Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

[Gary K]

It isn't wrong. Even if your initial response was to someone's specific question, you've insisted on the point even after having been repeatedly told that the point doesn't apply to what we're ACTUALLY talking about. You just go right along as though that doesn't matter and remake the same point no matter what anyone says. It's very clearly on purpose, not to mention childish and boring!


Has anyone on this thread asked whether we should obey today's civil laws? I haven't seen anyone ask that question!

You know why?

It's because that would be off the topic!


You're such a ridiculous clown.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

[*StrongsGreek*]
04469
ῥακά rhaká, rhak-ah'
of Chaldee origin [compare 07386];
O empty one, i.e. thou worthless (as a term of utter vilification):--Raca.

 

[JudgeRightly]

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

[*StrongsGreek*]
04469
ῥακά rhaká, rhak-ah'
of Chaldee origin [compare 07386];
O empty one, i.e. thou worthless (as a term of utter vilification):--Raca.

What a fool you are!

 

[Tambora]

And I pointed out to you that the law that said to execute adulterers remained, despite God not killing David for his crime, and that David was still punished.

David was not punished for adultery per the law.

 

[JudgeRightly]

David was not punished for adultery per the law.

And yet, the law remained against adultery, and David was punished directly by God for both his adultery with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah.

It's not either/or, Tambora. It's BOTH/AND.

Tambora, to make things clear here, please answer the following question: Do you believe that we (that is, modern human governments; I'm not talking about the Body of Christ, but rather of governmental responsibilities) should put to death those guilty of murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, pedophilia, and/or other capital crimes?

Question, Tam: Do you know what the punishment for perjury (bearing false witness) should be, according to God?

 

[Tambora]

And yet, the law remained against adultery,

I have not argued against that.

and David was punished directly by God for both his adultery with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah.

You can keep saying that if you want, but David was not punished per the law.

It's not either/or, Tambora. It's BOTH/AND.

No it's not.
There is nothing in the law that says an adulterer's child should receive death instead of the adulterer as punishment for his adultery.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have not argued against that.



You can keep saying that if you want, but David was not punished per the law.

How many times do I have to agree with this point before you stop making it?

I'm not saying David was punished according to the law.

I'm saying David was punished. Period.

No it's not.
There is nothing in the law that says an adulterer's child should receive death instead of the adulterer as punishment for his adultery.

No one has said there was.

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that David was punished for his adultery with Bathsheba and murder of Uriah by the death of his child, as per scripture?

Can you answer these questions?

Do you believe that we (that is, modern human governments; I'm not talking about the Body of Christ, but rather of governmental responsibilities) should put to death those guilty of murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, pedophilia, and/or other capital crimes?

Question, Tam: Do you know what the punishment for perjury (bearing false witness) should be, according to God?

 

[Tambora]

How many times do I have to agree with this point before you stop making it?

I'm not saying David was punished according to the law.

Then why keep asking me about governmental laws if punishments per laws are not the point?????
Are you looking for answers of what kind of punishments should be issued by governments apart from governmental laws?
If you really want to open that can of worms then here's a question for you ......... Since God is just and, according to you, He punished David for his murder & adultery by killing his son instead of punishing David according to the law, would it be just for governments to issue that same type of punishment to adulterers and murderers?

 

[JudgeRightly]

hen why keep asking me about governmental laws if punishments per laws are not the point?????

Because that's what we were talking about before you butted in with your OFF TOPIC statement about David.

Are you looking for answers of what kind of punishments should be issued by governments apart from governmental laws?

No.

I want you to answer the questions I asked.

Do you believe that we (that is, modern human governments; I'm not talking about the Body of Christ, but rather of governmental responsibilities) should put to death those guilty of murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, pedophilia, and/or other capital crimes?

Question, Tam: Do you know what the punishment for perjury (bearing false witness) should be, according to God?

If you really want to open that can of worms then here's a question for you .........

Why should I answer any of your questions when you continuously refuse to even acknowledge that my questions to you even exist?

Since God is just and, according to you, He punished David for his murder & adultery by killing his son instead of punishing David according to the law, would it be just for governments to issue that same type of punishment to adulterers and murderers?

No, because governments do not have the right to take innocent lives. God does, because He is the Creator. He has the right to move humans from one stage of their existence to the next, because he is the one who designed them to live their lives in two stages.

Now, would you PLEASE answer my questions:

Do you believe that we (that is, modern human governments; I'm not talking about the Body of Christ, but rather of governmental responsibilities) should put to death those guilty of murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, pedophilia, and/or other capital crimes?

Question, Tam: Do you know what the punishment for perjury (bearing false witness) should be?

 

[Tambora]

Because that's what we were talking about before you butted in with your OFF TOPIC statement about David.

I responded to the post CM made.
That is not "butting in".

Why should I answer any of your questions when you continuously refuse to even acknowledge that my questions to you even exist?

Oh for pete sake, stop being so illogical.
I acknowledged that your questions existed and said it it was not the direction I was interested in.

No, because governments do not have the right to take innocent lives. God does,

Good grief, out of one side of your mouth you say you have the right to act insulting towards people because the Lord did, and then out of the other side of your mouth you claim we shouldn't act like the Lord did.

because He is the Creator. He has the right to move humans from one stage of their existence to the next, because he is the one who designed them to live their lives in two stages.

What a load.

Now, would you PLEASE answer my questions:

Do you believe that we (that is, modern human governments; I'm not talking about the Body of Christ, but rather of governmental responsibilities) should put to death those guilty of murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, pedophilia, and/or other capital crimes?

Question, Tam: Do you know what the punishment for perjury (bearing false witness) should be?

If you want to keep hounding me about your silly questions after I have already said it is not the direction I want to go in then knock yourself out.
It's a can of worms with way too many variables.
Give your own answers if you think they will hold up to scrutiny without any Christian foundation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I responded to the post CM made.

... with a post that was off topic to what was being discussed among myself, Cabinet, and Clete.

That is not "butting in".

Yes, it is.

Oh for pete sake, stop being so illogical.

There is nothing illogical about what I said.

I acknowledged that your questions existed and said it it was not the direction I was interested in.

Then you shouldn't have posted anything in this thread.

Good grief, out of one side of your mouth you say you have the right to act insulting towards people because the Lord did,

Yes.

and then out of the other side of your mouth you claim we shouldn't act like the Lord did.

There's a difference between being insulting as Christ was insulting (imitating Christ), and not killing the innocent because we don't have the right to do so, and thus doing so would be wrong.

Talk about being illogical...

What a load.

So God did not create man to live their first stage of life here on this earth, and then their second stage of life with Him?

Instead of attacking my position with logical fallacies (such as your usage of an appeal to the stone here), try responding rationally.

If you want to keep hounding me about your silly questions after I have already said it is not the direction I want to go in then knock yourself out.

Or, I'll just remove you from this thread, since you don't seem to be interested in staying on topic.

It's a can of worms with way too many variables.

It really isn't.

The only reason you think it is, is because you've never actually sat down and learned what "justice" means.

Give your own answers if you think they will hold up to scrutiny without any Christian foundation.

Fine, since you won't be able to respond here anymore anyways, I will.

The answers are as follows:

Do you believe that we (that is, modern human governments; I'm not talking about the Body of Christ, but rather of governmental responsibilities) should put to death those guilty of murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, pedophilia, and/or other capital crimes?

Yes, Human governments should, without showing any mercy, put convicted murderers, adulterers, kidnappers, rapists, pedophiles, and those guilty of other capital crimes, to death, quickly and painfully, without fail.

SO THAT...

All would-be murderers, adulterers, kidnappers, rapists, pedophiles, and ALL other criminals, not just those who would commit capital crimes, should be deterred from committing those crimes.

BECAUSE...

God gives a guarantee that if you punish a criminal swiftly and painfully, men will be deterred from committing crimes.

Question, Tam: Do you know what the punishment for perjury (bearing false witness) should be?

The punishment for perjury should be that the perjurer (the one who bears false witness) shall have done to him what he hoped to have done to the one he was bearing false witness against.

If the false witness bore false witness against someone in a case where the crime that was (allegedly) committed was a capital crime, then the false witness, upon conviction, should be put to death.

If he bore false witness in an assault case, he should be flogged.

If he bore false witness in a crime involving finances, he should be forced to pay the amount he hope to have the falsely accused pay, TO the falsely accused.

See? That wasn't so hard. Not a can of worms at all!

And BOTH answers come STRAIGHT from the Bible.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The United States of America is not under the "new covenant" and neither are you.

I strongly disagree with this. "Go forth and make believers of ALL men."

 

[CabinetMaker]

In America, we no longer have a justice system. Now it's just-a-system.



The only reason a criminal justice system needs lawyers is when the law is being used as a weapon against the innocent.



Have you considered what God said the punishment should be?



Good. That's an excellent place to start at.



The New Covenant was strictly between God and Israel, and only for the coming Kingdom of Israel, with God Himself on her throne.

America, among others, is a Gentile nation.

And while I'm a theonomist, I don't believe we should be implementing the Mosaic Law everywhere.

That said, Five of the Ten Commandments are the foundation for a good criminal justice system, regardless of the nation.

Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not bear false witness.
Do not covet.

And while coveting itself is not a crime, it provides a means of determining motive for the other four crimes and their extensions.

See https://kgov.com/criminal-code.

I strongly disagree with this. Jesus was sent to redeem ALL men to the Father, not just Israel. That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to go forth and make believers of all. Yes, I am under the New Covenant because Jesus is my Lord and Savior.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well, you are flatly wrong!

I'm telling you that your chances of getting murdered drop to next to nothing if all you do is avoid those three things. The exceptions being the rare outlier where someone is murdered from an unrelated reason, which of course does happen from time to time and, as I already mentioned, any form of stranger murder like mass shootings or whatever.

The exceptions prove the rule, by the way, unless you're just being stupid and then they somehow prove the rule wrong but we aren't stupid - RIGHT?


Exactly! This is why we have an epidemic of not only crime but suicide and poverty and all sorts of societal ills.



Surprisingly, ones upbringing isn't usually enough to make someone a criminal IF the criminal justice system is actually just. If you enacted just laws, even people who would otherwise become sociopaths will USUALLY not become criminals and if they do, they'd be very much easier to catch.


Trust God, He's wiser than you are.

Adultery is one of the biggest motivations for murder.
Broken families (being raised without a Father in the home in particular) is the biggest driver of all kinds of societal ills, not the least of which are teen suicide, poverty, drug use, becoming a criminal of pretty much any sort, etc, etc, etc. That list really does go on and on and on.

You pass one single law that criminalized adultery and the drop in either the murder rate or teen suicide rate alone would make it worthwhile!


Holy smokes man! You have got to get yourself in a better position in regards to how you align yourself with God. Issues of morality are not matters of personal opinion. The degree to which you disagree with God about any issue, much less issues of morality like criminal justice, is the degree to which you are evil and the degree to which you tacitly endorse the effects evil has on society.

I guarantee you that if you just stop worrying about what everyone around you thinks about it and place your trust in God's judgment and then spend even five minutes a week trying to actually mentally practice justice, you'll be much better off both in this life and in the next.

God is right, whether you like it or not. Risk trusting Him, no matter the cost. It's worth it.

Clete

I find your arguments unconvincing. I look at how Jesus interacted with people and compare that to Mosaic Law. I have seen Jesus forgive people who deserved death under the law. As a Christian, I have always been taught that to be Christian is to live a life like Christ. Jesus brought hope and forgiveness to people. That means I too should be bringing hole to people and forgiving those that I can. I have seen what happens when Christians loudly professing to sharing God's love tell people that God wants them dead. God doesn't want them dead, God wants His wayward children to return home to Him.

 

[CabinetMaker]

If you had read my post with a clear mind you would see that I said absolutely nothing about the law being abolished just for David.


And if you had read my post with a clear mind you would see that my post was in response to adultery, not murder.


I gave the facts of scripture that David committed adultery and David was not put to death even though the law said one that commits adultery was to be put to death.
I don't know how anyone could miss that.

I seem to recall that David was always one of God's favorites, even after committing adultery.

 

[Clete]

David was not punished for adultery per the law.

Nor could he have been!

There is no provision in the law for prosecuting the king.

This point has been made more than once already.

 

[Right Divider]

I strongly disagree with this.

That's because you're confused and wrong.

Jesus was sent to redeem ALL men to the Father, not just Israel.

So what?

That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to go forth and make believers of all.

That is irrelevant to the discussion.

Yes, I am under the New Covenant because Jesus is my Lord and Savior.

You are immensely confused. The new covenant is between God and Israel ... just like the old covenant.

Heb 8:7-10 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:7) For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (8:10) For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

So simple and yet you and so many confuse it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I strongly disagree with this.

Doesn't make you right.

"Go forth and make believers of ALL men."

Those are the marching orders for Israel, and they are not currently in effect.

We're in the Body of Christ. Our marching orders are different.

I strongly disagree with this.

Doesn't mean you're right.

Jesus was sent to redeem ALL men to the Father, not just Israel.

Jesus' mission was "for the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

During His mission, He reconciled the entire world to Himself.

That is why Jesus commanded His disciples to go forth and make believers of all.

Yes, the original plan was to have Israel be a spokes-nation for the world, to proclaim God, so that men would repent of their sin.

That plan was put on hold in Acts 8.

Yes, I am under the New Covenant

Saying it doesn't make it so.

because Jesus is my Lord and Savior.

That doesn't put you under the New Covenant.

That just means that you've accepted Christ as your Savior. That's the dispensation of grace, preached by Paul, given to him by Jesus Christ Himself.

Jesus is not "Lord and Savior" under the New Covenant. He is "Messiah and King."

I find your arguments unconvincing.

So what?

I look at how Jesus interacted with people and compare that to Mosaic Law.

Yes, Jesus taught the law.

Most of what He taught people was the CORRECTION to what the law had become.

I have seen Jesus forgive people who deserved death under the law.

Who, specifically?

As a Christian, I have always been taught that to be Christian is to live a life like Christ.

So what?

Jesus brought hope and forgiveness to people.

Where?

That means I too should be bringing ho(p)e to people and forgiving those that I can.

Jesus said that unless someone repents, you should not forgive him.

Why do you go against His teachings?

Only God has the authority to forgive someone of their sins. You do not, except to forgive someone of the harm they have committed against you.

I have seen what happens when Christians loudly professing to sharing God's love tell people that God wants them dead.

Irrelevant.

God doesn't want them dead, God wants His wayward children to return home to Him.

Try arguing against what we're saying, not what someone else says.

 

[Clete]

I find your arguments unconvincing.

Who cares?

Refute them, if you can. That would be interesting. Your personal opinions bore me.

I look at how Jesus interacted with people and compare that to Mosaic Law. I have seen Jesus forgive people who deserved death under the law.

Jesus not only had the authority to do so but paying careful attention will reveal that He did so in accordance with the law. Conviction under the law required the testimony of two or three witnesses. When the witnesses all left, a legal conviction was no longer possible.

Also, the point of their wanting to have the adulteress executed wasn't about criminal justice it was about getting Jesus in trouble with the Roman authorities who did not allow the Jews (or anyone else) to execute criminals without their express permission. Jesus manipulated the situation so as to both overcome His enemies and preserve His law.

As a Christian, I have always been taught that to be Christian is to live a life like Christ.

You're a veritable fount of Christian cliche.

You don't even try to do this.

Do you circumcise your male children on the eighth day of their life as Jesus was? NO!
Do you observe the dietary laws as Jesus did? NO!
Do you observe the Sabbath days as Jesus did? NO!
Do you even know what all the Sabbath days are? NO!

Jesus was a Jew, born under the law and He submitted Himself to the law and followed it PERFECTLY. A practice that you not only do not follow but wouldn't have any idea how to follow precisely because you have not been taught to live "a life like Christ".

Jesus brought hope and forgiveness to people.

He also brought hatred, offense and condemnation. If you think otherwise then you don't know Christ and you need to get away from whoever it is teaching you the bible because they're either just as ignorant of the bible as you are, or they're lying to you.

That means I too should be bringing hole to people and forgiving those that I can.

If more people like you than hate you, you're doing something very wrong. The truth is unavoidably offensive.

I have seen what happens when Christians loudly professing to sharing God's love tell people that God wants them dead.

No, you haven't. Stop lying.

The single most effective ministries (I'm thinking of two in particular) I've ever even heard of, never mind actually been involved with, have had hundreds (probably thousands, actually) come to Christ precisely because of their aggressive condemnation of sinners.

God doesn't want them dead, God wants His wayward children to return home to Him.

God isn't the least bit interested in having homos become Christians! If they stop being a homo then, sure! By all means! But if you think that a homo can continuing being a pervert while being a follower of Christ then you're so completely ignorant of who Christ is that it calls your own salvation into question. If that's what you've been taught, then that's not Christianity, neither in doctrine nor in practice.

Christianity is about convicting people of their sin in hopes that they will repent and ask God for His forgiveness, not accepting people as they are and hoping that they'll like us enough to want to join our Sunday morning social club meetings. People are not going to get saved unless they know they need saving. Without Christ, people are going to go to Hell because they deserve it and certain people have done things that mean they deserve to die and go straight to Hell right now (e.g. murders, rapists, adulterers, child molester, Sodomites, etc) and you are NOT going to communicate that message without offending for more people than not. Nearly EVERYONE is going to be offended by that message. Those that aren't will be the rare exception. These are those that God is looking for, not the proud pervert.

Clete

 

[Clete]

I seem to recall that David was always one of God's favorites, even after committing adultery.

God is not a respecter of persons! God had the relationship He had with David because David readily admitted his failures and repented of them. Had he not done so, God would have replaced David just as He replaced Sol.

Just where do you go to church, anyway?

 

[Gary K]

God is not a respecter of persons! God had the relationship He had with David because David readily admitted his failures and repented of them. Had he not done so, God would have replaced David just as He replaced Sol.

Just where do you go to church, anyway?

Hmmmm. Didn't I see you saying you despised most Christians and why? How is it that Jesus told the adultress, Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more? And why did He cast seven demons out of the prostitute Mary Magdalene. That strongly implies He cast a demon out of her seven different times. Why didn't He just cast her aside and condemn her after the first time?

Didn't Paul say to be followers of him just as he was a follower of Jesus Christ? Is that what you're doing with all your condemnation of anyone who disagrees with you? Paul was stoned, beaten, tossed in jail, and finally beheaded because he wanted to give those who disagreed with him a chance to be saved.