Hello from a UK Athiest

[Krsto]

Hi Rob,

Shame your a southerner but we cant have everything

Theres a few brits on here.

On the politics were going to be in similar places I guess, but on the religion we may be able to get into it, but we are coming from different palces

Anyway have fun, but please don't think this forum is representative of Christians , its representative of the weird and the wonderful.

Jon

I noticed how you put weird first. Very apropos. Wait, what am I doing here?

 

[Krsto]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

Welcome aboard. You are from a place in England that has good weather I hear. Jolly good.

You want (physical) proof of existence for a spiritual being. I think you've already started on the wrong foot.

Why not back up and take another run at this? Try meeting God on his terms, not yours.

 

[TheTB]

Hi.

Hi.

Hi,

Welcome aboard. You are from a place in England that has good weather I hear. Jolly good.

Thank you. The weather varies but is generally a bit warmer and lighter in the south than the north.

You want (physical) proof of existence for a spiritual being. I think you've already started on the wrong foot.

Or perhaps exactly the right foot!

Why not back up and take another run at this? Try meeting God on his terms, not yours.

Logically, my terms must be his terms IF he created me.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Logically, my terms must be his terms IF he created me.

Not true. God created you with free will. You are free to create your own terms that are not the same as God's terms.

 

[TheTB]

Not true. God created you with free will. You are free to create your own terms that are not the same as God's terms.

He gave me free will, so I could specify my own terms. But wont accept me on any of my terms, rather he dictates that I must meet him only on his terms. In which case why bother with the freewill?

My only choice is to accept his terms or not. If I accept his terms everything is lovely and if I don't? what, burn in hell? This sounds like a ruthless dictatorship to me! Is God a ruthless dictator? In reality he does not give me a choice. So is he also a control freak?

If I specify my terms are also immovable, will he negotiate? Can we compromise and find an agreement do you think? Or is he rigid and inflexible?

Robert.

 

[xAvarice]

I think you just supported Lon's point. Yes, the proper conclusion is that the unbeliever was never one of Allah's children.

Of course, but it's just a way to obfuscate them saying they were Christian. Who cares what they were, they feel they were wrong. Whether they are or were delusional.

Your post itself alludes to you not really wanting the God of the bible to be anything accurate, and you arent thrilled with the idea of heaven, and then give your own description of how you think it should be.

Does that sound like someone who wants the truth at any cost?

As worrying as that sounds, it'd be far more painful for me to reject the truth than delude myself into something that isn't true or credible.

 

[CabinetMaker]

He gave me free will, so I could specify my own terms. But wont accept me on any of my terms, rather he dictates that I must meet him only on his terms. In which case why bother with the freewill?

My only choice is to accept his terms or not. If I accept his terms everything is lovely and if I don't? what, burn in hell? This sounds like a ruthless dictatorship to me! Is God a ruthless dictator? In reality he does not give me a choice. So is he also a control freak?

If I specify my terms are also immovable, will he negotiate? Can we compromise and find an agreement do you think? Or is he rigid and inflexible?

Robert.

There are a great many things in life that require you to accept somebody elses terms that you have no control over. Say your terms for opening a checking account require the bank to give you complete access to all the funds available in the bank and that your terms are absolute and immovable. Will the bank negotiate? Should they? Book any travel lately? Ever look at the T&C's that accompany the airplane ticket you bought? T&C's that you agreed to when you bought the ticket.

Why should God negotiate with you? What, exactly, bothers you about the terms God offers?

 

[Krsto]

He gave me free will, so I could specify my own terms. But wont accept me on any of my terms, rather he dictates that I must meet him only on his terms. In which case why bother with the freewill?

My only choice is to accept his terms or not. If I accept his terms everything is lovely and if I don't? what, burn in hell? This sounds like a ruthless dictatorship to me! Is God a ruthless dictator? In reality he does not give me a choice. So is he also a control freak?

If I specify my terms are also immovable, will he negotiate? Can we compromise and find an agreement do you think? Or is he rigid and inflexible?

Robert.

If those were the terms I'd be inclined to agree with you.

 

[TheTB]

There are a great many things in life that require you to accept somebody elses terms that you have no control over. Say your terms for opening a checking account require the bank to give you complete access to all the funds available in the bank and that your terms are absolute and immovable. Will the bank negotiate? Should they? Book any travel lately? Ever look at the T&C's that accompany the airplane ticket you bought? T&C's that you agreed to when you bought the ticket.

If I don't like the banks terms, I go to another bank and find one I am happy with. Ultimately I don't have to have a bank account at all! And I don't have to fly.

Why should God negotiate with you?

Why indeed? It certainly makes no difference to me one way or another. It's his loss as far as I am concerned. Does he want another follower or not?

What, exactly, bothers you about the terms God offers?

I just don't like being dictated to. If he wants my support he's got to earn it.

 

[Krsto]

There are a great many things in life that require you to accept somebody elses terms that you have no control over. Say your terms for opening a checking account require the bank to give you complete access to all the funds available in the bank and that your terms are absolute and immovable. Will the bank negotiate? Should they? Book any travel lately? Ever look at the T&C's that accompany the airplane ticket you bought? T&C's that you agreed to when you bought the ticket.

Why should God negotiate with you? What, exactly, bothers you about the terms God offers?

I think he pretty well explained it. "Turn or burn" is a rather bothersome proposition coming from those who also say "God is love." Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Yorzhik]

Define reasonable. I like to converse. I do of course have a strong bias, I cannot deny this.

It's just a suspicion which I've just demonstrated I can be wrong about. We'll see.

Ooooohhhh don't tempt me there is plenty more where that came from.

That's the problem. I'm sure there are many other passages you can cite that don't support your point.

Also, I've also got my own list of passages that I don't understand. Here's one: "Exodus 28:30, Also put the Urim and the Thummin in the breastpiece, so they may be over Aaron’s heart whenever he enters the presence of the Lord. Thus Aaron will always bear the means of making decisions for the Israelites over his heart before the Lord." If you asked me how the Urim and Thummin worked, I couldn't guess. But one thing is for sure, direct consulting with God is the only way for a theocracy to exist.

Acknowledged. There are a lot of good teachings in the bible along with all the murder, rape, enslavement, etc.

That's part of what gives it an hue of truth. The actions of the people written about were not varnished. They murdered (king David) and raped (an Israelite prince) and enslaved (Joseph's brothers). If the book had been written by the very people it talked about, they would have made themselves look better.

I don't know where you are getting your information from here? 4.5 billion years is a very very very very very (you get the idea, lots of very's) long time for things to happen. And many Christians totally accept and agree that evolution by natural selection is fact.

And they would, scientifically, be wrong.

No. I try not to assume too much. I don't know you. I don't know your background. My experience of most religious people is that they are generally the indoctrinated product of their parent or social group in which they were brought up.

So I am more likely to consider that a religious person is entirely rational to believe what their loving parents have taught them.

So let me tell you why I believe in God and you tell me if it is irrational. The bible is consistent with reality, predictive, and historically accurate. It also people's actions in a way that shows the writer understood human nature. This, by reason, would indicate that its claim of being the word of God is accurate. And there are other reasons as well, like science being consistent with God. And God is the only justification for the existence of logic.

You'd have to agree: God exists or He doesn't.

The difficulty is how to square the accident of your birth with the real world outside that sphere of faith. When someone has spent their whole lives being brainwashed to believe a particular thing, their mind may simply not be freeable.

Every Muslim child 'knows' absolutely that Allah is the one and only true god and the Qu'ran is his infallible word. Similar can be said about devout Christian, Hindu's etc.

These people are absolutely sincere in their belief's. I find the position they find themselves in completely rational given their backgrounds. Misguided, ill-informed, brainwashed and indoctrinated maybe, but not irrational.

But I don't know you personally so I can't say whether you are a rational person or not.

So how do you determine who has a free mind and who has been turned into a robot?

But I am happy to get to know you.

Cheers
Robert

Likewise.

 

[Yorzhik]

He gave me free will, so I could specify my own terms. But wont accept me on any of my terms, rather he dictates that I must meet him only on his terms. In which case why bother with the freewill?

My only choice is to accept his terms or not. If I accept his terms everything is lovely and if I don't? what, burn in hell? This sounds like a ruthless dictatorship to me! Is God a ruthless dictator? In reality he does not give me a choice. So is he also a control freak?

If I specify my terms are also immovable, will he negotiate? Can we compromise and find an agreement do you think? Or is he rigid and inflexible?

Robert.

How about any friendship. Do you think there are terms and conditions required to be friends with someone? If you are friends with someone, you'd be agreeing to those terms and conditions. So does that mean your friends are control freaks?

 

[Spectrox War]

Explain this scenario to me:

Unbeliever - I was once God's child :up:
Christian - How is this possible since you don't think He exists?
Unbeliever - I was mistaken back then, not now.
Christian - Then how does it make sense that you 'were' God's child?
Unbeliever - Because I was once with God's other children ,with them.
Christian - But you don't believe they are God's children either. You couldn't have been one of God's children.
Unbeliever - Do NOT tell me I wasn't once one of God's Children!
Christian - I am VERY confused.

There’s your problem right there in the opening premise.
The structure of your argument has validity but the opening premise lacks soundness. And so the argument that follows is meaningless.
To those not trained in logic and linguistics, it’s a common mistake. I am only a fumbling beginner, having studied deductive logic for only a couple of years on and off. And it’s really tough. But I know enough to spot a flaw in the argument. Christians on this site need to quit their amateur simplistic logical contrivances. And some of the brighter Christians on this site should know better – their attempts come across as profoundly disingenuous.

The flaw is in the phrase “I was once God’s child.”

What does it really mean if we’re not even sure that this God exists? That’s why Merriam & Webster use the intransitive verb to describe “trust in God” because the intransitive verb does not point to an object.

I don't recall an atheist using the phrase “I was once God’s child”on the thread in question. I've certainly never used it. Besides if an atheist did use this phrase, they are speaking only figuratively and mixing up their tenses in terms of where they were then and where they are now. That's what they felt at the time. But they realised they were wrong. They made a mistake and then fessed up to that mistake.

As I’ve stated numerous times, the whole thing is a pointless argument.
As an ex-christian, I could never demonstrate to you that I worshipped the same God as you. Neither can a Christian honestly say “You were never one of us.”

When I was a christian I felt purified, sanctified and saved. I read and studied the Bible every day. I believed. I had faith in the words I read. I reached out to people in need, which was something I hadn’t done before. I don't know what else I was supposed to have felt or done?

After a while I realised I was the source of all this. And I realised the Bible was flawed and imperfect. It was God in man’s image at the time. Not the other way round.

If I "got it wrong" and didn't go about things in the right way, then explain to me the precise mechanism, backed up with Biblical evidence, for the entire process of becoming a christian and knowing that you are saved - from start to finish.

 

[IMJerusha]

Hi,

If I'm honest I have to say I have no compelling desire to make contact with god. I don't feel any need to connect with god or indeed any compelling reason to consider that a god may exist. Indeed quite the opposite. Everything life has shown me thus far indicates that there is no god nor any good reason to believe that there is one.

Sorry to take so long to get back to you here. I forgot to put in a subscription for this thread. Anyway, you must have some desire or you would not have studied religions and you would not be here. I don't know too many people who do things just to be doing something. There's usually some motivation behind the things people do. Regardless, life is not a bowl of cherries Rob and God never promised it would be. I gather you've had some very tough times.

Example: Fritzel. God, if he exists could have stopped this evil at any time. Instead these poor women suffered rape and imprisonment for 20 odd years.

Example: Burmah. Murder, rape, brutalisation on a massive scale going on every day.

Example: Cancer. Millions of people dying slow painful deaths.

I could go on and on and on.

Yup, so? Child abuse, rape, one abortion, three miscarriages, murdered parents. And yet...here I am. There's people here that have gone through much worse and some who haven't. The intent of evil is to turn us away from God. I have no intention of letting it. I've been given a gift and I appreciate it. Yeah, there's times when I'd like to cash in my chips and there, but for the grace of God, would go I. But, too, I don't want to just live and die and that's it. I want more of the good that is in the gift of life and that includes what comes after this earthly life.

None of things are necessary. A divine caring god could stop these things . Yet they continue day after day.

Oh, you don't understand. We have a divine, caring God but we turned our backs on Him. Evil got its foothold in our lives so the world is stuck with it. God's not responsible for our actions, we are.

I can imagine anything I want, it might even feel good, but that doesn't make it real.

That's correct but I would have to ask you if you have given God the opportunity to meet you by providing Him the one thing He has asked you for?...that one small step of faith.

Also why do I have to go to him? Why doesn't he come to me? Perhaps he doesn't like me. I don't want to go back to being a child. I've been there, done that, i grew up and I like who I am.

Because, He asked us to. If you think about it, what does God need with us? He created everything, has unlimited power and knowledge. What can we do for Him except simply believe?...seek a relationship with Him. If you don't want to, don't. It's your choice. Just understand that there are always consequences for the choices we make. Newton was blessed with keen insight into God. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

And i am very happy with how i see the world and interpret it. if god wants me he will have to come to as I am. If that's not good enough for him then my life is no worse for it.

Well, not to be rude and I do not seriously mean to be, but you are lying to yourself. You're not happy at all or you would be content/accepting of Fritzel, Burmah and Cancer.

Well, okay. So what are you here for if you have learned all there is to learn about God and those who believe in Him? You've made your decision and now you want others to join you in that decision? That does seem to be the only possible rationale.

I'm here waiting for him. My door is always open and if he comes in for a chat ill let you know.

The fact is you can't be waiting for what you don't believe in. That's why there is a need for you to take the first step. You have apparently already taken the first step and perhaps many others but are wounded. That, God can deal with and it would be my pleasure to be of service to Him in that endeavor.

 

[gcthomas]

And they would, scientifically, be wrong.

Still pretending you have science on your side, I see. Funny how the scientists disagree with you.

Still desperately hanging on to Haldane's outdated and superseded approximations?

Time to get a science update to your understanding and get with the last few decades of developments.

 

[TheTB]

Friends

Friends

How about any friendship. Do you think there are terms and conditions required to be friends with someone? If you are friends with someone, you'd be agreeing to those terms and conditions. So does that mean your friends are control freaks?

The point is you can negotiate terms of friendships. I have close friends, good friends and not so good friends. Although we don't sit down and write out the contract, we negotiate our terms through our actions such that both parties are satisfied with the ongoing relationship.

Some of them are control freaks though. But not for this reason.

 

[Lon]

I noticed how you put weird first. Very apropos. Wait, what am doing here?

Shotgun! I call dibs on "Wonderful" first!

 

[Lon]

There’s your problem right there in the opening premise...

Moved reply to this appropriate thread, Thanks.

 

[Krsto]

So theTB, is your issue with lack of evidence or with what Christians believe? Isn't your conception of what Christians believe the reason you have such a high threshold for what you would consider acceptable evidence for God's existence? What is the real issue here?

 

[Yorzhik]

Still pretending you have science on your side, I see. Funny how the scientists disagree with you.

Still desperately hanging on to Haldane's outdated and superseded approximations?

Time to get a science update to your understanding and get with the last few decades of developments.

No need to pretend, I've the facts on my side.

And please note, you don't even know what Haldane's dilemma is. Quit spouting off about that which you are too lazy to learn about.