ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

[Eagles Wings]

T total depravity does not mean that all men are as bad as they can be, rather that sin has touched every part of man. That means that if left to himself man cannot and will not seek God.

U unlimited atonement means that the work of the cross rendered all men savable.

I irresistible grace means that those whom God calls can not reject the call. There is a general call to faith given to all men but there is also an effectual call upon those whom God has predestined to life eternal.

P perseverance of God. It is due to God's faithfulness and not man's perseverance that none can be lost once they have been saved.

Limited atonement is not supported by scripture.

Perseverance of the saints violates the principle of justification by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing.

Thx for asking


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Hope you read this through for an understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.

TULIP: Faith of Our Fathers
By Gritters, Barrett L.

The Calvinists came up with a beautiful acronymn (TULIP) to explain the doctrines of grace.


Is the faith of our fathers living in your life? In your church? We sing the song: 'Faith of our fathers living still ...' and no doubt the faith is living. But the question is, 'Where is that faith living and confessed?' And, 'What is the faith of our fathers?'

It was expressed over 350 years ago by our church fathers at the Synod of Dordt (in the Netherlands). We use the familiar acrostic: TULIP to help us remember what our fathers said the Bible teaches:



Dead in Sin?
T - Total Depravity

That means simply MAN is DEAD. The Bible says that you and I are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-6) unless we are born again. DEAD!!! More than that, the man or woman who is dead in sin hates God, and his 'carnal mind' is 'enmity against God' (Rom. 8:7). His will is stubbornly steeled against God. This Biblical idea changes a lot of modern talk about salvation.

Consider what that means:

1.Can a man do good works then, if he is not a Christian who is born again? No. 'Whatsoever is not of faith is sin' (Rom. 14:23).

2.Can a man want to be born again and follow instructions on 'how to do it?' No, for that would be like saying that a man in a grave can desire to come out of the grave, or follow instructions on how to be made alive. It would be like trying to lure him out of the grave. 'It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing' (John 6:63).


3.Can any man 'accept Christ' as his personal Savior, so that he becomes saved after that? Of course not. Accepting Christ is a good work done only by a Christian. Only AFTER God makes a person alive, can he and will he accept Christ. 'No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him' (John 6:44).


4.Can you 'offer salvation' to anyone? That is surely impossible. One might as well offer food to a dead man than salvation to a dead sinner (Eph. 2:1-2).


ONLY GOD CAN MAKE US ALIVE. AND GOD DOES THAT SOVEREIGNLY - WITHOUT OUR AID, WITHOUT OUR ASKING. From beginning to end, 'Salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9). This is the faith that we preach, because it is Biblical, because it is the FAITH of our fathers, which we love, still living in our hearts, and because it gives God all the glory!

Not My Choice

U - Unconditional Election

This means simply: God chooses to give some people eternal life, without looking for anything good in them as a condition for loving and saving them.

Before any man or woman is born—in fact, before the world was made—God decided who would go to heaven and who would not. Before they did good or bad, God chose some to be His people and rejected others.

'CONDITIONAL election' would mean that God chooses to be His those who first love and choose Him. But the Bible says: 'You have not chosen me, I have chosen you' (John 15:16). (Please also look at Romans 9:11-21.) Acts 13:48 says that 'as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.' Only, when we speak this language is the horse placed before the cart. CONDITIONAL election puts the cart before the horse, because it says that man believes and THEN is ordained to eternal life. Read carefully John 10:26 for another plain 'horse before the cart' passage. Can one imagine what the denial of this doctrine would mean? If we remember that before we are saved, we can do nothing good (John 15:5; Eph. 2:1-6), the only conclusion is that we could never choose God. And never would. And never would be saved.

But God is sovereign and chooses whom He will choose. And after He chooses us, we choose Him daily. All we are and all we have is given us by God.

Again, this is the faith that we preach, because it is Biblical, because it is the faith of our fathers, living still in our hearts, and because it gives God all the glory!!!!

For All Men?

L - Limited Atonement

The great gospel message that so many today are urgently carrying to distant lands is that Christ made atonement with His death. But there are two critical points at which this message is so severely distorted that it no longer carries the gospel message.

THE FIRST DISTORTION concerns what Christ's death did. The Biblical truth of the Atonement is that His death paid for sins. Yet so many today teach that Christ's death was only an example for us to follow, and if one merely follows His example he will be saved. Or it is taught that Christ's death did not actually pay for any specific sins, but made it possible for all sins to be paid for.

But the Bible says that Christ's death on the cross actually paid for sins. Acts 20:28 says that God bought the church with His own blood. See also Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 7:26-27.

THE SECOND DISTORTION of this biblical truth is that Christ died for all men. Some teach that Christ made it possible for all men to be saved. But the questions that must be asked are: 'If Christ died for all men, why are not all men saved?' 'Can not God do what He desires to do?' 'Is there something defective in Christ's death?' 'Must man desire to be saved first?' But a man who is totally depraved can not will to be saved. He hates God and wants nothing to do with Christ's death. So it must not be said that Christ died for all men.

The Bible says that Christ laid down His life for His sheep, and only them (John 10:11). The ATONEMENT is LIMITED to the elect of God. Every sin of every one of Christ's sheep is paid for. Those sins and those alone have been paid for. That is the only gospel because that is the Bible.

Dragged Kicking & Screaming to Heaven?

I - Irresistible Grace

The fourth Biblical truth in the five points of Calvinism teaches that God's grace to save a person cannot be resisted. Grace is God's free and unmerited power to save a person from his sins which would otherwise lead us to hell. Grace brings him to heaven who naturally would end in eternal hell.

That grace is irresistible. That means that if God gives grace to you, there is nothing in the world that you can do to resist it and thwart God's intention to take you to heaven. The certainty of salvation for God's elect is seen in John 6:37 where Jesus says: 'All that the Father hath given me shall come to me ...' There is no doubt that they will be saved. Verse 44 says that those who come to God come because God draws them. Not our will, but God's will is first and powerful.

Now, some ridicule this truth of the Bible and say that it makes man go to heaven against his will. 'He kicks and screams all the way to heaven.' But that is not how the Bible presents God's grace. God makes His people 'willing in the day of His power' (Ps. 110:3). For a wonderful illustration of that truth, just consider the converted Apostle Paul. 'By the grace of God' he was what he was (I Cor. 15:10). And immediately after his conversion he said willingly, 'Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?' (Acts 9:6). That surely was not against his will.

God's grace is sweet and irresistible. He makes us love it and want nothing else. He is as irresistible to us as a husband to his newly-wed bride. Come with us and hear God's wonderful grace proclaimed in Christ any Lord's Day.

Living Like the Devil?P - Preservation of the Saints

The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: 'Once you are saved, you are always saved.'

God's Word is full of proof for this beautiful truth. And though many deny it, and tell you that you can be lost and saved many, many times, and therefore can never be sure of your salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Talking about His elect sheep, Jesus said: 'And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand' (John 10:28). See John 6:39; 17:2, 11-12; Romans 8:37-39; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18, etc., etc.

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men 'carnally secure' in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will 'live like the devil.' There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies 'PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.' Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They 'continue in well-doing.' Anyone who says he can 'live like the devil' has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.' God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be 'scared to heaven.' We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

"If you were to die tonight, where would you spend 'eternity' (sic)?"

I don't know, but I'm scared now so I'd better get some fire insurance from hell.

"Good. I'll read these four spiritual laws to you from this tract, and then I'll lead you in the Finney sinner's prayer. If you repeat after me, you will be saved."

"Oh, wow. Thanks. Now I can be assured that I did something nominal that has ensured my own destiny for all ages; and then I can just go about doing whatever things my flesh wants because I met you and you scared me and you read some stuff on a piece of paper to me and I recited some empty words you said to repeat. Glory to God, I'm saved and now I don't need to do anything for the rest of my life. That was easy, and so comforting. I'm glad I won't be in hell like all those bad people who didn't have some words read to them so they could recite a 20-second meaningless prayer."

 

[Sonnet]

Hope you read this through for an understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.

TULIP: Faith of Our Fathers
By Gritters, Barrett L.

The Calvinists came up with a beautiful acronymn (TULIP) to explain the doctrines of grace.


Is the faith of our fathers living in your life? In your church? We sing the song: 'Faith of our fathers living still ...' and no doubt the faith is living. But the question is, 'Where is that faith living and confessed?' And, 'What is the faith of our fathers?'

It was expressed over 350 years ago by our church fathers at the Synod of Dordt (in the Netherlands). We use the familiar acrostic: TULIP to help us remember what our fathers said the Bible teaches:



Dead in Sin?
T - Total Depravity

That means simply MAN is DEAD. The Bible says that you and I are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-6) unless we are born again. DEAD!!! More than that, the man or woman who is dead in sin hates God, and his 'carnal mind' is 'enmity against God' (Rom. 8:7). His will is stubbornly steeled against God. This Biblical idea changes a lot of modern talk about salvation.

Consider what that means:

1.Can a man do good works then, if he is not a Christian who is born again? No. 'Whatsoever is not of faith is sin' (Rom. 14:23).

2.Can a man want to be born again and follow instructions on 'how to do it?' No, for that would be like saying that a man in a grave can desire to come out of the grave, or follow instructions on how to be made alive. It would be like trying to lure him out of the grave. 'It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing' (John 6:63).


3.Can any man 'accept Christ' as his personal Savior, so that he becomes saved after that? Of course not. Accepting Christ is a good work done only by a Christian. Only AFTER God makes a person alive, can he and will he accept Christ. 'No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him' (John 6:44).


4.Can you 'offer salvation' to anyone? That is surely impossible. One might as well offer food to a dead man than salvation to a dead sinner (Eph. 2:1-2).


ONLY GOD CAN MAKE US ALIVE. AND GOD DOES THAT SOVEREIGNLY - WITHOUT OUR AID, WITHOUT OUR ASKING. From beginning to end, 'Salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9). This is the faith that we preach, because it is Biblical, because it is the FAITH of our fathers, which we love, still living in our hearts, and because it gives God all the glory!

Not My Choice

U - Unconditional Election

This means simply: God chooses to give some people eternal life, without looking for anything good in them as a condition for loving and saving them.

Before any man or woman is born—in fact, before the world was made—God decided who would go to heaven and who would not. Before they did good or bad, God chose some to be His people and rejected others.

'CONDITIONAL election' would mean that God chooses to be His those who first love and choose Him. But the Bible says: 'You have not chosen me, I have chosen you' (John 15:16). (Please also look at Romans 9:11-21.) Acts 13:48 says that 'as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.' Only, when we speak this language is the horse placed before the cart. CONDITIONAL election puts the cart before the horse, because it says that man believes and THEN is ordained to eternal life. Read carefully John 10:26 for another plain 'horse before the cart' passage. Can one imagine what the denial of this doctrine would mean? If we remember that before we are saved, we can do nothing good (John 15:5; Eph. 2:1-6), the only conclusion is that we could never choose God. And never would. And never would be saved.

But God is sovereign and chooses whom He will choose. And after He chooses us, we choose Him daily. All we are and all we have is given us by God.

Again, this is the faith that we preach, because it is Biblical, because it is the faith of our fathers, living still in our hearts, and because it gives God all the glory!!!!

For All Men?

L - Limited Atonement

The great gospel message that so many today are urgently carrying to distant lands is that Christ made atonement with His death. But there are two critical points at which this message is so severely distorted that it no longer carries the gospel message.

THE FIRST DISTORTION concerns what Christ's death did. The Biblical truth of the Atonement is that His death paid for sins. Yet so many today teach that Christ's death was only an example for us to follow, and if one merely follows His example he will be saved. Or it is taught that Christ's death did not actually pay for any specific sins, but made it possible for all sins to be paid for.

But the Bible says that Christ's death on the cross actually paid for sins. Acts 20:28 says that God bought the church with His own blood. See also Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 7:26-27.

THE SECOND DISTORTION of this biblical truth is that Christ died for all men. Some teach that Christ made it possible for all men to be saved. But the questions that must be asked are: 'If Christ died for all men, why are not all men saved?' 'Can not God do what He desires to do?' 'Is there something defective in Christ's death?' 'Must man desire to be saved first?' But a man who is totally depraved can not will to be saved. He hates God and wants nothing to do with Christ's death. So it must not be said that Christ died for all men.

The Bible says that Christ laid down His life for His sheep, and only them (John 10:11). The ATONEMENT is LIMITED to the elect of God. Every sin of every one of Christ's sheep is paid for. Those sins and those alone have been paid for. That is the only gospel because that is the Bible.

Dragged Kicking & Screaming to Heaven?

I - Irresistible Grace

The fourth Biblical truth in the five points of Calvinism teaches that God's grace to save a person cannot be resisted. Grace is God's free and unmerited power to save a person from his sins which would otherwise lead us to hell. Grace brings him to heaven who naturally would end in eternal hell.

That grace is irresistible. That means that if God gives grace to you, there is nothing in the world that you can do to resist it and thwart God's intention to take you to heaven. The certainty of salvation for God's elect is seen in John 6:37 where Jesus says: 'All that the Father hath given me shall come to me ...' There is no doubt that they will be saved. Verse 44 says that those who come to God come because God draws them. Not our will, but God's will is first and powerful.

Now, some ridicule this truth of the Bible and say that it makes man go to heaven against his will. 'He kicks and screams all the way to heaven.' But that is not how the Bible presents God's grace. God makes His people 'willing in the day of His power' (Ps. 110:3). For a wonderful illustration of that truth, just consider the converted Apostle Paul. 'By the grace of God' he was what he was (I Cor. 15:10). And immediately after his conversion he said willingly, 'Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?' (Acts 9:6). That surely was not against his will.

God's grace is sweet and irresistible. He makes us love it and want nothing else. He is as irresistible to us as a husband to his newly-wed bride. Come with us and hear God's wonderful grace proclaimed in Christ any Lord's Day.

Living Like the Devil?P - Preservation of the Saints

The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: 'Once you are saved, you are always saved.'

God's Word is full of proof for this beautiful truth. And though many deny it, and tell you that you can be lost and saved many, many times, and therefore can never be sure of your salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Talking about His elect sheep, Jesus said: 'And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand' (John 10:28). See John 6:39; 17:2, 11-12; Romans 8:37-39; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18, etc., etc.

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men 'carnally secure' in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will 'live like the devil.' There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies 'PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.' Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They 'continue in well-doing.' Anyone who says he can 'live like the devil' has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.' God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be 'scared to heaven.' We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace.

A dreadful distortion of scripture.

 

[Cross Reference]

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men 'carnally secure' in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will 'live like the devil.' There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians.

If they are not Christians then there can be no conviction of sin unto repentance when/if such a time might come. And if they are Christian then the end of them will worse than if they never received salvation unless repentance is found of God.

 

[Sonnet]

"If you were to die tonight, where would you spend 'eternity' (sic)?"

I don't know, but I'm scared now so I'd better get some fire insurance from hell.

"Good. I'll read these four spiritual laws to you from this tract, and then I'll lead you in the Finney sinner's prayer. If you repeat after me, you will be saved."

"Oh, wow. Thanks. Now I can be assured that I did something nominal that has ensured my own destiny for all ages; and then I can just go about doing whatever things my flesh wants because I met you and you scared me and you read some stuff on a piece of paper to me and I recited some empty words you said to repeat. Glory to God, I'm saved and now I don't need to do anything for the rest of my life. That was easy, and so comforting. I'm glad I won't be in hell like all those bad people who didn't have some words read to them so they could recite a 20-second meaningless prayer."

Aren't you going to respond?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Aren't you going to respond?

I'm not sure what else there is to say to you, since you've already ignored so much.

It's this simple...

The original creation was by God's Monergism. It was dysfunctionalized by spiritual death and the onset of sin.

The new creation is resurrection to a qualitative new man (NOT a quantitatively new creature). So whatever appears to be Synergism is merely whatever is latently functional within man from the original creation.

No man can claim God's original OR new creation is contingent upon mutuality between God and man. Whatever is within man that seems to cooperate with God is from God's original Monergistic creation.

How hard is that, really? Unless the pride of life is involved, of course. Just because Calvinists use too much Incarnational and creational terminology and projected timelines upon God, it doesn't mean the core of what they're insufficiently trying to represent isn't valid to whatever degree.

God does NOT need YOUR cooperation for His Rhema to save you. In Romans 10:17, hearing is a noun, better translated as "report" (like in the preceding verse). The report of fireworks is not an active hearing by the human auditory sense. The human auditory sense does not cooperate with the fireworks explosion in any manner, including its response. The report needs nothing from a human to be a report. Hearing is the report, not action based upon it.

You've self-determined what you insist scripture says, and without having any idea what the subtleties of grammar represent to the contrary. There's not much left to say, even though I could spend hours more in detail and minutiae. You have applied your will to not believing.

 

[Nang]

A dreadful distortion of scripture.

No, these are words from a wise and good man . . .

By so judging, you reveal a dreadful distortion of your own heart and mind.

May God be gracious to you, heal your heart, and grant you repentance!

 

[Eagles Wings]

A dreadful distortion of scripture.

An un-believer can not know the Word of God because the un-believer does not know God. The un-regenerate have no credence whatsoever to judge another's profession/confession of faith, as has been done in this thread.

Only the believer in the triune God, says with much joy:

Psalm 119:105

 

[Cross Reference]

A dreadful distortion of scripture.

Yes, sadly so. It is often called the understanding of the "white knuckle club". I.e., Get saved and hang on til you die because everything now that comes down the pike is the of the devil.. and they don't "know" God to know the difference.

 

[Sonnet]

An un-believer can not know the Word of God because the un-believer does not know God. The un-regenerate have no credence whatsoever to judge another's profession/confession of faith, as has been done in this thread.

Only the believer in the triune God, says with much joy:

Psalm 119:105

Since believers also vehemently disagree with you view then I'm not sure your point is valid.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Since believers also vehemently disagree with you view then I'm not sure your point is valid.

My comment was meant for you because you claim to be in un-belief, Sonnet. Regardless of the theological viewpoint, hermeneutic, epistolomolgy, etc., you claim to be an un-believer so the bottom line is, you have no credibility in discerning the Word of God. You have chosen to reject God's light for your path...No?

 

[Sonnet]

I'm not sure what else there is to say to you, since you've already ignored so much.

I responded, but you didn't.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4721952&viewfull=1#post4721952

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4721970&viewfull=1#post4721970

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4721972&viewfull=1#post4721972

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4722686&viewfull=1#post4722686

It's this simple...

The original creation was by God's Monergism. It was dysfunctionalized by spiritual death and the onset of sin.

The new creation is resurrection to a qualitative new man (NOT a quantitatively new creature). So whatever appears to be Synergism is merely whatever is latently functional within man from the original creation.

No man can claim God's original OR new creation is contingent upon mutuality between God and man. Whatever is within man that seems to cooperate with God is from God's original Monergistic creation.

You appear, as I've said before, to limit God's ability to create creature that have true worth - creature's who's choice are not a charade.

How hard is that, really? Unless the pride of life is involved, of course. Just because Calvinists use too much Incarnational and creational terminology and projected timelines upon God, it doesn't mean the core of what they're insufficiently trying to represent isn't valid to whatever degree.


God does need YOUR cooperation for His Rhema to save you. In Romans 10:17, hearing is a noun, better translated as "report" (like in the preceding verse). The report of fireworks is not an active hearing by the human auditory sense. The human auditory sense does not cooperate with the fireworks explosion in any manner, including its response. The report needs nothing from a human to be a report. Hearing is the report, not action based upon it.

And pisteuó is a verb - to have faith.

You've self-determined what you insist scripture says, and without having any idea what the subtleties of grammar represent to the contrary.

Thus far the translations do not reflect your view which appears to be a minority.

There's not much left to say, even though I could spend hours more in detail and minutiae. You have applied your will to not believing.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Only the believer in the triune God, says with much joy:

Psalm 119:105

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So drop that only stuff.

 

[Sonnet]

My comment was meant for you because you claim to be in un-belief, Sonnet. Regardless of the theological viewpoint, hermeneutic, epistolomolgy, etc., you claim to be an un-believer so the bottom line is, you have no credibility in discerning the Word of God. You have chosen to reject God's light for your path...No?

Since my view is reflected in some other believer's views then your point is academic.

And not all believers are true believers anyway.

 

[Sonnet]

Only the believer in the triune God, says with much joy:

Psalm 119:105

The believer is supposed to believe in Christ. Christ spoke of His crucifixion as being just as the lifting up of the bronze serpent in the wilderness which provided for all those in need of a cure. Not some, but all.

You don't believe Jesus.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Since my view is reflected in some other believer's views then your point is academic.

And not all believers are true believers anyway.

My point is personal to you, as you claim un-belief. It is not trivial.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

"If you were to die tonight, where would you spend 'eternity' (sic)?"

I don't know, but I'm scared now so I'd better get some fire insurance from hell.

"Good. I'll read these four spiritual laws to you from this tract, and then I'll lead you in the Finney sinner's prayer. If you repeat after me, you will be saved."

"Oh, wow. Thanks. Now I can be assured that I did something nominal that has ensured my own destiny for all ages; and then I can just go about doing whatever things my flesh wants because I met you and you scared me and you read some stuff on a piece of paper to me and I recited some empty words you said to repeat. Glory to God, I'm saved and now I don't need to do anything for the rest of my life. That was easy, and so comforting. I'm glad I won't be in hell like all those bad people who didn't have some words read to them so they could recite a 20-second meaningless prayer."

Fear is the beginning of knowledge not the end.

No prayer is meaningless.

 

[Sonnet]

Yes, sadly so. It is often called the understanding of the "white knuckle club". I.e., Get saved and hang on til you die because everything now that comes down the pike is the of the devil.. and they don't "know" God to know the difference.

Pike?

 

[Sonnet]

My point is personal to you, as you claim un-belief. It is not trivial.

You are free to ignore me if you wish. My point is that not all believers are true believers.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I responded, but you didn't.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4721952&viewfull=1#post4721952

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4721970&viewfull=1#post4721970

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4721972&viewfull=1#post4721972

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ot-universal&p=4722686&viewfull=1#post4722686



You appear, as I've said before, to limit God's ability to create creature that have true worth - creature's who's choice are not a charade.



And pisteuó is a verb - to have faith.



Thus far the translations do not reflect your view which appears to be a minority.

You've determined man has some capability of cooperation that is beyond God's original creation. The worth for man you are seeking is there, and its resurrection by God into functionality once again.

You deny God's resurrection power by combining your false sense of worth for man as equal enough to God that His Son is not even necessary.

How can you, as one claiming faithlessness, presume to even interpret the binary-based false dichotomies of Christian division? Why would you presume to be resurrected and have a renewed mind to do so?

Why do you sit in judgment of God from your unregenerate heart and mind? Why must God meet your standards of insistence that man is capable of cooperating in a creation that has always been Monergistic?

What worth does man as creation have that is somehow innate to himself apart from God as the Monergistic Creator?

Just because Arminians agree with you in their own pride of life and ignorance, it doesn't matter. Your Modernism-sculpted heart and mind is not excused because so many alleged professing Believers concur with your assessments.

Maybe you can tell us what this quality is within man that is beyond God's original creative Monergism. What is it that makes man capable of cooperation with God for salvation that He didn't create within man originally? Please be specific.