ECT God does NOT grant eternal life

[Cross Reference]

God does grant eternal life to anyone reconciled to Him anymore than He does not grant eternal death to those who die not reconciled to Him. It is what it is. Heaven is the is the only place a reconciled soul can go upon departing his flesh.

The soul of man is a completely independent entity when joined or apart from the body, desired by God to be in complete union with Him. No flesh can please God. When the soul of a man refuses to grant God His desire, God has no choice but separate Himself from it which leaves it in eternal despair. (cf Gen 3:21 KJV) God is bound by the demand laid upon Him by His own Holiness, i.e., no sin; unreconciled soul, can stand in His Presence (Ex 33:20-23 KJV).

So now the issue becomes, what happens to the 'everliving' unreconciled soul of man that when separated from its counterpart body which it was joined to until its physical death? "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) leaving the soul of man that cannot die to be atoned for lest it remain eternally separated from the presence of God to aimlessly ‘drift’ in the blackest darkness downward as being in a “bottomless pit” with complete sensation as to what is happening to it.

“And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the “bottomless pit”. Revelation 9:1ff (KJV)


I believe it is bottomless because God has made no place on earth to abide a ”falling” man seperated from his body, either in this life or the next. Hence, no contact, no remembrance of them in the new Heaven and Earth. (cf1Sam28:7)

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". Romans 8:9-11 (KJV)

In this is the word death that should never be misunderstood to be a biological death where it ends in a sudden fashion but, a spiritual one that cannot ever end because of the make up of man’s existence decreed to be in the likeness of God and we know, God cannot die. Therefore, when speaking of death in man it is meant to be understood as a departure away from the presence of God not unlike Lucifer who was cast out of Heaven; away from the Holy presence of God.

Question: Did Lucifer actually die? No! Did his soul die? Yes. Does he still exist? Again, yes. But for Satan, there will no resurrection but eternal chains. His body is not a human body, not subject to decay.

Same as man. How come because his soul can't die and his body subjected to decay, resides in dust in the earth.

Why not ask yourself the question why God prevented Adam from eating of the tree of Life after he transgressed?

If I said that had he eaten of it would have placed eternal chains upon him and all his progeny; chains that could never be removed by God because he would have become as Lucifer and worse . . . . . Who is greater than God wnich would be needed to reverse it? There could have been no redemption for mankind, ever? Now re-read, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame Hebrews 6:6 (KJV), to see why the need to have Adam removed from the garden that he not eat of the "tree of Life".

Where could repentance [if possible] have stemmed when there would have been not even the slightess desire for it? “Vanity”, the law of the flesh, would have become the eternal god for all of mankind. Reconciliation with a loving God would have been impossible.


Now, bring this all up to the NT to understand what Jesus was attempting to convey to Nicodemus re new birth, for him to know and to understand the responsibility that would have been laid upon him upon receiving it, Paul was attempting the convey in Heb.6:1-6 KJV.

Jesus said: 'He who starts to build the house be sure to first count the cost to understand what the issues are if he doesn't'

 

[jamie]

Leaving the soul of man that cannot die...

Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins shall die."

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul who sins shall die."

Souls can be destroyed.

Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

A destroyed soul is not viable, it is dead, non-living, non-functional, and without a body there are no sensory inputs, no feelings, no senses, gone.

 

[Cross Reference]

Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins shall die."

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul who sins shall die."

Souls can be destroyed.

Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

A destroyed soul is not viable, it is dead, non-living, non-functional, and without a body there are no sensory inputs, no feelings, no senses, gone.

You have a reading issue.

 

[TweetyBird]

Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins shall die."

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul who sins shall die."

Souls can be destroyed.

Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

A destroyed soul is not viable, it is dead, non-living, non-functional, and without a body there are no sensory inputs, no feelings, no senses, gone.

The second death is eternal torment for the soul. Soul can also refer to a person or animal.


H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

 

[Cross Reference]

The second death is eternal torment for the soul.

This is true because it happens to be the only habitat possible for a soul which cannot die and is not reconciled to God by Jesus Christ. A place where a physical body, now reunited with its soul, will never again be terminated by separation, where one part wanders in darkness while the other laid in the dust of the earth. The parts are once again made alive unto their particular distinctions to experience whatever it can only be that awaits them being eternally FAR apart from any presence of the love or life of God.

 

[jamie]

The second death is eternal torment for the soul.

In what way? Where is this place of eternal torment, I want to check it out.

 

[jamie]

The second death is eternal torment for the soul.

Why? For what purpose?

 

[Cross Reference]

Why? For what purpose?

Why? Because it can be no other way. There is no "in between" AFTER God has been removed from life. Even in this life of wickedness, God has never left irrespective of how conditions against Him became. Therefore, there is no such thing as "hell of earth" while the existence of God remains. When He is removed, because of the realized rejection by rebellious man the world over, all hell will have free reign in everyone's life. God is never the one Who torments anyone.

In that day when all things get summed up in Jesus Christ will the great separation of those who don't make the cut will "be cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth"...

 

[jamie]

"be cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth"...

Isn't this a metaphor for death?

 

[TweetyBird]

In what way? Where is this place of eternal torment, I want to check it out.

Just a few verses - there are more ...

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jude 1
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Cross Reference]

Isn't this a metaphor for death?

Why not let it say what it says? What does anyone gain by wanting to change it to mean something less or greater than what how it is written and intended to be understood? I see a satanic influence behind those who make such attempts..

Try this parable:

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:9-14 (KJV)

 

[Rosenritter]

Isn't this a metaphor for death?

Psa 112:10 KJV
(10) The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Not so much a metaphor for death, but a quote from Psalms about the reaction to the judgment before death.

 

[Rosenritter]

Why? For what purpose?

Watching this thread should be amusing. Cross Reference was trying to sell this "God does not grant eternal life" spiel in another thread but that didn't work so he made one here.

Rom 6:21-23 KJV
(21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[jamie]

Watching this thread should be amusing. Cross Reference was trying to sell this "God does not grant eternal life" spiel in another thread but that didn't work so he made one here.

Cross Reference seems to believe death is another form of life. I don't get it since the dead know nothing.

 

[Cross Reference]

Cross Reference seems to believe death is another form of life. I don't get it since the dead know nothing.

All the dead will be resurrected. What does that say to you? Resurrected to what?

Jamie, if you expect your questions to be answered by me you will ask with sincerity and answer my questions with sincerity.

 

[Rosenritter]

All the dead will be resurrected. What does that say to you? Resurrected to what?

Jamie, if you expect your questions to be answered by me you will ask with sincerity and answer my questions with sincerity.

Jamie seems sincere to me, she just uses less words. I have a question for you Cross Reference. Actually a couple, since I am curious. If the dead will be resurrected to life, what are they being resurrected to life from?

 

[Clete]

God does grant eternal life to anyone reconciled to Him anymore than He does not grant eternal death to those who die not reconciled to Him. It is what it is. Heaven is the is the only place a reconciled soul can go upon departing his flesh. The soul of man is a completely independent entity apart from the body, desired by God to be in complete union with Him. No flesh can please God. When the soul of a man refuses to grant God His desire, God has no choice but separate Himself from it which leaves it in eternal despair. (cf Gen 3:21 KJV) God is bound by the demand laid upon Him by His own Holiness, i.e., no sin; unreconciled soul, can stand in His Presence (Ex 33:20-23 KJV).

So now the issue becomes, what happens to the 'everliving unreconciled soul of man that when separated from its 'counterpart body' that was joined with it by God’s gifted "breath of Life"; human spirit, which upon the death of the body, is returned to God Who gave it? "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

Leaving the soul of man that cannot die to be atoned for lest it remain eternally separated from the presence of God to aimlessly ‘drift’ in the blackest darkness downward as being in “bottomless pit” with complete sensation as to what is happening to it. “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the “bottomless pit”. Revelation 9:1ff (KJV) 

I believe it is bottomless because God has made no place on earth to abide ”falling” man, either in this life or the next. Hence, no contact, no remembrance of them in the new Heaven and Earth. (cf1Sam28:7)

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". Romans 8:9-11 (KJV)

In this is the word death never to be misunderstood to be a biological death where it ends in a sudden fashion but, a spiritual one that cannot ever end because of make up of man’s existence decreed to be in the likeness of God and we know, God cannot die. Therefore, when speaking of death in man it is meant to be understood as a departure away from the presence of God not unlike Lucifer who was cast out of Heaven; away from the Holy presence of God.
Question: Did Lucifer actually die? Did his soul die? Yes. Does he still exist? Again, yes. But for Satan, there will no resurrection but eternal chains.
Same as man. How come because his soul can't die and his body subjected to decay, resides in dust in the earth.

Why not ask yourself the question why God prevented Adam from eating of the tree of Life after he transgressed?

If I said that had he eaten of it would have placed none redeemable chains upon him and all his progeny; chains that could never be removed be God because he would have become as God . . . . but, without Holiness. Who is greater than God? Who could have redeemed him? Now re-read, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:6 (KJV)


Where could repentance have stemmed when there would have been not even the desire for it? “Vanity”, the law of the flesh, now being their eternal god. Reconciliation with God would have been impossible.


Now, bring this all up to the NT to understand what Jesus was attempting to convey to Nicodemus re new birth, for him to understand in his desire to know to also understand the responsibility that would have been laid upon him in the matter upon receiving it, Paul was attempting the convey in Heb.6:1-6 KJV.

This all seems somewhat semantic to me.

As you say, death does not equal non-existence but rather a separation. Physical death is the separation of our soul/spirit from our physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of our soul/spirit from God.

Granting that, then a man who is dead in sin (i.e. separated from God) is brought to new life in Christ upon believing the gospel and placing his faith in the finished work of Christ on his behalf. How is that not "granting eternal life"?

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[jamie]

All the dead will be resurrected. What does that say to you? Resurrected to what?

You said, "Leaving the soul of man that cannot die ..."

A soul that cannot die need not resurrected from death if it's not dead.

Maybe we should define soul.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Death is defined in scripture as the separation of spirit and body.

James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

When a person dies the spirit returns to the Father who gave it and the body decomposes.

So what about the soul. Soul is translated from the Greek psuche and refers to the mind which is composed of a human brain and a human spirit. When a person dies the human spirit returns to the Father. A flatlined brain processes no information and is not conscious of death.

For the dead their resurrection seems to them to be the next instant in their life. Their spirit is placed in a new body and they live.

 

[Nang]

This all seems somewhat semantic to me.

Actually no . . the subject of death is dogma.

As you say, death does not equal non-existence but rather a separation.

Neither definition is correct.

Death is the state of being "non-functional." All souls born of Adam, are spiritually non-functional ("spiritually dead") and all souls/bodies eventually suffer biological death because of Adam, (that is simply the manifestation of spiritual death).

a man who is dead in sin (i.e. separated from God)

A mad dead in sin is spiritually non-functional and spiritually incapacitated . . which state of being, precludes any fellowship with God, or any inner knowledge of God.

is brought to new life in Christ upon believing the gospel and placing his faith in the finished work of Christ on his behalf. How is that not "granting eternal life"?

It is! This is regeneration of the soul of man; enabling and proving through confession of belief in the saving power and Gospel of Jesus Christ that results in everlasting life.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​

Amen . .

 

[Clete]

Actually no . . the subject of death is dogma.

If you meant to equate death with Calvinism then you've finally said something I can agree with.