SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Another day, another error for LA.
ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Another day, another error for LA.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The quote of Isaiah in Rom 11 is historical. It is not a prediction for now. That Israel was and is being filled up by the believers who are Gentiles. Things to not 'go back' to the ethne Israel once that happens. That is simply saying that's when time ends and the NHNE comes.
There is no question that Israel and the church are two entities, but the question more directly is whether God runs two programs; he does not. It shows nowhere in the NT. Or Paul had amnesia when he wrote Ephesians which was the widest copied NT document at first.
So D'ism has successfully repeated its view of Rom 11:26 a million times until people can't hear what is really being said. It is Goebbelian communication.
And anyway, if you save all the Jews at the end, how does that save the millions before you get there? All is not really all then, is it?
'Saved' is never a Davidic theocracy in Judea in Romans. It is the package that includes justification, transformation in this life and future glorification. The new 'Israel' will all be saved in that sense and many of them will be gentiles.
That is elementary.
Like Rom 3:3, chs 9-11 show that there has always been a blindness in Israel that qualifies it as an ethne. The ethne was never all 'of faith.' It has been where God worked very specifically compared to other nations, but never do we get the idea, from the examples of chs 9-11, that being Jewish is automatically disbelief-proof. There always has been and always will be the partial blindness of the ethne. To the end of time.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that and you know it.
You had no answer to the post of mine which you quoted so instead of admitting it you misrepresented my position
Christian Zionism can be seen to be a Marxist type dialectic argument against the meaning of these New Testament scriptures: John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 17-20, II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 27-29, Galatians 4: 24-26, and Hebrews 10: 9
But Christian Zionists try to ignore and avoid these scriptures. When they do try to interpret them to fit their theology of Old Covenant Israel still being a people of God, they violate basic rules of "hermeneutics", or of interpretation, such as taking a verse or part of a verse out of context, and/or interpreting a text in a way which contradicts other scripture.
For example,saying that James in Acts 15: 16 believed the restoration of the tabernacle of David as seen in Amos 9: 11 was to occur at t\he second appearance of Christ contradicts Acts 15: 7-9 and Acts 15: 14-15, saying James believed the fulfillment of Amos 9: 11 and similar prophecies of the restoration of Israel were fulfilled by God's saving of Non-Jews in the first century (Acts 1o).
Also, the theology assumes as its starting point that certain words, such as Israel, are defined in accordance with the theology, making their system in part self-fulfilling. This applies to their view of Romans 11: 26, where they assume that Israel must always mean Old Covenant Israel.
Christian Zionism is a theology which blocks out an understanding of scriptures which do not fit in which the theology. But the theology raises up and makes outstanding in perception a few scriptures which its followers think support that theology. This is cult-like.
But Christian Zionists try to ignore and avoid these scriptures. When they do try to interpret them to fit their theology of Old Covenant Israel still being a people of God, they violate basic rules of "hermeneutics", or of interpretation, such as taking a verse or part of a verse out of context, and/or interpreting a text in a way which contradicts other scripture.
For example,saying that James in Acts 15: 16 believed the restoration of the tabernacle of David as seen in Amos 9: 11 was to occur at t\he second appearance of Christ contradicts Acts 15: 7-9 and Acts 15: 14-15, saying James believed the fulfillment of Amos 9: 11 and similar prophecies of the restoration of Israel were fulfilled by God's saving of Non-Jews in the first century (Acts 1o).
Also, the theology assumes as its starting point that certain words, such as Israel, are defined in accordance with the theology, making their system in part self-fulfilling. This applies to their view of Romans 11: 26, where they assume that Israel must always mean Old Covenant Israel.
Christian Zionism is a theology which blocks out an understanding of scriptures which do not fit in which the theology. But the theology raises up and makes outstanding in perception a few scriptures which its followers think support that theology. This is cult-like.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look in the OT and there we will see that "all" those of the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be saved and none of them will be Gentiles:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Here we can see that the "fathers" of these who will be in the house of Israel and the house of Judah brokethe covenant. Since their "fathers" were the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that means that those from both houses will also be the same physical seed.
There is no no escaping this fact.
And by what is said in verse 34 it is evident that all these who are the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be saved. They will all know the Lord and they will have their sins forgiven.
Since this prophecy has never been fulfilled then we know that its fulfillment remains in the future. And here Paul places it in the future:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:25-27).
Since you have no place in your eschatology for the fulfillment of this event in the future you just refuse to believe the sure word of God, proving once again that you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say!
beloved57
Well-known member
The physical descendant/seed of Abraham called Israel, are not the children of God, therefore not heirs of any promises Rom 9:8 !
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are a broken record. You are incapable of understanding the truths found in the Bible.
According to what you say those who are the "physical descendant/seed of Abraham" are "not the children of God.
However, as you have been shown many times, Paul was a physical descendant of Abraham and he is a child of God.
You waste my time and the time of all those who are reading your posts.
beloved57
Well-known member
Israel according to the flesh, the natural seed of Abraham, has no more promises from God as does Mexico does!
Mat 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
LA
Rondonmonson
New member
Each Jewish person like each individual Gentile person has always had the ability to overcome unbelief and to become a Christian. So we can't say that God accursed them to hell, it says Israel has been blinded IN PART. Meaning that any that seek God with all his heart can still find God, but the Jewish people in general have rejected God thus Daniels 70 Week Decree/Judgment via God. Israel as a Nation has been blinded, because they rejected God and Jesus their Messiah. BUT....Here is where many misunderstand the ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. Was ALL Israel blinded ? NO, was all Israel evil when they Rejected God ? NO, you had prophets like Daniel, Ezekiel who were servants of God, you then had Disciples who were of God, so you have to get the gist of the saying. ALL ISRAEL will be Saved, doesn't mean every Jewish person will be saved, it means Israel as a Nation will come back to God before the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD !! It doesn't mean evil Jewish men wont make it to hell, there will be many, just like there will be many Gentiles that go to hell. It just means Israel as a Nation returns unto God and accepts Jesus as their Messiah. So just like when God turned his back on Israel, there were Godly men, but as a WHOLE Israel rejected God and His ways. Likewise there will be evil Jews who refuse to serve God, MANY no doubt, but the vast majority, ALL ISRAEL,(as a Nation/Majority rules) will turn to God and Jesus just as Zechariah 12:10 says.
Go read Malachi 4:5-6, Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Day of the LORD comes. Isaiah and Paul are saying Israel as a Nation returns to God and thus their Messiah Jesus. This is why I believe they will be serving/worshiping Jesus in the Temple when the False Prophet places an Image of the Beast in the Temple (Abomination of Desolation)and demands all to worship him or die. THIS IS WHY ISRAEL FLEES TO THE WILDERNESS !! The Church will be in Heaven, Israel will become Christians if you want to call it that, after the Rapture and before the Abomination of Desolation, thus ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED....(as a Nation they accept Jesus as their Messiah) Every person who flees will be protected by God Himself (Eagles Wings). NOT SAVED PER BEING A CHRISTIAN, but SAVED FROM THE BEAST. God will protect them, see Rev. 12. But no doubt, after they come back to God, even the ones who didn't believe, will believe after all the Miracles.
God says in many places He opens their eyes and turns back unto them.
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Ron.
You also believe Gods Israel must be of the one flesh or they can not be Israel.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
LA
You also believe Gods Israel must be of the one flesh or they can not be Israel.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
Sorry I'm not convinced at all. The flow of ch 11 does not go there to something that a few people think is going to happen in a future tribulation (which is not future to us). The expression about all Israel is simply saying that all of those who are Israel in the new (by faith) sense down through time will be justified from their sins. It will accumulate down through time, matching how things were in the OT period, where it was by faith as well.
We already know that the Isaiah quote is historic not our future.
we already know that 'saved' is not a Davidic theocracy; it never is in Romans. Why would it pop in there?
We already know God is done with nations because everything is in or through Christ, 11:30.
Rondonmonson
New member
It is future-tense, and its not even debatable. This is elementary.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why should anyone believe that when the OT Scriptures speak of both the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" that nothing else but those two houses are in view?:
"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:13).
Who do you say is the identity of both the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" in this verse?
And what evidence from the Bible can you give that supports your answer?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course these preterists will debate anything. Even though "the words "all Israel shall be saved" are in the future tense they will argue that at the time when Paul wrote those words it has already happened. They will argue that the land which the Lord gave Jacob is in heaven even though everyone in their right mind knows that land is on the earth.
They are willing to stand reason on its head and they wonder why others are not willing to do the same thing!
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323.
In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")
J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. (page 193,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).
Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says that God remade Old Covenant Israel. Old Covenant Israel was changed into that spiritual house in I Peter 2: 5, of the New Covenant, but it is still Israel.
Hosea 2: 23 says "...and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God, This was begun to be fulfilled in Acts 10. See Ephesians 2: 11-13, saying that non-Jews who were aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel, without Christ and strangers to the Covenants of promise are now made close by the blood of Christ. To what are the Gentiles who believe made close to?
Christian Zionism would have to say they are made close to the Church. But this is not what Ephesians 2: 11-13 is saying. Believing Gentiles are made close to the Commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ.
"11 Wherefore remember that ye being in time passed gentiles in ye flesh and were called uncircumcision to that which are called circumcision in the flesh which circumcision is made by hands:
12 Remember I say that ye were at that time without Christ and were reputed aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and were strangers from the testaments of promise and had no hope and were without God in this world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye which a while ago were far off are made nigh (close) by ye blood of Christ." Ephesians 2: 11-13, Tyndale New Testament
In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The
essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel
and the church." (page 3, "Dispensationalism")
J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church
and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan.
The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. (page 193,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).
Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says that God remade Old Covenant Israel. Old Covenant Israel was changed into that spiritual house in I Peter 2: 5, of the New Covenant, but it is still Israel.
Hosea 2: 23 says "...and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God, This was begun to be fulfilled in Acts 10. See Ephesians 2: 11-13, saying that non-Jews who were aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel, without Christ and strangers to the Covenants of promise are now made close by the blood of Christ. To what are the Gentiles who believe made close to?
Christian Zionism would have to say they are made close to the Church. But this is not what Ephesians 2: 11-13 is saying. Believing Gentiles are made close to the Commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ.
"11 Wherefore remember that ye being in time passed gentiles in ye flesh and were called uncircumcision to that which are called circumcision in the flesh which circumcision is made by hands:
12 Remember I say that ye were at that time without Christ and were reputed aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and were strangers from the testaments of promise and had no hope and were without God in this world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye which a while ago were far off are made nigh (close) by ye blood of Christ." Ephesians 2: 11-13, Tyndale New Testament
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The verses which follow show exactly how Gentiles are made nigh:
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:14-16).
Both the Jews and the Gentiles are made nigh because both are members of the New Man, the Body of Christ.
And here is what we read about the New Man, the Body of Christ:
"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all" (Col.3:10-11).
We are made nigh when both are baptized into the Body of Christ. We are not msde nigh to the Commonwealth of Israel.
Correct!
We are made 'nigh' to GOD, not made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel.
Israel once held a favored, privileged position 'nigh' to GOD. Gentiles could only come nigh to GOD through that nation by becoming proselytes. The nations/gentiles were far off from that favored position...the commonwealth.
Through the blood of Christ, people from all nations, including individual Jews with no priority, can become 'nigh' to GOD by faith.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Paul's point is that 'now' we both have access(nigh) to the Father by one Spirit.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Paul is definitely not saying that both Jew and Gentile have access to the Father through the commonwealth of Israel.
That would go against all that Paul teaches concerning Israel as being blinded, set aside and in a fallen state.
Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
"Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. "
Scripture is not written like a grade school or a high school text, with everything spelled out in great detail. In Romans 9: 8, the statement is literally "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God." This might be seen to mean that those who are of the physical bloodline from Abraham are not the children of God, are not saved. But that would be false, when this statement is seen in the light of other scriptures - Romans 9: 8, "...but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." and 11: 5, and Romans 9: 5 - a remnant is elected. The meaning of Romans 9: 8 is that those who are of the physical bloodline who reject Christ are not the children of God.
In Ephesians 2: 11-13 the answer to what those who are made close to in verse 13 has to be found in verse 12, not made up to conform to Christian Zionist theology,
In Ephesians 2: 12 what the Gentiles who believe are made close to must be to the Commonwealth of Israel, the covenants of promise and God. Christian Zionist theology cannot accept Gentiles being made close to the Commonwealth of Israel or to the covenants of promise, so for the Christian Zionists, the Gentiles must be made close to God, and not to Israel or its covenants.
Christian Zionists have to say that believing Gentiles are made close to the Church. Do they also mean that in the first century believing Jews were part of the Church and not Israel? This is one place where the theology of Darby, Scofield and Chafer confuses things. Among the names for this theology "separation theology" is one which is more accurate than dispensationalism. Separation Theology confuses things by its separation of the bloodline people from the people of faith. If you search the Book of Acts you will find there were some of Paul's local congregations made up of both Jews and Gentiles, though probably Gentiles are more numerous. Tyndale seemed to understand this issue and translated from the Textus Receptus the word ekklesia consistently as congregation instead of as church, breaking with John Wyclife's use of chirche for the Latin word ecclesiam in his 1382 Bible.
"Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. "
Scripture is not written like a grade school or a high school text, with everything spelled out in great detail. In Romans 9: 8, the statement is literally "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God." This might be seen to mean that those who are of the physical bloodline from Abraham are not the children of God, are not saved. But that would be false, when this statement is seen in the light of other scriptures - Romans 9: 8, "...but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." and 11: 5, and Romans 9: 5 - a remnant is elected. The meaning of Romans 9: 8 is that those who are of the physical bloodline who reject Christ are not the children of God.
In Ephesians 2: 11-13 the answer to what those who are made close to in verse 13 has to be found in verse 12, not made up to conform to Christian Zionist theology,
In Ephesians 2: 12 what the Gentiles who believe are made close to must be to the Commonwealth of Israel, the covenants of promise and God. Christian Zionist theology cannot accept Gentiles being made close to the Commonwealth of Israel or to the covenants of promise, so for the Christian Zionists, the Gentiles must be made close to God, and not to Israel or its covenants.
Christian Zionists have to say that believing Gentiles are made close to the Church. Do they also mean that in the first century believing Jews were part of the Church and not Israel? This is one place where the theology of Darby, Scofield and Chafer confuses things. Among the names for this theology "separation theology" is one which is more accurate than dispensationalism. Separation Theology confuses things by its separation of the bloodline people from the people of faith. If you search the Book of Acts you will find there were some of Paul's local congregations made up of both Jews and Gentiles, though probably Gentiles are more numerous. Tyndale seemed to understand this issue and translated from the Textus Receptus the word ekklesia consistently as congregation instead of as church, breaking with John Wyclife's use of chirche for the Latin word ecclesiam in his 1382 Bible.