Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

[JudgeRightly]

How is it that Jesus told the adultress, Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more?

Because the Mosaic Law required two or three witnesses to establish guilt.

In case you didn't notice, by the time Jesus said those words, there was no one around to condemn the woman, and thus, no guilt could be established.

And why did He cast seven demons out of the prostitute Mary Magdalene. That strongly implies He cast a demon out of her seven different times. Why didn't He just cast her aside and condemn her after the first time?

What does this have to do with anything Clete just said?

Didn't Paul say to be followers of him just as he was a follower of Jesus Christ?

Yup. He did.

Is that what you're doing with all your condemnation of anyone who disagrees with you?

How many did Paul condemn in his letters for their behavior?

Answer: Plenty.

Paul was stoned, beaten, tossed in jail, and finally beheaded because he wanted to give those who disagreed with him a chance to be saved.

Most Christians these days aren't even willing to give up their jobs to stand for what is true and right.

 

[Gary K]

Because the Mosaic Law required two or three witnesses to establish guilt.

In case you didn't notice, by the time Jesus said those words, there was no one around to condemn the woman, and thus, no guilt could be established.



What does this have to do with anything Clete just said?



Yup. He did.



How many did Paul condemn in his letters for their behavior?

Answer: Plenty.



Most Christians these days aren't even willing to give up their jobs to stand for what is true and right.

It applies to you too.

Jesus cast seven demons out of Mary. Meaning He did it again and again. Yet Clete says he despises most Christians because they aren't what he considers loyal to God and scripture. How loyal were Mary Magdalene and the woman caught in adultery to God and scripture? Does the following sound like what Clete or you would say to the members of the following churches?

1Corinthians 1: 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Corinth is where there was a guy sleeping with his stepmother and there was internal strife and heresies and yet Paul calls them sanctified in Christ and says he thanks God always on their behalf for the grace of God given unto them. He went so far as to say the testimony of Christ was confirmed in them. Does that sound like what you and Clete say to your fellow Christians who just disagree with you?

How about what Paul says to the Galatians?

Galatians 1: 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Is this the way you and Clete address those who disagree with you? Paul said he was stunned at what they had accepted as truth but he didn't condemn the Galatians he condemned those who taught them error.

So do you follow Paul's or Jesus' examples in not condemning sinners but rather the sins?

 

[JudgeRightly]

It applies to you too.

Jesus cast seven demons out of Mary.

Cite please.

Meaning He did it again and again.

Where do you get the idea that they weren't cast out all at once?

Yet Clete says he despises most Christians because they aren't what he considers loyal to God and scripture.

Because they aren't.

How loyal were Mary Magdalene

You're blaming Mary Magdalene for being demon possessed?

and the woman caught in adultery to God and scripture?

Clearly not at all, considering she was an adulteress...

Nor the people who brought her but not the man she was supposedly sleeping with... in violation of the Mosaic Law.

Does the following sound like what Clete or you would say to the members of the following churches?

1Corinthians 1: 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Corinth is where there was a guy sleeping with his stepmother and there was internal strife and heresies and yet Paul calls them sanctified in Christ and says he thanks God always on their behalf for the grace of God given unto them. He went so far as to say the testimony of Christ was confirmed in them. Does that sound like what you and Clete say to your fellow Christians who just disagree with you?

Yup.

How about what Paul says to the Galatians?

Galatians 1: 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Is this the way you and Clete address those who disagree with you?

Yes.

Paul said he was stunned at what they had accepted as truth but he didn't condemn the Galatians he condemned those who taught them error.

Try reading chapter 3. You'll find that you're wrong.

So do you follow Paul's or Jesus' examples in not condemning sinners but rather the sins?

"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is a cliché not found in scripture.

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

 

[JudgeRightly]

That strongly implies He cast a demon out of her seven different times.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Gary K]

Cite please.



Where do you get the idea that they weren't cast out all at once?



Because they aren't.



You're blaming Mary Magdalene for being demon possessed?



Clearly not at all, considering she was an adulteress...

Nor the people who brought her but not the man she was supposedly sleeping with... in violation of the Mosaic Law.



Yup.



Yes.



Try reading chapter 3. You'll find that you're wrong.



"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is a cliché not found in scripture.

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

Luke 8: 2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

So Paul was being as rude as you and Clete? Not even. He called them his Christian brothers. Is that what you do?

Galatians 3: 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

So what if an exact phrase is not in scripture? It is taught even more forcefully by example. Jesus called His disciples His friends and made special mention of Peter to the women at the sepulchre on the resurrection morning who failed miserably at being faithful to Him. Paul was willing to suffer so that those who didn't think accept what he believed would have a chance at salvation. Those examples are not loving the sinner and hating the sin? Jesus even died for the Pharisees even though they rejected, hated, and murdered Him..

John 3: 14 ¶And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 ¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Luke 8: 2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

That says neither that Jesus is the one who cast out the demons, nor that Jesus did so seven different times.

So Paul was being as rude as you and Clete? Not even. He called them his Christian brothers. Is that what you do?

Galatians 3: 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Yup.

Problem?

So what if an exact phrase is not in scripture?

I didn't say the "exact phrase" wasn't in the Bible.

I said the "hate the sin, love the sinner" cliché is not found in scripture.

Meaning it isn't taught, verbatim or otherwise.

It is taught even more forcefully by example.

No, it's not.

Jesus called His disciples His friends and made special mention of Peter to the women at the sepulchre on the resurrection morning who failed miserably at being faithful to Him.

Ok, and?

Paul was willing to suffer so that those who didn't think accept what he believed would have a chance at salvation.

Ok, and?

Those examples are not loving the sinner and hating the sin?

No.

Jesus even died for the Pharisees even though they rejected, hated, and murdered Him..

John 3: 14 ¶And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 ¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Had you read the link I posted, you would have read why I said it is a cliché not found in scripture.

But you can't even be bothered to consider your opponent's position, let alone why he believes it.

Here is the link again, so you don't even have to scroll up to find it again:

https://kgov.com/nicer-than-God#sinner

 

[CabinetMaker]

God is not a respecter of persons! God had the relationship He had with David because David readily admitted his failures and repented of them. Had he not done so, God would have replaced David just as He replaced Sol.

Just where do you go to church, anyway?

Don't you have a relationship with Christ?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Who cares?

Refute them, if you can. That would be interesting. Your personal opinions bore me.


Jesus not only had the authority to do so but paying careful attention will reveal that He did so in accordance with the law. Conviction under the law required the testimony of two or three witnesses. When the witnesses all left, a legal conviction was no longer possible.

Also, the point of their wanting to have the adulteress executed wasn't about criminal justice it was about getting Jesus in trouble with the Roman authorities who did not allow the Jews (or anyone else) to execute criminals without their express permission. Jesus manipulated the situation so as to both overcome His enemies and preserve His law.


You're a veritable fount of Christian cliche.

You don't even try to do this.

Do you circumcise your male children on the eighth day of their life as Jesus was? NO!
Do you observe the dietary laws as Jesus did? NO!
Do you observe the Sabbath days as Jesus did? NO!
Do you even know what all the Sabbath days are? NO!

Jesus was a Jew, born under the law and He submitted Himself to the law and followed it PERFECTLY. A practice that you not only do not follow but wouldn't have any idea how to follow precisely because you have not been taught to live "a life like Christ".


He also brought hatred, offense and condemnation. If you think otherwise then you don't know Christ and you need to get away from whoever it is teaching you the bible because they're either just as ignorant of the bible as you are, or they're lying to you.


If more people like you than hate you, you're doing something very wrong. The truth is unavoidably offensive.


No, you haven't. Stop lying.

The single most effective ministries (I'm thinking of two in particular) I've ever even heard of, never mind actually been involved with, have had hundreds (probably thousands, actually) come to Christ precisely because of their aggressive condemnation of sinners.


God isn't the least bit interested in having homos become Christians! If they stop being a homo then, sure! By all means! But if you think that a homo can continuing being a pervert while being a follower of Christ then you're so completely ignorant of who Christ is that it calls your own salvation into question. If that's what you've been taught, then that's not Christianity, neither in doctrine nor in practice.

Christianity is about convicting people of their sin in hopes that they will repent and ask God for His forgiveness, not accepting people as they are and hoping that they'll like us enough to want to join our Sunday morning social club meetings. People are not going to get saved unless they know they need saving. Without Christ, people are going to go to Hell because they deserve it and certain people have done things that mean they deserve to die and go straight to Hell right now (e.g. murders, rapists, adulterers, child molester, Sodomites, etc) and you are NOT going to communicate that message without offending for more people than not. Nearly EVERYONE is going to be offended by that message. Those that aren't will be the rare exception. These are those that God is looking for, not the proud pervert.

Clete

Well, since I am not under the Old Covenant, I do not follow Mosaic law. I learned long ago that I am incapable of following the law to the perfection required for salvation under the law hence my need for a savior. Jesus taught me that.

I watched Alice Coopers testimony yesterday, purely by chance. It was interesting to hear him say that he came back to his faith because of fear of judgement. So now I know of people who come through fear and others who come through hope.

I believe that each of us has a unique way to share our faith. I believe that God uses all of us for His purpose so me telling you that you are wrong in your approach is as wrong as you telling me I am wrong in my approach. Both approaches are useful to God.

I do know that one cannot continue in a grossly sinful life style and claim salvation as well. Paul was clear about this. And if I can have a civil conversation with a homosexual I explain this to them, that their life style is mutually exclusive to a saving relationship with Christ. They must choose. Ironically, I have had to have this conversation with good Christians. They taught bible study, faithfully attended service, volunteered in all sorts of activities, and saw nothing wrong with the affair they were having because, after all, they loved each other. Eventually, they were asked to leave the church as is proper.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Doesn't make you right.



Those are the marching orders for Israel, and they are not currently in effect.

We're in the Body of Christ. Our marching orders are different.



Doesn't mean you're right.



Jesus' mission was "for the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

During His mission, He reconciled the entire world to Himself.



Yes, the original plan was to have Israel be a spokes-nation for the world, to proclaim God, so that men would repent of their sin.

That plan was put on hold in Acts 8.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



That doesn't put you under the New Covenant.

That just means that you've accepted Christ as your Savior. That's the dispensation of grace, preached by Paul, given to him by Jesus Christ Himself.

Jesus is not "Lord and Savior" under the New Covenant. He is "Messiah and King."



So what?



Yes, Jesus taught the law.

Most of what He taught people was the CORRECTION to what the law had become.



Who, specifically?



So what?



Where?



Jesus said that unless someone repents, you should not forgive him.

Why do you go against His teachings?

Only God has the authority to forgive someone of their sins. You do not, except to forgive someone of the harm they have committed against you.



Irrelevant.



Try arguing against what we're saying, not what someone else says.

Doesn't make me wrong either. I am actually here exploring theology. I am comparing what you believe and what I believe to I have learned in scripture. I'm not here to prove you wrong. I don't think you are wrong. But I also don't think you are the final authority. For that, I must carefully and prayerfully consider scripture. On a day to day basis I have to live my faith. I know that God wants to redeem all His children so I try to treat people with the respect and kindness that I firmly believe Christ used when talking to people.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Nor could he have been!

There is no provision in the law for prosecuting the king.

This point has been made more than once already.

David was King UNDER the law, he was not above the law. It is a bad point. No man under the Old Covenant was above the law.

 

[Gary K]

That says neither that Jesus is the one who cast out the demons, nor that Jesus did so seven different times.



Yup.

Problem?



I didn't say the "exact phrase" wasn't in the Bible.

I said the "hate the sin, love the sinner" cliché is not found in scripture.

Meaning it isn't taught, verbatim or otherwise.



No, it's not.



Ok, and?



Ok, and?



No.



Had you read the link I posted, you would have read why I said it is a cliché not found in scripture.

But you can't even be bothered to consider your opponent's position, let alone why he believes it.

Here is the link again, so you don't even have to scroll up to find it again:

https://kgov.com/nicer-than-God#sinner

So the love of Jesus for you and I are not examples of Jesus hating the sin and loving the sinner? Jesus loving sinners enough to hang on the cross for all sinners isn't an example of loving sinners and hating sin?

Romans 5: 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Right Divider]

Doesn't make me wrong either. I am actually here exploring theology. I am comparing what you believe and what I believe to I have learned in scripture. I'm not here to prove you wrong. I don't think you are wrong. But I also don't think you are the final authority. For that, I must carefully and prayerfully consider scripture. On a day to day basis I have to live my faith. I know that God wants to redeem all His children so I try to treat people with the respect and kindness that I firmly believe Christ used when talking to people.

Like Matthew 23?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Like Matthew 23?

So you don't believe that it is possible to deliver a difficult teaching with kindness and respect. Noted.

 

[Right Divider]

So you don't believe that it is possible to deliver a difficult teaching with kindness and respect. Noted.

So you cannot read?

 

[JudgeRightly]

David was King UNDER the law,

Correct.

Clete also believes this.

he was not above the law.

No one has said that he was above the law.

What we've said is that no one could lawfully prosecute him, under the law, because no one had authority over him, aside from God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So the love of Jesus for you and I are not examples of Jesus hating the sin and loving the sinner?

Correct.

Jesus loving sinners enough to hang on the cross for all sinners isn't an example of loving sinners and hating sin?

Correct.

Romans 5: 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

AMEN!

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

Why do you think that God, let alone men, are not capable of both love and hate simultaneously?

Scripture says that "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

Jesus reiterated this during His earthly ministry, saying "if you lust after a woman, you have committed adultery with her in your heart," making the one who lusts after a woman an adulterer at heart. Also, "if you hate your brother = murderer at heart."

The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). Thus, the problem isn't his sin as much as it is him. Yes, "the Lord hates... hands that shed innocent blood," (Prov. 6:16-17), but those hands are attached to the man and controlled by his heart (i.e., his mind). So God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates." (Ps 11:5). So not only does King David say, "Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! ... Do I not hate them, O Lord who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred" (Ps. 139:19, 21-22; [Jer. 12:8]). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hate(s) wickedness (Ps. 45:7). There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans… a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Hos. 9:15). As Moses recorded that God said, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30). Proverbs 12:10 The kindest acts of the wicked are cruel. Kinda reminds you of Bernie Sanders.Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points the way to God. God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

 

[JudgeRightly]

So you don't believe that it is possible to deliver a difficult teaching with kindness and respect. Noted.

So you don't even bother considering the points other people make. Noted.

Try reading the boxed text in my response to Gary above.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Correct.

Clete also believes this.



No one has said that he was above the law.

What we've said is that no one could lawfully prosecute him, under the law, because no one had authority over him, aside from God.

So, God's laws don't apply to the rich and powerful. Got it.

 

[Right Divider]

So, God's laws don't apply to the rich and powerful. Got it.

It's impossible to have a discussion with someone as dishonest and dumb as you.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So you don't even bother considering the points other people make. Noted.

Try reading the boxed text in my response to Gary above.

Do you ever support your theology from the New Testament?

I look at the woman in at the well. She was an adulteress and deserved stoning under the law. Now, many people like to say that she couldn't be stoned because the law requires that she and her partner be stoned together and Jesus didn't know her her partner was. So much for omnipotence. Frankly, I am pretty sure Jesus knew who her partners were se He could have asked for them to be brought forward. I also believe that their was a reason Jesus did not condemn her. In fact, He did not tell the crowd they could not stone her. Instead, He used the opportunity to provide teaching on judgement John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Now, I am certainly not sinless. I still struggle a bit with looking at a woman with lust in my eyes. (Matthew 5:28) I am not perfect, but I am forgiven.