars agree with the claim that Jefferson was a deist, a common position held by intellectuals in the late 18th century, at least for much of his life. (source: Wikipedia "Thomas Jefferson")

 

[Nineveh]

That's irrelevant.

You asked, "...So, why would it be a crime for someone to give thanks to the Being whom THEY believe granted them life and freedom..."

Because that isn't Who granted our rights. No matter what you personally want to believe. That's awfully selfish, especially when you force the entire Senate to take part. Yes, it's a "crime" to offer thanksgiving to the wrong deity, and it's a "crime" to be so ignorant of US History. If you wanna offer your thanks to a pagan idol and expect the nation to stand behind you, then meditate real real hard on changing the reality of history and pray that the hindus beat the Christians here.

 

[Granite]

Golly... I guess we need to scratch all that Creator and Nature's God stuff out. And ignore to what religion these men themselves claimed to subscribe. Granite, you aren't going to change US History. The best you can hope to do ignore it and support others in their ignorance of it.



Then you shouldn't take offense at a generalized statement.

I don't hope or want or intended to try to change our past, Nineveh, but it's frustrating when folks like you don't understand it as well as you should. Once again: this misplaced Christian sense of self-entitlement consistently colors your understanding of American history.

 

[Balder]

You asked, "...So, why would it be a crime for someone to give thanks to the Being whom THEY believe granted them life and freedom..."

Because that isn't Who granted our rights. No matter what you personally want to believe. That's awfully selfish, especially when you force the entire Senate to take part. Yes, it's a "crime" to offer thanksgiving to the wrong deity, and it's a "crime" to be so ignorant of US History. If you wanna offer your thanks to a pagan idol and expect the nation to stand behind you, then meditate real real hard on changing the reality of history and pray that the hindus beat the Christians here.

The last I checked, crimes are defined by the Constitution and the laws of our country, not by the beliefs of evangelicals.

I challenge you to show me which laws were broken when the Hindu prayed before the Senate.

Otherwise, accept the fact that you do not live in a theocracy and stop speaking as though you do.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
It's even sadder when people think that "freedom of religion" means "for me but not for anyone else."

ah, especially when 70% claim a Deity but it appears didn't get a vote when a pagan is asked to pray for them and their nation in their capitol to a minority idol.

Religious freedom is not subject to minority approval. For which you should be very, very, grateful, Nineveh.

sounds pretty bigoted to me.

The notion that everyone has a right to religious freedom sounds bigoted to bigots. Fortunately, this is America, so you lose. I see you decided to actually read our founding documents. Nothing at all about Christianity, um? Surprise. They didn't put it in, because they didn't base America on Christianity.

The true crime was having a pagan open the US Senate. But you can't even see where the founders stood on religion yet. So we will have to save this until you educate yourself.

Well, since you missed it...

"the United States is in no sense based on the Christian religion".

From Article XI, treaty with Tripoli, negotiated by George Washington, signed by president John Adams, and ratified by the Senate of the United States. The Senate was largely composed of veterans and statesmen of the American Revolution. They didn't merely know the intent of the founders. They were the founders.

Barbarian observes:
Um, no. Go and look at all the documents. Not a one mentions Christianity or Jesus. In fact, the founders specifically stated that the United States was not based on Christianity.

Nature and Nature's God.

Right. Nothing at all about Christianity. Nothing about Jesus. Surprised? Thinking for yourself would be a good start. There's a lot more you "know" that's not so.

Nineveh, why not just admit that there are parts of Christianity and American values you don't like? It galls you that people you don't like have religious freedom as much as you do.

Get used to it, or find another place to live.

 

[The Barbarian]

Prayer in Congress as an official act is probably illegal, but is considered de minimus and therefore not worth bothering with.

But there is a deeper truth here; in a nation with religious freedom, if you let a minister pray in Congress, you are opening the door to all faiths.

As is abundantly demonstrated here, those who want to establish religion want the right to suppress the religions they don't like.

 

[Nineveh]

I think you have your facts wrong. The "specific God" to whom you are referencing (I am assuming your are basing your argument on the U.S. Declaration of Independence ) is the deist God. Thomas Jefferson who is the chief writer of the document was a deist, not a Christian.

Do you even have any clue how many men signed the DI? Do you have a clue (beyond the pagan's poster child of Jefferson) to what religion each confessed?

Here is a little quiz for you:

__________ men signed the DI. Here are their confessed religions, can you tell me how many of each there were?

Congregationalist?
Episcopalian?
Presbyterian?
Catholic?
Anglican?
Church of England?
None/Other?
Deist?

Who were the deists? Of the deist, how many (if any) changed their religion later in life? If any, what were their names?

 

[Nineveh]

I don't hope or want or intended to try to change our past, Nineveh, but it's frustrating when folks like you don't understand it as well as you should. Once again: this misplaced Christian sense of self-entitlement consistently colors your understanding of American history.

Don't project, Granite

 

[Granite]

Do you even have any clue how many men signed the DI? Do you have a clue (beyond the pagan's poster child of Jefferson) to what religion each confessed?

Here is a little quiz for you:

__________ men signed the DI. Here are their confessed religions, can you tell me how many of each there were?

Congregationalist?
Episcopalian?
Presbyterian?
Catholic?
Anglican?
Church of England?
None/Other?
Deist?

Who were the deists? Of the deist, how many (if any) changed their religion later in life? If any, what were their names?

This proves nothing as Washington, for an example, was a member of an Episcopalian congregation, refused communion, and was privately a deist. Membership in a Christian church proves just that: your membership. I'm surprised, Nineveh, that you of all people are using this kind of argument.

 

[The Barbarian]

And yet, all these Christians, firm believers in Jesus, some of whom declared a belief in God to be essential to a just society, did not want America to be based on Christianity. And pointedly said so in an official document.

How could this be? Because they saw what the results of that kind of thinking were in Europe, and they wanted no part of it.

If you really want to understand, Nineveh, go read Madison's "Against Religious Assessments", and Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. These are the words of the Founders. You may agree or not with the Founders, but you can at least avoid misrepresenting what they thought and wrote.

 

[Nineveh]

The last I checked, crimes are defined by the Constitution and the laws of our country, not by the beliefs of evangelicals.

I challenge you to show me which laws were broken when the Hindu prayed before the Senate.

Mea culpa. When I first said "crime" I shoulda put it in "'s. I keep forgetting how literal pagans can be when they lose an argument.

Instead of continuing to act as if I have claimed we have ever had a theocracy, how about you attempt to answer my question? How is it sane to thank the wrong person for a grand gift?