Hello from a UK Athiest

[Yorzhik]

The point is you can negotiate terms of friendships. I have close friends, good friends and not so good friends. Although we don't sit down and write out the contract, we negotiate our terms through our actions such that both parties are satisfied with the ongoing relationship.

So why the vitriol against God? [edit: You infer He could be a control freak without reason.] What you've described here is no different than a relationship with God. And if you don't like the friendship terms that are with God, which are rather general and normal, then you are free to not be friends. Please note though, when you aren't friends with someone who is nice, reasonable, funny, smart, and willing to be friendly with you... you need to consider if it's a 'you' problem.

Some of them are control freaks though. But not for this reason.

So quit accusing God of being a control freak.

Edit: You inferred God could be a control freak. So I shouldn't accuse of saying it directly. I guess it is just a matter of noting that such an accusation would be unwarranted.

 

[alwight]

So quit accusing God of being a control freak.

Actually he isn't imo, atheists don't believe gods exist, but the Christian belief of a particular God seems to be arguably about a control freak and afaic it is fair comment to say so.
The real God just might be getting a raw deal from Christians.

 

[Yorzhik]

Actually he isn't imo, atheists don't believe gods exist, but the Christian belief of a particular God seems to be arguably about a control freak and afaic it is fair comment to say so.
The real God just might be getting a raw deal from Christians.

You are correct. I was wrong to say he said God was a control freak.

Now, you otoh do accuse God of being a control freak (as described by Christians). But you would be wise to read the source material instead of the Christians who misrepresent Him. But you won't be wise because you prefer to accuse God of being a control freak.

 

[alwight]

You are correct. I was wrong to say he said God was a control freak.

Now, you otoh do accuse God of being a control freak (as described by Christians). But you would be wise to read the source material instead of the Christians who misrepresent Him. But you won't be wise because you prefer to accuse God of being a control freak.

I might well suggest that yours or even the general Christian belief was about a control freak type of God and clearly the OT God is just that imo. I can't logically or honestly claim to know anything about any real god or its personality whether controlling or not since I have no belief or knowledge that there is such a being.

 

[IMJerusha]

I might well suggest that yours or even the general Christian belief was about a control freak type of God and clearly the OT God is just that imo. I can't logically or honestly claim to know anything about any real god or its personality whether controlling or not since I have no belief or knowledge that there is such a being.

The OT God? Huh?

 

[Yorzhik]

I might well suggest that yours or even the general Christian belief was about a control freak type of God and clearly the OT God is just that imo. I can't logically or honestly claim to know anything about any real god or its personality whether controlling or not since I have no belief or knowledge that there is such a being.

Good job. You proved my point.

 

[alwight]

Good job. You proved my point.

You had a point?

 

[IMJerusha]

You had a point?

It might have had something to do with becoming familiar enough with Scripture for the purpose of learning that the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. Your source material is a little off, for lack of a better way to put it.

 

[TheTB]

All of it!

All of it!

So theTB, is your issue with lack of evidence or with what Christians believe? Isn't your conception of what Christians believe the reason you have such a high threshold for what you would consider acceptable evidence for God's existence? What is the real issue here?

I would broaden the scope a little. My issue is with all faith based religious practice. I am totally against the indoctrination of children into any religious belief system, be it Muslim, Christian or whatever. To me this amounts to mental enslavement.

The fact is nobody could ever produce any evidence for the existence of god because there is none. Sure people have 'experiences' in the emotional sense but this is not in any way proof of anything.

I do believe that religions should be taught as part of the history of mankind and each should be given equal curriculum time under the subject of history and not in any way prescribed as fact.

If a child, given equal unbiased exposure to all religious belief systems is allowed then as an adult to make up their own mind then I also believe in most cases a rational sensible person will conclude that religious faith was useful to our ancestors as a means of defining principles for life and as their best explanation for how the world came to be the way it is. But that there is no reason to consider that any faith has any more validity than any other and there is indeed no requirement given our understanding of the universe to require the existence of a supernatural being.

So I would like to see and end to all religious dogma and people living out full happy honest lives in the real world.

Robert

 

[alwight]

It might have had something to do with becoming familiar enough with Scripture for the purpose of learning that the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. Your source material is a little off, for lack of a better way to put it.

Clearly I already do assume it is the same supposed God since Christianity retains the OT as part of its doctrine. But as a non-believer non-extant gods being the same deity or not is for me pointless to suppose. I note however the cherry picking of the OT as it suits, Christians perhaps, claiming a new covenant allows them to (say) work on the Sabbath, eat shellfish or wear mixed weave cloth etc, all baloney imho.
Is the Jewish Yahweh really the Christian's God? I wonder what a Messianic Jew's views are here or is that perhaps a pointless notion for you too?

 

[IMJerusha]

Clearly I already do assume it is the same supposed God since Christianity retains the OT as part of its doctrine. But as a non-believer non-extant gods being the same deity or not is for me pointless to suppose. I note however the cherry picking of the OT as it suits, Christians perhaps, claiming a new covenant allows them to (say) work on the Sabbath, eat shellfish or wear mixed weave cloth etc, all baloney imho.
Is the Jewish Yahweh really the Christian's God? I wonder what a Messianic Jew's views are here or is that perhaps a pointless notion for you too?

Not so clearly or I wouldn't have questioned.
I'm happy to answer your questions in a more appropriate place. I'm concerned that our discussion would be a total derail of the purpose of this thread. Name the place and we'll get down to conversing or I could make a thread for the purpose. What say you?

 

[Krsto]

I would broaden the scope a little. My issue is with all faith based religious practice. I am totally against the indoctrination of children into any religious belief system, be it Muslim, Christian or whatever. To me this amounts to mental enslavement.

The fact is nobody could ever produce any evidence for the existence of god because there is none. Sure people have 'experiences' in the emotional sense but this is not in any way proof of anything.

I do believe that religions should be taught as part of the history of mankind and each should be given equal curriculum time under the subject of history and not in any way prescribed as fact.

If a child, given equal unbiased exposure to all religious belief systems is allowed then as an adult to make up their own mind then I also believe in most cases a rational sensible person will conclude that religious faith was useful to our ancestors as a means of defining principles for life and as their best explanation for how the world came to be the way it is. But that there is no reason to consider that any faith has any more validity than any other and there is indeed no requirement given our understanding of the universe to require the existence of a supernatural being.

So I would like to see and end to all religious dogma and people living out full happy honest lives in the real world.

Robert

I know I don't represent the majority of Christians when I say this but I can show it to be what the bible teaches. I believe God is happy to allow to happen what you already believe will happen when you die and that is you will merely cease to be. When you're dead, you're dead. End of story. What the bible preaches is that God is offering a gift to those who accept it. If you don't accept it, you get what you believe you are going to get. I can't promise you won't go before God in judgement but if you're end is death then that's what you get. I high threshold of evidence for his existence is not necessary because the stakes are not as high as they would be if your end for not accepting the free gift of God is eternal suffering. If that were the end for non-Christians I would tend to agree with atheists who demand better evidence.

If we strip away all the eternal suffering nonsense that was created by the Catholic Church and which the Protestants seem unwilling to critically examine then these scriptures become a beautiful invitation from God:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

If those were the only bits of the Gospel that you ever heard and you weren't privy to all the nonsense Christians come up with based on their interpretations of a rather complex document, and I didn't teach my kids all that nonsense, don't you think we would be doing our kids a disservice in not sharing this with them? It couldn't do them any harm, could it?

 

[Kit Fisto]

Hello everyone,

I am Robert from the Isle of Wight in the UK. A small island of the south coast of England.

I am an Athiest and have a keen interest in honest, rational discussion of religion, and why people feel the need for a god or gods.

I am not a particularly skilled debator so I tend not to try as I lack the literary skills to properly defend my views. However I am interested to engage in honest and open discussion on religion and religious views.

As a person who considers proof to be a reasonable requirement before I am satisfied that something exists or is correct I find the whole concept of faith to be completely alien to me.

I will endeavour to abide by the rules of the forums and would delight in engaging with anyone who feels they would like to discuss their beliefs with someone who may challenge them.

Thanks for having me on board.

Robert.

Welcome, I have a Who live album from the Isle of Wight. Good album.

 

[alwight]

Not so clearly or I wouldn't have questioned.
I'm happy to answer your questions in a more appropriate place. I'm concerned that our discussion would be a total derail of the purpose of this thread. Name the place and we'll get down to conversing or I could make a thread for the purpose. What say you?

By all means start a thread, however I don't think I have much to bring to the table myself other than my own perhaps more sceptical opinions of course, on what others might suppose is true. Propose something for me to doubt or be convinced by and I'll be there.

 

[George Affleck]

If you could present me with undeniable proof as above then I certainly would be delighted to consider it. The problem is that once you have proof, you remove the need for faith. So the whole doctrine would break down. In respect I think we can never meet as undeniable proof for the existence of god does not exist.

However, when I read passages like judges 21:21-24, which appears to blatantly encourage murder and rape, or Numbers 31:7-18, or maybe Deuteronomy 20:10-14, I would have to seriously consider if indeed I would want to follow such a being.

These passages condone rape and murder of men, women and children and inflicted suffering. The list goes on and on
Deuteronomy 22:23-24, stoning a man and a woman to death as punishment for having sexual relations. Tis would apply if the woman had been raped. She would still be stoned to death!

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 - rape of war prisoner. Entirely permitted it would seem.

Oh yes, I would definitely have to think long and hard about whether to follow him or not.

Hi,
Welcome to TOL.

May I ask what it is about rape, murder, inflicted suffering and stoning that is wrong?

And can you tell me how you came to this conclusion or on what basis you feel you have the authority to make this judgement?

 

[Letsargue]

Surely truth is truth? Something is either true or it isn't? How is spiritual truth different from any other truth? These are such curious ideas.

If I take LSD and see 20ft daisies and liquorice all sort cars etc. These things are as real to me as they can be. But of course these are not real. They are just my perception of reality at the time and I choose to delude myself if claim these things were real.

The fact is nothing tangible is demonstrable or provable about faith in god. It is just a persons choice to believe what they prefer to believe. It is not possible for you demonstrate this "higher knowledge" or great spiritual truth.... Is it?

Just because it feels good, it doesn't mean it's true.

Regards

Robert

Wooow!! -- You are Sharp!!! – ( “Truth” ), is what GOD Said!! – And something that is ( “True” ), is what “Nature” Says!! --- Boy!; - just like all the rest!!!

Paul – 070313

 

[False Prophet]

I see you met the in crowd!

 

[CabinetMaker]

First off, Welcome!

Hi Tambora,

Thank you for replying to me.

I imagine we both know that it is not possible to provide proof of god. If proof existed it would not be called faith. Faith being a belief in something despite the lack of evidence for it. Indeed for the religious, faith in spite of the lack of evidence is essential.

What I find more interesting is what leads a person to believe in anything when there is no tangible evidence for it.

For example, I do not believe in fairies. Lots of people do. But as far as I can see there is no evidence for the existence of fairies and no reason to consider that such things exist. Hence I do not believe in them. But I am intrigued and astonished to understand why anyone then would believe in fairies.

For me the same then can be said for god, Allah, Jehovah, thor, Ra, Apollo, Neptune, Wotan, Sheba, or any other deity.

So this is really where my interest lies.

Many thanks

Robert.

Short answer for the highlighted passage: Faith is a gift from God. God leads us.