ECT Hath God Cast Away His People?

[Jerry Shugart]

Righto. Pentecost even had the wrong reference for the expression 'things to come.' He meant 'Israel-in-its-land-again things to come.' Not.

Here is the land promise given to David by the Lord:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"(Jer.24:6).​

"And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Israelites will be brought back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.

So unless someone wants to argue that the Lord lied to David then they must admit that the land promise given to David by the Lord has not yet been entirely fulfilled.

 

[Interplanner]

Here is the land promise given to David by the Lord:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"(Jer.24:6).​

"And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Israelites will be brought back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.

So unless someone wants to argue that the Lord lied to David then they must admit that the land promise given to David by the Lord has not yet been entirely fulfilled.

There are many places where a prophet said a city would be destroyed forever. Well, it was as far as that or 3-4 generations of those listening were concerned. And then it gets rebuilt. Hebrew is not like a NASA manual, and you can't read the OT without the NT, where none of this matters.

What mattered was that a kingdom--a reign or realm--would be established and it was. It exists by proclamation. We as beleivers are to proclaim that Christ is Lord, enthroned in the resurrection.

The question of whether God or his word is reliable is what Rom 3:3 and 9:6 take up, specifically about the failure of Israel. Their failure as an ethne does not matter any more because God is doing other things in Christ.

In Christ.

That is where God has confirmed and fulfilled everything. That is how the NT reads things.

You are not aware that the NT already knows you would say what you say. Jn 12:34. The crowds had 'heard from the (OT) that the Messiah would reign forever' They thought of your passages, but they were not in the light--see the next verses about them being in the dark.

 

[intojoy]

I'd like to cast jerry someplace

 

[Interplanner]

I'd like to cast jerry someplace

Speak about the issue, not the person.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We as beleivers are to proclaim that Christ is Lord, enthroned in the resurrection.

The Lord Jesus will not be enthroned on His throne until He returns to the earth, as witnessed by His own words here:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

THEN He will sit upon the throne of His glory. He is now in heaven sitting at the throne of the Father:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev.3:21).​

The Lord Jesus is not now sitting in His own throne but instead is sitting in His Father's throne!

How can you be so confused?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'd like to cast jerry someplace

Someplace nice, I'm sure!

 

[intojoy]

Someplace nice, I'm sure!

Nice and warm pal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I'd like to cast jerry someplace

The Israel of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Israel of God.

No, I am not a Jew!

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, I am not a Jew!

Fellow citizens need not be Jews.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Why do you continue to ignore what I presented in my OP?

Obviously you have no answer to what I said in my initial post on this thread!

So what claim do you have to being one of Gods people.

Your OP suggests you must be a Jew to be one of Gods people.

That is obviously wrong.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Here is the land promise given to David by the Lord:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"(Jer.24:6).​

"And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Israelites will be brought back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.

So unless someone wants to argue that the Lord lied to David then they must admit that the land promise given to David by the Lord has not yet been entirely fulfilled.

The NT gives it that David of the OT was typing Jesus Christ as Acts 2 says--

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

so the promises to David have their fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

and the saints will inherit the whole earth (land)

LA

 

[Danoh]

So what claim do you have to being one of Gods people.

Your OP suggests you must be a Jew to be one of Gods people.

That is obviously wrong.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

LA

Happy belated Thanksgiving, to you and yours, Lazy.

Regarding your above comment as to what Jerry's OP suggests - such a suggestion is not only obviously wrong, but not what he is suggesting at all.

 

[northwye]

"Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. "

These verses of Galatians 3 are close to the doctrine in Galatians 3 which is very important to the foundation of the theology of Christian Zionism. This foundation of Christian Zionism asserts that God still honors the physical bloodline from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.

Christian Zionists can, and so sometimes do, drop their belief in the pre-trib rapture,but remain Christian Zionists. The pre-trib rapture is not the foundation of their theology. The supposed continuation of the physical bloodline is that foundation.

Bring in Galatians 3: 3,16-18 and be sure to include Galatians 3: 26-29.

"Are ye so unwise that after ye have begun in the Spirit ye would now end in the flesh?.........To Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He sayth not in the seeds as in many: but in thy seed as in one which is Christ.
17 This I say that the law which began afterward beyond .iiii.C and .xxx.(four hundred and thirty) years doth not disannul the testament that was confirmed before of God unto Christ ward to make the promise of none effect For if the inheritance come of the law it cometh not of promise. But God gave it unto Abraham by promise.........For ye are all the sons of God by ye faith which is in Christ Jesus.
27 For all ye that are baptised have put on Christ.
28 Now is there no Jew nether Gentile: there is nether bond nor free: there is nether man nor woman: but ye are all one thing in Christ Jesus.
29 If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs by promise." Galatians 3: 3, 16-18, 26-29 Tyndale New Testament

Galatians 3: 3, 16-18, 26-29 is a little bit subtle, since it does not say in an explicit statement that the physical bloodline was done away with. But the conclusion from what is said is that there is no more physical bloodline determining who is the chosen of God, the elect of God.

Yet one of the three main founders of dispensationalism, Lewis S. Chafer, says that "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Source for the above quote by Chafer: http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.com/p/lewis-sperry-chafer-return-of-jesus.html

The quote is down the page a bit to: II. THE COMING OF CHRIST PRODUCES FAR-REACHING EFFECTS:

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

In original dispensationalism the chosen people were chosen because of their physical bloodline, and so belief that the physical bloodline still determines who is chosen is now held by those who follow dispensationalism-Christian Zionism. Because the word dispensationalism does not describe well the doctrines of this theology, Stephen Sizer titled his 2006 book, "Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?" Christian Zionism is also a better term for the theology which says that the nation called Israel in the Middle East is really Israel in our time.

 

[Interplanner]

"Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. "

These verses of Galatians 3 are close to the doctrine in Galatians 3 which is very important to the foundation of the theology of Christian Zionism. This foundation of Christian Zionism asserts that God still honors the physical bloodline from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.

Christian Zionists can, and so sometimes do, drop their belief in the pre-trib rapture,but remain Christian Zionists. The pre-trib rapture is not the foundation of their theology. The supposed continuation of the physical bloodline is that foundation.

Bring in Galatians 3: 3,16-17 and be sure to include Galatians 3: 26-29.

"Are ye so unwise that after ye have begun in the Spirit ye would now end in the flesh?.........To Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He sayth not in the seeds as in many: but in thy seed as in one which is Christ.
17 This I say that the law which began afterward beyond .iiii.C and .xxx.(four hundred and thirty) years doth not disannul the testament that was confirmed before of God unto Christ ward to make the promise of none effect.........For ye are all the sons of God by ye faith which is in Christ Jesus.
27 For all ye that are baptised have put on Christ.
28 Now is there no Jew nether Gentile: there is nether bond nor free: there is nether man nor woman: but ye are all one thing in Christ Jesus.
29 If ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs by promise." Galatians 3: 3, 16-17. 26-29 Tyndale New Testament

Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 26-29 is a little bit subtle, since it does not say the in an explicit statement that the physical bloodline was done away with. But the conclusion from what is said is that there is no more physical bloodline determining who is the chosen of God, the elect of God.

Yet one of the three main founders of dispensationalism, Lewis S. Chafer, says that "The nation Israel, God's chosen earthly people, to whom at least five-sixths of the Bible is addressed and with whom the great covenants are made (Rom 9:4-5) -- which covenants secure to that nation a land, a nation, a throne, a King, and a kingdom -- are now scattered throughout all the nations of the earth (Deut 4:26-28; Deut 28:63-68; Jer 16:13), and are to remain scattered until they (a remnant; ed.) are gathered into their own land (Deut 30:3-6; Isa 11:11-12; Isa 14:1-3; Isa 60:1-22; Jer 23:6-8; Jer 32:37-44; Jer 33:7-9; Eze 37:21-25; Mic 4:6-8) under the reign of Christ Jesus at His return."

Source for the above quote by Chafer: http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.com/p/lewis-sperry-chafer-return-of-jesus.html

The quote is down the page a bit to: II. THE COMING OF CHRIST PRODUCES FAR-REACHING EFFECTS:

"Return of Jesus Christ, The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, By Lewis Sperry Chafer 1871-1952."

In original dispensationalism the chosen people were chosen because of their physical bloodline, and so belief that the physical bloodline still determines who is chosen is now held by those who follow dispensationalism-Christian Zionism. Because the word dispensationalism does not describe well the doctrines of this theology, Stephen Sizer titled his 2006 book, "Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?" Christian Zionism is also a better term for the theology which says that the nation called Israel in the Middle East is really Israel in our time.

I now think it is best to translate Jn 3's 'anothen' as 'born from heaven' because of 3:28 but not only that. It's the 'echo' from Nic. He makes me think that the Pharisee view was to start over as a Pharisee from birth. If I'm not mistaken, that's quite a bit of weight on the bloodline! Ie, I think Jesus made his meaning more clear by objectively referring to heaven down in 3:28's 'from heaven' (anothen). Nic could not understand the Spirit at first and went where his Pharisaism led him.

They were after all the 'blind and bruised' Pharisees. They would cover their eyes rather than look at women and would hit trees and corners of buildings doing so.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

so the promises to David have their fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

You are just the latest person on this thread who asserts that the Lord "altered" His promise to David regarding the land despite the fact that He told David that He would not do that.

You make the Lord a liar because you insist on clinging to your unholy teaching.

 

[Interplanner]

You are just the latest person on this thread who asserts that the Lord "altered" His promise to David regarding the land despite the fact that He told David that He would not do that.

You make the Lord a liar because you insist on clinging to your unholy teaching.

No, this is not how the NT uses Ps 89 and Is 53-55. They are about the truth in Christ. that is where these promises are fulfilled. This is why Acts 13:32-39 sounds the way it does and is consistent with acts 2:33-35 in how it refers to David on these things.

David did not ascend to heaven. Jesus is now Christ, Lord, and seated as God on "David's throne".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, this is not how the NT uses Ps 89 and Is 53-55. They are about the truth in Christ. that is where these promises are fulfilled. This is why Acts 13:32-39 sounds the way it does and is consistent with acts 2:33-35 in how it refers to David on these things.

Was this promise made to David?:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

Of course the Lord made this promise to David. And here what the Lord said about the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Lord said that He swore to David that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to him and that His faithfulness would not fail.

But you say that the Lord altered His promise about the land and therefore He lied to David.

Then in order to try to justify your efforts to make the Lord a liar you say that none of this applied to David in the first place. You make no sense!

 

[jamie]

Revelation 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign on the earth.​

Reign over whom?

 

[Interplanner]

Was this promise made to David?:

"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).​

Of course the Lord made this promise to David. And here what the Lord said about the promises which He made to David:

"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).​

The Lord said that He swore to David that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to him and that His faithfulness would not fail.

But you say that the Lord altered His promise about the land and therefore He lied to David.

Then in order to try to justify your efforts to make the Lord a liar you say that none of this applied to David in the first place. You make no sense!

Unless "David" was Christ!