ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?

[Jerry Shugart]

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."​

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

LA

 

[Danoh]

Ah, the LA smorgasbord...reader be doubly warned.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ah, the LA smorgasbord...reader be doubly warned.

Too bad that LA never even attempted to prove that what I wrote is in error!

 

[themuzicman]

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."​

Unfortunately, you stop there. Paul goes on to explain what he means. (Just FYI, chapters and verses aren't inspired.)

Romans 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,[a] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

And this points back to the beginning of Romans 9:

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Paul establishes a subset of Israel as "children of the promise", and then states:

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

So, even here we see the idea of a remnant being those through whom the word of God is fulfilled.

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved

Israel was partially hardened so the Gentiles could come it.

Yes, there is an "until" here. However, "until" indicates some kind of change, and not necessarily a reversal. If I say, "they remained estranged until his death", I don't mean that they became not estranged upon his dying, but rather that the opportunity to reconcile ended with death.

Likewise, here, Paul is clear that the "children of the flesh", not who are not of the remnant, were prepared for wrath, and that is what they receive. They are hardened "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", but then the opportunity to come in ends. This doesn't indicate that Israel won't be hardened any longer.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Ah, the LA smorgasbord...reader be doubly warned.

He has morphed into a more violent version of Squeaky.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Likewise, here, Paul is clear that the "children of the flesh", not who are not of the remnant, were prepared for wrath, and that is what they receive. They are hardened "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", but then the opportunity to come in ends. This doesn't indicate that Israel won't be hardened any longer.

Nothing which you said even hints that at the time when Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans that Israel after the flesh had not been cast away.

And we can see that in the future the Lord will indeed be dealing with the same Israel:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

This is speaking about the time when the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be a blessing:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:8,13).​

With these prophecies in view it is impossible to assert that the Lord will not be dealing with Israel after the flesh in the future.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Nothing which you said even hints that at the time when Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans that Israel after the flesh had not been cast away.

And we can see that in the future the Lord will indeed be dealing with the same Israel:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

This is speaking about the time when the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be a blessing:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:8,13).​

With these prophecies in view it is impossible to assert that the Lord will not be dealing with Israel after the flesh in the future.

He'll fer shore be dealin' with their flesh .

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Ah, the LA smorgasbord...reader be doubly warned.

Yuh, gotta admit that that helping was right on time.

 

[beloved57]

In the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21; 11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Paul is quoting from the OT so his reference to "Israel" at Romans 10:21 must be the Israel which had its beginning in the OT. Here is the verse which he quoted:

"I have stretched forth my hands all day to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to them that walked in a way that was not good, but after their sins. This is the people that provokes me continually in my presence; they offer sacrifices in gardens, and burn incense on bricks to devils, which exist not" (Isa.65:2-3; LXX).​

At Romans 11:1 the Greek word oun is translated "then" and that word is a conjuction which serves to "subjoin questions suggested by what has just been said" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when Paul asks, "Hath God cast away His people" the words "His people" are referring back to the people of whom he just wrote about, the Israel he describes as being "a disobedient and gainsaying people."

So when Paul asked, "Hath God cast away His people" he was asking if the nation of Israel that had its beginning in the OT had been cast away.

And what he says next makes it plain that God has not cast away the Israel of the OT:

"God forbid."​

His People are them He forknew. Rom 11:2

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Which would be the same ones of Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

His People are them He forknew. Rom 11:2

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Which would be the same ones of Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Greek word translated "foreknew" and "foreknow" has more than one meaning. It does not always refer to those to whom the Lord elected to salvation. And it is obvious in my initial post on this thread that that is not the meaning at Romans 11:2.

 

[Danoh]

The Greek word translated "foreknew" and "foreknow" has more than one meaning. It does not always refer to those to whom the Lord elected to salvation. And it is obvious in my initial post on this thread that that is not the meaning at Romans 11:2.

You hold to Calvinism?

 

[beloved57]

The Greek word translated "foreknew" and "foreknow" has more than one meaning. It does not always refer to those to whom the Lord elected to salvation. And it is obvious in my initial post on this thread that that is not the meaning at Romans 11:2.

If they were not of His Foreknown, they were not His People. They are part of the Matt 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[themuzicman]

Nothing which you said even hints that at the time when Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans that Israel after the flesh had not been cast away.

And we can see that in the future the Lord will indeed be dealing with the same Israel:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

This is speaking about the time when the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be a blessing:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:8,13).​

With these prophecies in view it is impossible to assert that the Lord will not be dealing with Israel after the flesh in the future.

Romans 9:6-8 seems to make it clear that the Word of God to Israel (including these passages) was fulfilled in the remnant, the "children of the promise." Same with ROmans 11:1-7. Nowhere else in Romans 9-11 does Paul say that Israel of the flesh will have anything more.

And we were all blessed through the birth and death of Christ, which came through the nation of Israel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nowhere else in Romans 9-11 does Paul say that Israel of the flesh will have anything more.

Are you really ignorant of what Paul wrote here in chapter eleven?:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Are you really ignorant of what Paul wrote here in chapter eleven?:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Ro.11:26-27).​

You might wanna do a thorough study on where and what Sion is.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You might wanna do a thorough study on where and what Sion is.

If I said something that is error then spell it out. Otherwise, what you say means nothing.

 

[steko]

You might wanna do a thorough study on where and what Sion is.

Zion means 'fortress' and was the fortress of the Jebusites which David conquered and then made his capital. The term gradually came to be synonymous with Jerusalem.

 

[Danoh]

Zion means 'fortress' and was the fortress of the Jebusites which David conquered and then made his capital. The term gradually came to be synonymous with Jerusalem.

Mindless 1 was referring to his self-deluded notions about HEAVENLY Zion.

 

[Interplanner]

If I said something that is error then spell it out. Otherwise, what you say means nothing.

Jerry,
the first thing there in Rom 11 is to realize that the quote is historic already. It was Isaiah's future, and Paul is saying these things have come to pass.

The next is to note that each detail is already true in Christ.

What does this have to do with 'all Israel'? Well, Israel--that Paul is referring to--is now defined as people who believe what he just said is true in Christ.

Paul operates in that which is true in Christ; ie, 'the truth as it is in Jesus.' this is not the same as the reality on the ground, although it is rooted in historic events. this is the meaning of 2 Cor 5 about we once knew Christ 'kata sarka' but now we know that God was in Christ...