Hello from a UK Athiest

[TheTB]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

 

[Tambora]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

Welcome to TOL.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

Glad to hear you will abide by the rules here.

But no one here is required to "prove" anything to you.

 

[TheTB]

Proof?

Proof?

Welcome to TOL.

But no one here is required to "prove" anything to you.

Hi Tambora,

Thank you for replying to me.

I imagine we both know that it is not possible to provide proof of god. If proof existed it would not be called faith. Faith being a belief in something despite the lack of evidence for it. Indeed for the religious, faith in spite of the lack of evidence is essential.

What I find more interesting is what leads a person to believe in anything when there is no tangible evidence for it.

For example, I do not believe in fairies. Lots of people do. But as far as I can see there is no evidence for the existence of fairies and no reason to consider that such things exist. Hence I do not believe in them. But I am intrigued and astonished to understand why anyone then would believe in fairies.

For me the same then can be said for god, Allah, Jehovah, thor, Ra, Apollo, Neptune, Wotan, Sheba, or any other deity.

So this is really where my interest lies.

Many thanks

Robert.

 

[Tehmill]

You are a pal of Alwight.....[might BE Alwight in disguise ]

Hi.

When you say you find faith an alien concept that's right...that is what everybody says so you are just a ordinary Joe. Even the majority of folks who claim to believe, yet the way they act shows that faith is an alien concept to them...so it is.

Faith is higher knowledge, spiritual truth, it is a gift from God given on an individual basis, if God does not GIVE you faith you won't have it. God gives faith through the gospel.

 

[This Charming Manc]

Hi Rob,

Shame your a southerner but we cant have everything

Theres a few brits on here.

On the politics were going to be in similar places I guess, but on the religion we may be able to get into it, but we are coming from different palces

Anyway have fun, but please don't think this forum is representative of Christians , its representative of the weird and the wonderful.

Jon

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

 

[TheTB]

Higher knowledge and spiritual truth?

Higher knowledge and spiritual truth?

You are a pal of Alwight.....[might BE Alwight in disguise ]

No, definitely not Alwight in disguise. Would be interested to meet him/her though.

Hi.

When you say you find faith an alien concept that's right...that is what everybody says so you are just a ordinary Joe.

[agreed. ]

Even the majority of folks who claim to believe, yet the way they act shows that faith is an alien concept to them...so it is.

[agreed also. ]

Faith is higher knowledge, spiritual truth, it is a gift from God given on an individual basis, if God does not GIVE you faith you won't have it. God gives faith through the gospel.

[definitely bypassed me then! But what is this higher knowledge? Does it include cures for cancer, details of micro electronics, or maybe renewable energy resources? Or perhaps how to survive deep space flight to enable interstellar colonisation.

Surely truth is truth? Something is either true or it isn't? How is spiritual truth different from any other truth? These are such curious ideas.

If I take LSD and see 20ft daisies and liquorice all sort cars etc. These things are as real to me as they can be. But of course these are not real. They are just my perception of reality at the time and I choose to delude myself if claim these things were real.

The fact is nothing tangible is demonstrable or provable about faith in god. It is just a persons choice to believe what they prefer to believe. It is not possible for you demonstrate this "higher knowledge" or great spiritual truth.... Is it?

Just because it feels good, it doesn't mean it's true.

Regards

Robert

 

[Rusha]

Welcome to TOL, Rob!

 

[This Charming Manc]

OK so we are heading straight in the deep end

The argument that you have presented is very much based on the twin philosophies of naturalism and rationalism. Which create the basis of modern science and underpin a 'modern' world view.

However they are very limited and I don't think relevant when considering questions about the spiritual.

Naturalism suggests only things that we can measure and quantity are true.

Rationalism suggests that only things we can rationalise and logically deduce are true.

However as a complete view of all truth I believe these philosophies are fatally flawed.

As they limit truth by the limitations of our ability to observe and measure and how we can logically deduce.

As we know that as humans we cannot measure all of reality and we our minds and limited and we cannot rationalise all things. So to limit truth to our ability would seem somewhat limited.

Was electricity not true till we discovered the voltmeter?
Was Newtonian physics true until Einstein developed his theory?

I am not arguing against these philosophies are useless, they have there place in science, but to try and understand all of reality with such limited tools seems foolish to me.

Surely truth is truth? Something is either true or it isn't? How is spiritual truth different from any other truth? These are such curious ideas.

If I take LSD and see 20ft daisies and liquorice all sort cars etc. These things are as real to me as they can be. But of course these are not real. They are just my perception of reality at the time and I choose to delude myself if claim these things were real.

The fact is nothing tangible is demonstrable or provable about faith in god. It is just a persons choice to believe what they prefer to believe. It is not possible for you demonstrate this "higher knowledge" or great spiritual truth.... Is it?

Just because it feels good, it doesn't mean it's true.

Regards

Robert

 

[xAvarice]

Shame your a southerner but we cant have everything

You just insulted all the southern Americans too, beautifully done.

Theres a few brits on here.

:freak: WHERE?

 

[xAvarice]

As we know that as humans we cannot measure all of reality and we our minds and limited and we cannot rationalise all things. So to limit truth to our ability would seem somewhat limited.

Was electricity not true till we discovered the voltmeter?
Was Newtonian physics true until Einstein developed his theory?

I am not arguing against these philosophies are useless, they have there place in science, but to try and understand all of reality with such limited tools seems foolish to me.

If people thought lightning was magic... it was still magic they could see.

 

[Letsargue]

Surely truth is truth? Something is either true or it isn't? How is spiritual truth different from any other truth? These are such curious ideas.

If I take LSD and see 20ft daisies and liquorice all sort cars etc. These things are as real to me as they can be. But of course these are not real. They are just my perception of reality at the time and I choose to delude myself if claim these things were real.

The fact is nothing tangible is demonstrable or provable about faith in god. It is just a persons choice to believe what they prefer to believe. It is not possible for you demonstrate this "higher knowledge" or great spiritual truth.... Is it?

Just because it feels good, it doesn't mean it's true.

Regards

Robert

That’s where all these guys; - so called “?christian”, take the wrong turn from “God / Christ”. – Their doctrine of -“TRUTH” is passed to the rest of the World / YOU. – However, “Truth” and “True” (( Are two different things ))!! “TRUTH” doesn’t have to be ( “TRUE” ) in the Carnal / “CARNAL” Sense!!, - but is “Truth” in God just ( Because God Said IT it’s “Truth” ). - Just because God said it makes it “TRUTH”, but maybe not TRUE according to ALL Carnal Evidence and Law. – Jesus walked on water, --- No, - Not really, - because Jesus is just a Parable anyhow, He is Truth, He said so. There can be No evidence that Jesus ever existed, or like you said, or He cannot be FAITH, - But because God says IT, therefore, That’s Truth.- Jesus DID Walk on water in “Truth” / In God He did, - but not according to all Laws of the Physical.

It takes a real fool to think that the creation was all created in 6 days as carnal days are. In God’s Mind, in God, God created all things in 6 days. --- Truly the Creation only exists (( ONE Time )) / God. It has really, always been where it is, and is who created it / Him. He or It, has no beginning or end, it can’t have. ( if it is, then it has always been everywhere ), there is no end, - in size, or time; - that’s God, in my mind!! --- It was asked, ( “What is Truth” ) in the Scriptures, But NEVER Answered in the Carnal, but does, in the Spiritual.

Have fun with these guys, I don’t!!

Paul – 051413

 

[This Charming Manc]

You just insulted all the southern Americans too, beautifully done.

id eventually insult them for being american anyway

:freak: WHERE?

 

[Sherman]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

Welcome to TOL. Keep the debate civil and abide by the rules here and you'll get along fine. Please read and review them. They keep you out of trouble.

 

[Sherman]

Hi Tambora,

Thank you for replying to me.

I imagine we both know that it is not possible to provide proof of god. If proof existed it would not be called faith. Faith being a belief in something despite the lack of evidence for it. Indeed for the religious, faith in spite of the lack of evidence is essential.

What I find more interesting is what leads a person to believe in anything when there is no tangible evidence for it.

For example, I do not believe in fairies. Lots of people do. But as far as I can see there is no evidence for the existence of fairies and no reason to consider that such things exist. Hence I do not believe in them. But I am intrigued and astonished to understand why anyone then would believe in fairies.

For me the same then can be said for god, Allah, Jehovah, thor, Ra, Apollo, Neptune, Wotan, Sheba, or any other deity.

So this is really where my interest lies.

Many thanks

Robert.

Comparing God to fairies is going to get you into trouble here on TOL. My advice is avoid it. Christians don't believe in fairies either.

 

[fool]

We already have someone from the isle of Wight.
Would you consider moving?

 

[Tambora]

I imagine we both know that it is not possible to provide proof of god.

Imagine whatever you want to.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Welcome new Atheist. When you truely want proof of God, you will get all you can handle.

A better question is, if you got proof, and just didnt like God, or His ways, would it change you at all?

 

[PureX]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

Welcome, Robert.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

When we drive around in our automobiles, we have no way of knowing that the people operating the other vehicles will abide by the traffic laws, and behave as we expect them to behave. And if they do not, we may be injured or killed if we dare to drive around in traffic. And yet we need to get here and there, so we must trust that those other drivers will obey the traffic laws, as we will, and we'll all be able get where we need to go, safely.

Thus, we must have faith in those other drivers. And we must have faith in our assessment of how they will behave. Because without that faith, we wouldn't logically be willing to risk our lives by driving around in dangerous, high-speed motor vehicles.

This is what faith is: trusting in the unknown, and then acting on that trust. And this is something that you do all the time, I'm sure. So that the question is not should you or shouldn't you have "faith". The question is what are you placing your faith in, and why? In this case, the question is; should you place you faith in the idea of the existence of "God", or not?

If you would like to discuss that question, I'd be happy to oblige. If not, that's OK, too. I am not an "evangelist".

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

Glad to have you here!

 

[Town Heretic]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

Hello Robert and welcome. :e4e:

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

A good place to start is the whole "feel the need" business. It implies a weakness instead of a recognition. That is, instead of presuming invention and crutch credit the next fellow with at least the chance for a different foundation.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

A healthy view/approach. You don't have to be Disreali to hold a conversation around here.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists

I'd say it's reasonable depending on what standard of proof you apply. For instance, if you can't set out a standard by which the question of God could be objectively settled a request for proof is form without substance. And if you try to measure sunlight with a ruler you have another sort of problem.

...I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

Why? You believe you exist as an independent, rational entity. Prove it. You likely believe in logic. Prove its veracity without going circular on me. Faith is everywhere. The only question is of kind and application.h

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

And vice versa.

Thanks for having me on board.

:cheers:

 

[alwight]

You are a pal of Alwight.....[might BE Alwight in disguise ]

Maybe the Isle of Wight isn't such a hotbed of right wing Christian fundamentalists?
No, I am only alwight here on TOL

Hi there TheTB, I live in Totland Bay btw, whatever you do don't refer to Jesus as "Jebus" or blaspheme. :nono:
Knight is the big cheese around here who does tolerate non-believers, grudgingly.
Al :e4e: