From chat: On Jesus and Homosexuality

Tattooed Theist

New member
so we Christians don't have to pay any attention to those silly mosaic laws given by Moses?

you know - the ones that say "thou shalt not"?

Maybe you should ask Jesus.
Hint hint, the "Greatest Commandment."
Love God, love each other - everything else falls in line with that.

Mosaic law was given to the Jews, was it not?
Christians didn't exist.
What is the point of Jesus if not to bring in the new covenant?


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Tattooed Theist

New member
From chat: On Jesus and Homosexuality

There are different parts of the Mosaic laws, some are universal and for all-time, some are Sacrificial, and Jesus fulfilled all of those requirements, some are cleanliness laws meant to keep Israel from dying off by disease, and we have a hard time understanding them at times, but God understood germs, so He commanded things that no doubt seemed dumb to Israelite's at the time. Like breaking all plates except metal plates if meat had been eaten off them. Not eating pork because it spoiled easily and is not good for you. Not touching a dead body, and if you did being quarantined for 7 days etc. All of the laws were just, because God is just, and God had his reasoning's. If one allows others to say God's old laws are unjust, I find we lose the battle right there, if God was ever unjust, then hes always unjust, we have to learn to defend Gods laws which many decry as barbaric.

Please tell me exactly how we know which are in an which are out?
There is no specification in scripture.





I actually argue the opposite of the anti-homosexuality crowd here because I do not think Paul is speaking about Homosexuality in Romans chapter 1, I mean he is speaking about homosexuality, but he is saying it is an EFFECT of men not giving God His due, not worshiping Him as God, and because of this they are cursed with all manner of sins, like homosexuality. That's how I read it anyway, I never saw that until about a year ago, God curses us with Homosexuality when we deny His Godhead. And that actually fits, we kicked God out of our schools and out of the public square, and now we are cursed with all manner of sexually transmitted diseases, homosexuality, shacking, unwed birth rates have skyrocketed etc.

God curses us??
Oh man, I see that you and I see through entirely different theological lenses.

So I will opt to remove myself from this conversation.
Take care man.


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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Maybe you should ask Jesus.
Hint hint, the "Greatest Commandment."
Love God, love each other - everything else falls in line with that.

Mosaic law was given to the Jews, was it not?
Christians didn't exist.
What is the point of Jesus if not to bring in the new covenant?



Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



God wrote His law in our hearts

and it sure don't say "go ahead, be a fag, be a pedophile, be an adulterer - it's all good"
 

Tattooed Theist

New member

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



God wrote His law in our hearts

and it sure don't say "go ahead, be a fag, be a pedophile, be an adulterer - it's all good"

I removed your obnoxious size edit for everyone's sake.

Anyways, yes. We see that verse also quoted in Hebrew... to the Jews...

Your ending, just shows you didn't read my initial post.
I do not support sin.
I also do not support adherence to Mosaic law, in which YOU sir - are no better than a "fag."

so pick your poison.
You are JUST as sinful as a "fag," or are you going to listen to Jesus and understand what a New Covenant is and minister to the homosexuals so that they might find life also, as you've found in Christ?

Regardless we are no better than anyone else, your sin is no better than theirs.
How you treat them, however, shows whether you actually know Christ or not.

I support homosexuals. They are made in the image of God.
I do not support homosexuality. For it is not God's design or plan.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
i clipped all your rest and focused on the important part:




How you treat them, however, shows whether you actually know Christ or not.

I support homosexuals.

your concern for the potential hurt feelings of those who wish to continue in sin is touching

go ahead - hold their hands on their way to hell - don't you dare ruffle their precious sensibilities by telling them what God thinks about their disgusting habits
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
I mean he is speaking about homosexuality, but he is saying it is an EFFECT of men not giving God His due, not worshiping Him as God, and because of this they are cursed with all manner of sins, like homosexuality. That's how I read it anyway, I never saw that until about a year ago, God curses us with Homosexuality when we deny His Godhead. And that actually fits, we kicked God out of our schools and out of the public square, and now we are cursed with all manner of sexually transmitted diseases, homosexuality, shacking, unwed birth rates have skyrocketed etc.

Agreed, they have been given over to that sin, because they refused the love of the truth.
 

clefty

New member
Matthew 5:17

If you disregard Jesus bringing in the new covenant by doing away with the Old then you are tied to all 611 mosaic laws.


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So one covenant does away with the other does it? Abraham's did away with Noah's, Noah's with Adam's and so on?

If so, why did He preface with "do not think I have come to destroy" that would be a contradiction...

He don't stutter or make mistakes right?

Or maybe you are mistaken to what Is meant by the word "fulfill"

Doing away with something is destroying it...no matter how nice you say it...He said don't think He came to do that...

Does one destroy the recipe when one fulfills its requirements?

Do I destroy the laws of the land when I as a good citizen fulfill my obligations to be a citizen in good standing?

Do the rules of the game no longer apply to another player when I fulfill them?

What is fulfilled is payment to the debt of sin...the unchanging laws remain to point it out...

Covenants are contracts with various signers...not the terms themselves...

The signers were new...not the laws
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Maybe you should ask Jesus.
Hint hint, the "Greatest Commandment."
Love God, love each other - everything else falls in line with that.

Mosaic law was given to the Jews, was it not?
Christians didn't exist.
What is the point of Jesus if not to bring in the new covenant?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

That still doesnt remove the law, the purpose of the law is still in effect.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the Law sin? By no means! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the Law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the Law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 7:8
But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the Law, sin is dead.

The law still declares men guilty before God and shows our need for a Savior.

Jesus- Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Most of traditional Christianity is a misinterpretation. God created us in his image and likeness: infinite and eternal. Instead what we have is man making God in his own likeness, a figure named Jesus. Jesus is a metaphor for the soul. He is symbolic of the infinite eternal part of us. The traditional interpretation has been conjured up by a group of men and passed off as the word of God. It may be inspired by God but the real word is written in our hearts, not in the Bible.

Sounds like something a hippie would say.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Good luck with 613 mosaic laws......

Good luck with 613 mosaic laws......

Matthew 5:17

If you disregard Jesus bringing in the new covenant by doing away with the Old then you are tied to all 611 mosaic laws.


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Indeed,....and even that was too burdensome for most Jews, let alone 'christians' who came along later piggy-backing off the OT, cherry-picking various passages in support of their movement. As TT notes, all those laws were not written for Gentiles, and even the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus prescribed 'laws' for Gentile believers in the new Jesus movement, that they only follow at least 4 fundamental rules (see Jerusalem Council), beyond the universal rule of love, which is the law that fulfills all laws anyways. In current Christian bibles, the OT is pretty much a fossil museum or encyclopedia with perhaps a few moral codes or universal principles hinted at in type and shadow, while the NT is supposed to be a more clear revelation of grace consummating with the teachings of Jesus himself (even those have been trumped by Paul according to some :rolleyes:).

However,....the Jewish/Christian riff and paradoxical relationship still exists as an anomaly...there being various explanations or resolutions for their differences, at least when seen from a purely traditional-orthodox Jewish and Christian perspective. The sundry messianic movements have attempted to bridge the gap between orthodox Jewish and liberal Christian theologies. (Hebrew roots ;) )

While the natural procreative order is obviously archetyped in male-female unions, this does not negate or disqualify the value or meaning of homosexual relationships, or transgendered souls, since each have their own place
. The prohibitions against same-sex intercourse referred to the idol worship of pagan gods performed in their temples or sacred groves which often included male and female prostitutes whose sexual acts were 'offerings' made unto their gods. Yahweh, being a jealous god refused any kind of worship like what was given to pagan gods, prohibiting his people (priests primarily) from engaging in such rites. The 'context' indicates acts of worship that are idolatrous...hence their penalty. Seems more like a scare-tactic since very few or no executions are even recorded in scripture, as far as I know....for homosexual unions. If any have any accounts, feel free to share them. Most of the laws and penalties in the OT are even interpreted 'symbolically' today by many modern day Jews, so once again....religions of the book hold onto their 'relics'.

David and Jonathan shared a love even greater or more peculiar than that shared between a man and a woman. - while this may not have included sexual relations, its there none-the-less. The fact remains that God loves all His children regardless of their sexual orientation or gender-identification. In a more purely spiritual sense, our mystical union with God in Christ transcends gender altogether, although our relationship to gender remains but a feature of the soul's expression of love....so that our expression of love with any soul, regardless of their gender becomes as an act of worship, and if joined by love there can be no sin in it.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
David and Jonathan shared a love even greater or more peculiar than that shared between a man and a woman. - while this may not have included sexual relations, its there none-the-less.

Thats called agape love, its like brotherly love in a spiritual way, have you never heard the term blood is thicker than water? Thats basically what is meant there. They shared the same Father - our Heavenly Father and recognized the kinship in each other.


The fact remains that God loves all His children regardless of their sexual orientation or gender-identification.

Loves yes, but will judge and those without Christ, will perish.


In a more purely spiritual sense, our mystical union with God in Christ transcends gender altogether, although our relationship to gender remains but a feature of the soul's expression of love....so that our expression of love with any soul, regardless of their gender becomes as an act of worship, and if joined by love there can be no sin in it.

We have no relationship with God apart from Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

We are not all "automatically" Gods children.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but born of God.…

If one has not become a child of God via the gospel of salvation ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), they are still a child of the devil.

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Lets dig in......

Lets dig in......

From the chat box:

freelight: Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.

Hi A4T and all following,

Indeed I wrote the above to illustrate a point, and it was also tongue in cheek to ruffle the feathers of more die hard fundamentalists. Some old stew pots are so crusted over, they need a good stir :)

Anyway, to freelight:

1) Jesus is God, and never removed the commandment on homosexual relations or adultery.

To this I say, the assumption that Jesus is God really doesn't help out here. All you can show is that Jesus accepted the Genesis account of a man marrying a woman, that being the original pattern of procreative union to beget human offspring, and that naturally this union would be a 'marriage' instituted as a pattern for human society. - that is if you believe the gospel account are actually his words. In any case,....since Jesus spoke of eunuchs, these may refer to homosexuals, if this is the case,...homosexuality itself is NOT condemned by Jesus. See here.

Leviticus 18:22
'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

You'll note if you read the above 'in context' it refers to idol worship where homosexuality was practiced, so its the idolatrous act of worshipping other gods via such practice that is being prohibited.

See: Shrine Prostitutes - Is THAT what Moses was talking about in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13?


1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to nor perform homosexual acts,

Important to note that the English word 'homosexual' is not indicated in the original greek. The complex matter of how to interpret this passage is explored here.

2) Jesus also defined marriage clearly (a man and a woman), and its intent all the way back to the beginning see Matthew Chapter 19.
4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.

There is no need to define the many myriad of things that marriage isnt, once what it is, has been made clear.

Of course the male-female union indicates the natural procreative order, as both are needed to procreate. This doesn't necessarily annul or reject any homosexual relationships. What one qualifies as 'marriage' is another subject. Also look at what Jesus taught about eunuchs....eunuchs 'could' refer to homosexuals ;)

3) Unmarried relations are fornication, and adultery and these things also are stated in the new testament.

Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond these essential requirements: 29 You must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.”

Depends one how one defines 'fornication'. Just being a 'homosexual' does not make one a 'fornicator'. How do we define 'sexual immmorality'? - beyond any relationship to marriage, it comes down to how one defines what is 'moral' or 'immoral'.

The bible is clear, on what marriage is and what is and isnt sexual immorality. Nowhere was that done away with, and Jesus even clearly defined marriage and its intent.

I don't know that the Bible is so clear, and some things written only pertain to one group of people, a particular culture or dispensation, so its kinda up for grabs beyond some universal set of laws or principles that applies to all peoples and all times.
Theres more to the story here,....so I'd keep an open mind to research.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You, are the ignorant one. I've been here 7 days and all I've seen you do is put people on your ignore list and whine about being superior in knowledge - not to mention telling people they aren't "True Believers." I'll take a page out of your book, "Welcome to my ignore list," you are the first and hopefully the last to make it there.


:cheers:

:chuckle: Bye.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Laws given to a specific people for a specific time.........

Laws given to a specific people for a specific time.........

There are different parts of the Mosaic laws, some are universal and for all-time, some are Sacrificial, and Jesus fulfilled all of those requirements, some are cleanliness laws meant to keep Israel from dying off by disease, and we have a hard time understanding them at times, but God understood germs, so He commanded things that no doubt seemed dumb to Israelite's at the time. Like breaking all plates except metal plates if meat had been eaten off them. Not eating pork because it spoiled easily and is not good for you. Not touching a dead body, and if you did being quarantined for 7 days etc. All of the laws were just, because God is just, and God had his reasoning's. If one allows others to say God's old laws are unjust, I find we lose the battle right there, if God was ever unjust, then hes always unjust, we have to learn to defend Gods laws which many decry as barbaric.

Some are obsolete as well,...so pick your cherry :)

Also, as I shared earlier,...can you share on record how many people were ever 'killed' for committing homosexual acts per Yahweh's command? ;) - note as I shared earlier with supporting articles, that this was a rule given within the context of acts performed during idol worship. If you want to claim this particular rule, you'll have to accept and abide by all the other levitical laws as well,....but that might be perhaps a bit too 'legatistic' for you? :)

Consider the 'cultural-context' of the OT/NT,...it can do wonders......

Can one be gay and Christian?
 

Lilstu

New member
Did Jesus make homosexuals or did they make themselves?
Why do you suppose people would be homosexuals and face terrific prejudice from straight society?
Do you think maybe homosexuals have a brain defect that steers them towards homosexuality?
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
a bundle of sticks........

a bundle of sticks........

God wrote His law in our hearts

and it sure don't say "go ahead, be a fag, be a pedophile, be an adulterer - it's all good"


If the fundamental and primary law is LOVE,...then all things expressed within the context of love's will and nature, will be 'lawful' unto itself. This would include all relationships between all souls, no matter their orientation or gender-identification. Don't forget "in Christ there is neither male or female".
 

Tattooed Theist

New member
i clipped all your rest and focused on the important part:






your concern for the potential hurt feelings of those who wish to continue in sin is touching

go ahead - hold their hands on their way to hell - don't you dare ruffle their precious sensibilities by telling them what God thinks about their disgusting habits


You very obviously dont understand what missionary work, or evangelism is.
:nono:
 

Tattooed Theist

New member
So one covenant does away with the other does it? Abraham's did away with Noah's, Noah's with Adam's and so on?

If so, why did He preface with "do not think I have come to destroy" that would be a contradiction...

He don't stutter or make mistakes right?

Or maybe you are mistaken to what Is meant by the word "fulfill"

Doing away with something is destroying it...no matter how nice you say it...He said don't think He came to do that...

Does one destroy the recipe when one fulfills its requirements?

Do I destroy the laws of the land when I as a good citizen fulfill my obligations to be a citizen in good standing?

Do the rules of the game no longer apply to another player when I fulfill them?

What is fulfilled is payment to the debt of sin...the unchanging laws remain to point it out...

Covenants are contracts with various signers...not the terms themselves...

The signers were new...not the laws


All this can be answered with one question.

Do you uphold Mosaic Law?
If you accept that we are still held to it, then I sure hope you adhere to all the laws :)
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Do you think maybe homosexuals have a brain defect that steers them towards homosexuality?

I see it as a psychological malady, not as a physiological problem. In other words, the problem is in the mind, not the brain.
 
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