ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

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Grosnick Marowbe

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Crucible said:
Calvinism is bulletproof, and that makes other people mad.
It's like watching someone try to open up a can with their bare hands. Eventually they get frustrated and start beating it :chuckle:

And that is exactly what has gone on here.
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You seem to have a problem with discernment. You seem blind to the truth of the "Real Gospel?" you see things that aren't there and things that are there, you don't see. You poor soul, I feel sorry for you.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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TulipBee said:
Effectual Calling

“And those He predestined, He also called; those He called; He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified” (v.30).

-Romans 8:29–31

Which comes first: faith or the new birth? The answer of much of Christendom is that faith comes first, and then, when God sees that we have graciously put faith in Him, He gives us a new birth. The Bible actually teaches the reverse. God gives us a new birth, and we cry out to Him in faith as a result.

Part of the problem here is that many Christians fail to distinguish between the external call of the Gospel and the internal call of the Holy Spirit. They say that God calls all men externally, and then when some men repent and believe, God gives them new life. It is true that God calls all men, but it is not true that God gives them new life based on their repentance and faith. Rather, while God calls all men externally, He only calls His own internally. Those who truly respond to the external call are those who have been internally called by God and given new birth. Then they respond in faith to the external call.

Notice Romans 8:28. It says that all things work together for good to those who have been called by God. Does this refer to the external call of the Gospel or to the internal call of God’s Spirit? Clearly, it refers to the latter. People who are externally called and who then reject the Gospel will go to hell. All things will not be working for their good in hell.

Consider also Romans 8:30. It says that those who were called by God are justified and glorified. If this referred to the external call of the Gospel, it would mean that all people are justified and glorified. In fact, of course, it refers to God’s internal call.

The doctrine of the internal call cannot be avoided if we take the Bible seriously, and it leaves no room for man to play a part in his own salvation. Why do some people respond to the Gospel? Because God called them. Why do others not respond? Because God did not call them.

The call produces new life. Ephesians 2:1–5 says that we were dead before God called us and quickened us. A dead man cannot respond to anything. He cannot cooperate with any kind of call, external or internal. Like Lazarus in the grave, he cannot come back to life unless God raises him. God’s call, like that of Jesus, calls Lazarus from the grave.

Coram Deo

Some would say, “Well, sure, there is an internal call: God internally calls all men. But some resist His call, while others cooperate.” Use Romans 8:28 and 30 to show that this is not what Paul means by the call of God in those verses. Do you understand the difference? Can you help someone else understand it?

Found at http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/effectual-calling/
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That you actually tell this to unbelievers is astonishing - that the Gospel is basically Russian Roulette ...outrageous!

No acknowledgement of the Gospel Paul preached (where Paul explicitly calls it the Gospel) - whilst citing Romans 8:28ff and failing to emphasise 'For whom He foreknew...'
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Crucible said:
Calvinism is bulletproof, and that makes other people mad.
It's like watching someone try to open up a can with their bare hands. Eventually they get frustrated and start beating it :chuckle:

And that is exactly what has gone on here.
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#341

You wont will you? Your Calvinism actually hinders you in the proclamation of the Gospel.
 
PneumaPsucheSoma

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Sonnet said:
Or, I inferred and pointed at a possible conflict.



Baffling and condescending.

Would you name a recognised Greek scholar that you agree with?
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Predominantly, Spiros Zodhiates for lexicography and Daniel Wallace for grammar. But that doesn't mean their doctrine is all pristine.

I'm also a huge adherant to the Patristics from a developmental standpoint.

My exasperation is what seems to be condescension. And I'm unveiling the baffling part as simply and directly as is humanly possible to non-linguists with extensive erroneous conceptual presuppositions.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

New member
TulipBee said:
They ramble on when refuted. They can't do anything else till God softens thier heart
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What is clear is that you will not express to unbelievers that which Paul explicitly says constitutes the essence of the Gospel. Instead you go to scriptures that are obviously about believers:

Romans 8:23-30
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Compare this to 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul speaks of what was preached when he first came to the Corinthians and what he currently preaches.

TulipBee, would you care to remind believers (on this forum) of what would have been preached to them (just like Paul did in his Corinthian letter) which they 'received and on which they have taken their stand'?

Will you? For Paul says:

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Here are the words used:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

No, the exact words don't have to be used, but, certainly, they must be the equivalent else you'd be preaching a different Gospel and, as we know, Paul cursed those who do that.

I'm asking you TulipBee, in the light of Paul's words here, what would have been preached?
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Nang said:
They think that even though they were corrupted and vile sinners, they retained the virtue and spiritual capacity in their hearts, to love and believe in God. They believe they were saved by their own good exercise of faith.

This is the heretical teaching of Pelagius.
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Its the heretical teaching of Marowbe the mighty, who in fact works his own faith.
LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Grosnick Marowbe said:
You've created your own personal gospel here. This Internal/external calling is total non-sense, you made it up. God calls ALL men to the saving knowledge of His Son's death and resurrection. Some respond and some do not. You're preaching "Another gospel" that the Bible warns against.
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You can not even believe unless God grants that to you, and many turn away from what they see.

Like you.

LA
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Lazy afternoon said:
Show me the gospel Paul preached to unbelievers.

LA
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1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
 
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