Faith Healing vs Modern Medicine

[Squeaky]

The signs spoken of are raising the dead, drinking poison but not being harmed, and being bitten by poisonous snakes without being harmed. Do those signs follow you? Be honest.

I said
Have you seen the snake dancers in Tennessee? Its a religion that does just that. They actually dance with rattle snakes, and drink poison. I have seen a special on TV about every 5 or 6 years.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't personally know any individual that has a specific gift of healing, but if James is correct, there should be (more?) healing in the church :

Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:13-16

This doesn't indicate a specific gift of healing - but rather that the prayers of men who are faithful are of great value to the body of Christ. Not that healing is automatic (that is, because someone with a specific gift is there) - but that there is an avenue in the church to address physical ailments. This doesn't discount using medicine - but it does seem to indicate that the mindset of the believer is to seek God (I would say first) for His healing.

Yes, "and let them pray over him," shows that it's through prayer that we may be healed. Unlike in the early church where a man had the gift of healing. There are no "healers" today, but God is certainly able to hear the prayers of His people.

 

[glorydaz]

I said
Have you seen the snake dancers in Tennessee? Its a religion that does just that. They actually dance with rattle snakes, and drink poison. I have seen a special on TV about every 5 or 6 years.

Oh yes, I lived in Northern Virginia, and just over the line in West Virginia there was a church that "took up" copper heads and prayed and danced. Many were bitten and had crippled hands, and a couple died while I lived there. That's just plain stupid. They were not protected at all.

 

[sirayuk]

The signs spoken of are raising the dead, drinking poison but not being harmed, and being bitten by poisonous snakes without being harmed. Do those signs follow you? Be honest.

Oh yes they do

Sent from my S952 using Tapatalk

 

[Right Divider]

Oh yes they do

You are a poser.

 

[nikolai_42]

Oh yes, I lived in Northern Virginia, and just over the line in West Virginia there was a church that "took up" copper heads and prayed and danced. Many were bitten and had crippled hands, and a couple died while I lived there. That's just plain stupid. They were not protected at all.

One wonders if they read all of scripture - including Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. If they really believe they have those signs following them, then what's the point of making a show of it? At best it's pride. At worst it's tempting God.

 

[nikolai_42]

You are a poser.

Where's the dividing line between a "sign gift" and a miraculous provision for someone who believes?

 

[Squeaky]

Yet, it's still the word, itself, that gives the "increase".

I said
I think your picking at terminology. The Word is the power but we are the ones who speak the Word. Someone has to speak it before it works.

 

[Right Divider]

Where's the dividing line between a "sign gift" and a miraculous provision for someone who believes?

That you think that there is a pattern for you to follow from the book of James shows that you do not understand the revelation of the mystery.

Until you do, you will continue to be confused about issues like this.

 

[nikolai_42]

That you think that there is a pattern for you to follow from the book of James shows that you do not understand the revelation of the mystery.

Until you do, you will continue to be confused about issues like this.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that there are two reference to healing here. What do you say is the distinction between the "gift of healing" as referenced in I Cor 12:28 (the KJV actually says "gifts of healings" - plural) and the prayer of faith that James talked about?

 

[Right Divider]

Be that as it may, the fact remains that there are two reference to healing here. What do you say is the distinction between the "gift of healing" as referenced in I Cor 12:28 (the KJV actually says "gifts of healings" - plural) and the prayer of faith that James talked about?

James was one of the circumcision apostles that were originally healing EVERYONE.

Acts 5:12-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:12) ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (5:13) And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. (5:14) And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) (5:15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid [them] on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. (5:16) There came also a multitude [out] of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.​

So to attempt to hitch your wagon to James is a mistake. James makes it crystal clear that his audience is the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1) and there is a reason for that and it cannot be ignored without misunderstanding the doctrine contained therein.

Even the first book to the Corinthians was very early. There were changes that God was making and that is why it was already pointed out to you that late in Paul's ministry he was no longer healing people but was leaving friends sick (and recommending wine for stomach problems).

God does NOT always do the same things all of the time and you need to follow His progressive revelation if you really want to understand what was going on at any point in time (including today).

 

[nikolai_42]

James was one of the circumcision apostles that were originally healing EVERYONE.

Acts 5:12-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:12) ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (5:13) And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. (5:14) And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) (5:15) Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid [them] on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. (5:16) There came also a multitude [out] of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.​

So to attempt to hitch your wagon to James is a mistake. James makes it crystal clear that his audience is the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1) and there is a reason for that and it cannot be ignored without misunderstanding the doctrine contained therein.

Even the first book to the Corinthians was very early. There were changes that God was making and that is why it was already pointed out to you that late in Paul's ministry he was no longer healing people but was leaving friends sick (and recommending wine for stomach problems).

God does NOT always do the same things all of the time and you need to follow His progressive revelation if you really want to understand what was going on at any point in time (including today).

So James who once healed everyone he came in contact with (who needed healing) is now advising the elders of the church to pray for all sorts of ailments - but that is not to be followed because of who James is? Paul's pattern - according to what you are saying - is much the same. Healed everyone (for a time) and then advised alternate approaches.

So is the "gift of healing" (or "gifts of healing") 100% effective immediately but after the time for this passed there was no guarantee of healing?

 

[Right Divider]

So James who once healed everyone he came in contact with (who needed healing) is now advising the elders of the church to pray for all sorts of ailments - but that is not to be followed because of who James is?

The "church" that James was in was Israel... James 1:1

The elders were the 12 apostles for the 12 tribes of Israel.

Paul's pattern - according to what you are saying - is much the same. Healed everyone (for a time) and then advised alternate approaches.

Indeed, in some respect Paul had healing that faded later in his ministry to the gentiles. Do you understand the revelation of the mystery that Paul preached? It was unknown to the twelve until Paul explained it to them.

So is the "gift of healing" (or "gifts of healing") 100% effective immediately but after the time for this passed there was no guarantee of healing?

There is no guaranteed healing in the body of Christ today. Just as God told Paul that His grace was sufficient, so it is with us today.

 

[glorydaz]

One wonders if they read all of scripture - including Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. If they really believe they have those signs following them, then what's the point of making a show of it? At best it's pride. At worst it's tempting God.

Exactly, which is why the sign gifts were only for a very limited time. Man is ever in danger of being hit with a bad case of PRIDE. Man is not meant to have the power to do miraculous things. He would begin to think he was like God. All we do should be through our Lord and Saviour....by His power and might.

 

[glorydaz]

I said
I think your picking at terminology. The Word is the power but we are the ones who speak the Word. Someone has to speak it before it works.

You might call it that, but I believe it's a critical distinction. As I've said, man is ever in danger of becoming prideful. You've seen it right here on TOL.

1 Corinthians 3:5-7
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.​

In fact, the Bible makes it clear that the GOSPEL (itself) is the power of God unto salvation. There is power in the word, whether spoken or read. A deaf man can hear the Gospel...because "hearing" is of the heart not the ears, just as believing is of the heart not the intellect.