ECT Heaven, when do we go there?

[Cross Reference]

Concerning all who die prior to Christ's return, the Bible teaches that at the moment of death the human spirit (soul) departs its body to one of two possible destinations: Heaven or Hades (Luke 16:19-31; Phil. 1:19-26; James 2:26; Rev. 6:9, 20:4). Those who reach Heaven do so based not upon their own good works, but upon the work of Christ in their behalf—His righteous life and atoning death—and upon their God-given faith in Him (Mark 10: 45; John 1:12, 3:16; Rom. 3:21; Eph. 2:8-10).

The saints in Heaven (Abraham’s bosom)—fully aware of their surroundings and delighted by its manifold blessings per their walk of faith (Heb. 12:22-24)—eagerly await their Lord's return at the end of the age, when Our Lord will consummate their redemption by raising them from the dead with new, glorified, resurrection bodies just as He now possesses, and by creating for them a glorious new world in which they will forever live together with Him (Luke 20:27-40, John 5:28, 1 Cor. 15, Phil. 3:20-21; 2 Pet. 3:13).

Those who enter Hades (Sheol in Hebrew) do so based upon their own evil works, especially upon the evil work of suppressing the truth that God made known to them through nature, the Law, and the Gospel, the Gospel being God's only provision for the forgiveness of sin and the acquisition of eternal life (John 3:19,36: John 5:29; Acts 13:46, Rom. 2:8; 2 Thess. 1:8; Rev. 20:12).

In Hades the lost are in the torments of eternal punishment, deprived of God's every life-giving blessing, conscious of God's abiding wrath, and subject to the positive pains of divine retribution all according to their particular sins. Also, to the extent that they may be aware of it, the lost are tormented in this intermediate state of prison by anticipation of the Resurrection and the Day of Judgment, when Christ will send them—body and soul—into Gehenna (Hell), the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt. 8:29, Mt. 10:28, 25: 41; Mark 9:48, Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:14) where they will remain forever afterwards suffering unending punishment.

AMR

I believe you are confused. Abraham's bosom/the abode of the righteous dead/paradise was that part of the grave-sheol, where Jesus descended to "set the captives free". It never became heaven until after that event; that point in time. Why? Because Abraham couldn't enter heaven until set free by Jesus, his own righteousness not being able to accomplish that. Perhaps you might like to explain how it can be you don't know that bit of common scriptural knowledge?

OMT: How come you also don't know that the soul of man and his spirit are two different parts of his three part make up?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I believe you are confused.

No, I am not. Others may be, however.

OMT: How come you also don't know that the soul of man and his spirit are two different parts of his three part make up?

Trichotomy is the slippery slope to all manner of heresy. :AMR:

View attachment 24816

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

where Jesus descended to "set the captives free".

The descent is symbolic, pointing to Christ's suffering at Gethsemane and the cross.

The Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 44. Why is there added, "he descended into hell"?

Answer. That in my greatest temptations, I may be assured, and wholly comfort myself in this, that my Lord Jesus Christ, by his inexpressible anguish, pains, terrors, and hellish agonies, in which he was plunged during all his sufferings, but especially on the cross, hath delivered me from the anguish and torments of hell.


The grave was a punishment for Our Lord; it is not a punishment for believers. In going to the grave He took control of the keys of the grave (of hell and of death), that He might make it a door of deliverance for His people out of this world and a door of entrance into glory. So the nature of the grave has been changed for believers by Christ.

There is a soul-body unity, such that it is impossible to speak of the effects of death touching the body without also reaching the soul. A soul under the power of death is one in which it is stripped of its material body. Hence the souls of the redeemed are presented as crying out, How long? They have immediately passed into glory, but they are not complete without their bodily element. Therefore, to say that our Lord's soul was in paradise without His body is to declare that His soul likewise suffered the effects of death until the third day. The key point here is to avoid any insinuation that the Lord was consciously present in any place other than paradise.

The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. The soul was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with the body, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.

If Christ had accomplished nothing for believers, it could be said that believers descend into hell in the same sense Christ did. As it stands, though, Christ worked vicariously for believers in His descent into hell. So it would be an improper extension of the clause "descended into Hell" to say that believers descend into hell. The bodies of the saved are united to Christ in the grave—see 1 Cor. 6:12-20, it is spiritual and mystical, yet real and inseparable—and therefore rest as in a bed. The nature of the grave has been transformed. The bodies of the wicked are kept in their grave as in a prison.

Thus,

Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.' "

Some folks try to make "Paradise" into something other than heaven and the blessed presence of God. No, it's heaven. Jesus is not saying Paradise=the grave or some spiritual element to it.

Eph. 4:9 "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

This should not be taken to mean that Christ went down to hell in death (in metaphysical terms) either to suffer more (the cross itself is the place of spiritual abandonment, the terror of hell), or even to tip over Satan on his throne and bust out various prisoners. It is enough (and Biblical) to recognize that this is a reference to the Incarnation through the womb of Mary (see Psalm 139:15) or simply to the basic grave that encloses our Lord (Psalm 63:9). That place is "all the way down" as far as the Incarnation of Our Lord’s Adamic (non-glorified) flesh goes—Our Lord completely identifies with us even unto death. The point of the passage is that the same Lord who came down from heaven returns victorious above.

1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

This does not refer (though some have wrongly interpreted it so) to Christ preaching after his death to entities in hell. But to Christ "in the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) who long before the present day and pending judgment went and preached in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20), in whom was the same Holy Spirit, to sinners—most of whom ignored his message of judgment. And they are now in prison a long time, and will never get out of there. But not because they had no warning; and so neither will sinners today who do not heed similar, even more urgent warnings.

To dig deeper, see:
http://www.intoxicatedonlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Daniel-Hyde.pdf

AMR

 

[DAN P]

No, I am not. Others may be, however.


Trichotomy is the slippery slope to all manner of heresy. :AMR:

View attachment 24816

AMR

Hi and how do you handle 1 Thess 5:23 ?

#1 , PNEUMA = Spirit

#2 , PSYCHE = SOUL

#3 , SOMA = BODY

dan p

 

[Cross Reference]

The descent is symbolic, pointing to Christ's suffering at Gethsemane and the cross.

The Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 44. Why is there added, "he descended into hell"?

Answer. That in my greatest temptations, I may be assured, and wholly comfort myself in this, that my Lord Jesus Christ, by his inexpressible anguish, pains, terrors, and hellish agonies, in which he was plunged during all his sufferings, but especially on the cross, hath delivered me from the anguish and torments of hell.


The grave was a punishment for Our Lord; it is not a punishment for believers. In going to the grave He took control of the keys of the grave (of hell and of death), that He might make it a door of deliverance for His people out of this world and a door of entrance into glory. So the nature of the grave has been changed for believers by Christ.

There is a soul-body unity, such that it is impossible to speak of the effects of death touching the body without also reaching the soul. A soul under the power of death is one in which it is stripped of its material body. Hence the souls of the redeemed are presented as crying out, How long? They have immediately passed into glory, but they are not complete without their bodily element. Therefore, to say that our Lord's soul was in paradise without His body is to declare that His soul likewise suffered the effects of death until the third day. The key point here is to avoid any insinuation that the Lord was consciously present in any place other than paradise.

The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. The soul was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with the body, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.

If Christ had accomplished nothing for believers, it could be said that believers descend into hell in the same sense Christ did. As it stands, though, Christ worked vicariously for believers in His descent into hell. So it would be an improper extension of the clause "descended into Hell" to say that believers descend into hell. The bodies of the saved are united to Christ in the grave—see 1 Cor. 6:12-20, it is spiritual and mystical, yet real and inseparable—and therefore rest as in a bed. The nature of the grave has been transformed. The bodies of the wicked are kept in their grave as in a prison.

Thus,

Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.' "

Some folks try to make "Paradise" into something other than heaven and the blessed presence of God. No, it's heaven. Jesus is not saying Paradise=the grave or some spiritual element to it.

Eph. 4:9 "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

This should not be taken to mean that Christ went down to hell in death (in metaphysical terms) either to suffer more (the cross itself is the place of spiritual abandonment, the terror of hell), or even to tip over Satan on his throne and bust out various prisoners. It is enough (and Biblical) to recognize that this is a reference to the Incarnation through the womb of Mary (see Psalm 139:15) or simply to the basic grave that encloses our Lord (Psalm 63:9). That place is "all the way down" as far as the Incarnation of Our Lord’s Adamic (non-glorified) flesh goes—Our Lord completely identifies with us even unto death. The point of the passage is that the same Lord who came down from heaven returns victorious above.

1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

This does not refer (though some have wrongly interpreted it so) to Christ preaching after his death to entities in hell. But to Christ "in the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18) who long before the present day and pending judgment went and preached in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20), in whom was the same Holy Spirit, to sinners—most of whom ignored his message of judgment. And they are now in prison a long time, and will never get out of there. But not because they had no warning; and so neither will sinners today who do not heed similar, even more urgent warnings.

To dig deeper, see:
http://www.intoxicatedonlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Daniel-Hyde.pdf

AMR

Where'd you get that nonsense?? You write as one who knows ALL and in who there is no error of judgment. I have news for you bunk, You have more stuff with you than a Christmas turkey and who cares about what Hidelberg has to say. Dig deeper, my ars. You need to learn to accept the scriptures as written. I have NEVER read such fabled theory thinking in all my life nor have I ever heard anyone come forth with such distortion of what is so easily understood. Whose feeding you this bildge? Ken Copeland!!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Hi and how do you handle 1 Thess 5:23 ?

#1 , PNEUMA = Spirit

#2 , PSYCHE = SOUL

#3 , SOMA = BODY

dan p

The answers are given in the linked content within my post, no? After all, I assume the usual "yea, but..." objections to be raised by the trichotomous proponent.

When dealing specifically with man's dichotomous body and soul nature, spirit and soul are synonymously used in Scripture.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Where'd you get that nonsense?? You have more stuff with you than a Christmas turkey and who cares about what Hidelberg has to say. Dig deeper, my ars.

Creeds and confessions are good summaries of Scripture's teachings until they can be proven otherwise, especially those that have withstood the tests of time and examination by the communion of saints. Your objections are not new, but have been answered time and again by the church militant which was being obedient to Scripture in confessing the sound patterns of Scripture, per Paul's admonishments to the same.

Why not try to refrain from asking me direct questions to which you think you already have an answer if it is injurious to your emotions such that you are led into sin? :AMR:

Just Me and My Bible. Sigh.

AMR

 

[DAN P]

The answers are given in the linked content within my post, no? After all, I assume the usual "yea, but..." objections to be raised by the trichotomous proponent.

When dealing specifically with man's dichotomous body and soul nature, spirit and soul are synonymously used in Scripture.

AMR

Hi and sorry but I do NOT read links and I like 1 Thess 5:23 !!

Since I have you here . who was the New Covenant given to and WHEN will it be put into oeration ??

dan p

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Hi and sorry but I do NOT read links and I like 1 Thess 5:23 !!

dan p

Clicking and reading on TOL or the world wide web, notwithstanding, of course. :AMR:

Methinks you are protesting a wee too much self-righteously and contrary to Scripture's teachings that we are to take every word captive for the glory of God such that you have a worthy defense of that which you hold dear.

AMR

 

[DAN P]

Clicking and reading on TOL or the world wide web, notwithstanding, of course. :AMR:

Methinks you are protesting a wee too much self-righteously and contrary to Scripture's teachings that we are to take every word captive for the glory of God such that you have a worthy defense of that which you hold dear.

AMR

Hi and you write good and better than me and ar least I have AN answer !!

I do not know you , since I have been here a short time so many in time you will answer and I have a better feeling as to where you MIGHT stand , even those your one post seemed dispensational YOU ARE NOT !!

I was not PROTESTING and just wanting to now how you stand , NOT GOOD !!



DAN P

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

...least I have AN answer !!

So do many more than yourself....

View attachment 24817

Try not to assume you alone have it all correct until you consider what others also indwelled by the Spirit may have to say. Who knows? You may even learn something new.

AMR

 

[Cross Reference]

Creeds and confessions are good summaries of Scripture's teachings until they can be proven otherwise, especially those that have withstood the tests of time and examination by the communion of saints. Your objections are not new, but have been answered time and again by the church militant which was being obedient to Scripture in confessing the sound patterns of Scripture, per Paul's admonishments to the same.

Why not try to refrain from asking me direct questions to which you think you already have an answer if it is injurious to your emotions such that you are led into sin? :AMR:

Just Me and My Bible. Sigh.

AMR

Balderdash! You need a great awakening!

 

[Danoh]

So do many more than yourself....

View attachment 24817

Try not to assume you alone have it all correct until you consider what others also indwelled by the Spirit may have to say. Who knows? You may even learn something new.

AMR

Trichotomy (three fold cut).

Now there's a word after STP's heart

 

[Cross Reference]

Creeds and confessions are good summaries of Scripture's teachings until they can be proven otherwise, especially those that have withstood the tests of time and examination by the communion of saints. Your objections are not new, but have been answered time and again by the church militant which was being obedient to Scripture in confessing the sound patterns of Scripture, per Paul's admonishments to the same.

Words. What tests of time?? And how do you suppose you are being obedient to scripture by placing your confidence in them more so than in scriptur. 'Sigh'?

Why not try to refrain from asking me direct questions to which you think you already have an answer if it is injurious to your emotions such that you are led into sin? :AMR:

I asked a sincere question of you only to receive ignorance followed by a sack of your typical self-righteous, regurgitated, creedal puke.

You should try a little of, "Just me and my Bible 'Sigh'". You just might learn something. Sigh.

Just Me and My Bible. Sigh.

AMR

Consider yourself . . . "Refrained"! . . . . Sigh!

 

[Right Divider]

Why are we allowing the collective personality to dictate the interpretation of the Bible instead of finding out the meaning for ourselves? I feel you are attacking me instead of contributing something useful because you really don't have anything useful to contribute.

Every one of your posts is a steaming pile of man-made philosophical dung.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Every one of your posts is a steaming pile of man-made philosophical dung.

Are you going to say something to back that up?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Right Divider]

Are you going to say something to back that up?

Your vain babbling devoid of scriptural content speaks for itself.

 

[Cross Reference]

No, I am not. Others may be, however.


Trichotomy is the slippery slope to all manner of heresy. :AMR:

View attachment 24816

AMR

You should take that to your heart, mister.

Question: Who raised you in the way you have taken to yourself as being the "way"? I doubt you have the guts to name your source mentor. Why? because they are a 'fringe" bunch not acceptable to even the general Christian community.

 

[DAN P]

So do many more than yourself....

View attachment 24817

Try not to assume you alone have it all correct until you consider what others also indwelled by the Spirit may have to say. Who knows? You may even learn something new.

AMR

Hi and then you will not answer whether the New Covenant is for GENTILES or tell me How you were saved ??

I can do that easy , what about you ??

dan p

 

[Right Divider]

So do many more than yourself....

View attachment 24817

Try not to assume you alone have it all correct until you consider what others also indwelled by the Spirit may have to say. Who knows? You may even learn something new.

AMR

You claim that "spirit" and "soul" are used synonymously in scripture and yet 1 Thess 5:23 clearly shows them as distinct using "and" between them.

How do you explain that?