Evidence for Creation & Against Evolution.

avatar382

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noguru said:
Bob didn't start this thread to discuss the difference between abiogenesis and evolution. He wanted to discuss the evidence he claims supports his model of origins. I don't want you deleted. I have no problem with what you are discussing.

It's pretty obvious that Bob doesn't want to bring up abiogenesis vs. evolution in this thread - i've debated the matter with him before.

Unfortunately, the inability of Bob to accept or agree with the standard scientific definition of evolution dooms any debate to mere talking past each other, and failure. How is debate possible if the two sides cannot agree on what they are debating in the first place?
 

Johnny

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Johnny said:
Can we do a one on one bob (not exactly how these things work around here)? You can pick your favorite few arguments and we'll go at it, just you and I. I have a week off school not next week, but the week after--which would be a great time.
I'm just going to restate this again so it doesn't get lost. I really want to do this.
 

bob b

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It seems almost purposely misleading that only Bob's post was deleted or changed

I edited it myself because I realized what I said originally was done in anger and thus was inappropriate.
 

bob b

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It seems almost purposely misleading that only Bob's post was deleted or changed

I edited it myself within a few minutes because I realized what I said originally was done in anger and thus was inappropriate. Unfortunately, within that short interval noguru made a posting which quoted what I had originally said.

It is easy to be deflected from one's primary objective, which on this thread is to present evidence which supports creation and is against evolution (microbes to man). I should follow my own advice and continue to stick to my objective. ;)
 

CapnFungi

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Real Sorceror said:
:rolleyes: The banana? You know, plants will often evolve to suite certian animals in order to spread seeds or pollen. Guess which animals the banana might have evovled for? Monkeys and apes! Who, by sheer coincidence (sarcasm) have hands very similiar to our hands. I'd also like to point out that the domesticated banana we all know and love was engineered by humans to be larger and have fewer seeds than its wild cousin, making it perfect for human consumption.

Can I say "bump"?

Apes and monkeys don't peal the banana on most occasions. They just eat the whole thing.
 

bob b

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Back to the evidence. ;)

6. Mutations
Mutations are the only known means by which new genetic material becomes available for evolution.a Rarely, if ever, is a mutation beneficial to an organism in its natural environment. Almost all observable mutations are harmful; some are meaningless; many are lethal.b No known mutation has ever produced a form of life having greater complexity and viability than its ancestors.c

References:

a. “Ultimately, all variation is, of course, due to mutation.” Ernst Mayr, “Evolutionary Challenges to the Mathematical Interpretation of Evolution,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, proceedings of a symposium held at the Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology, 25–26 April, 1966 (Philadelphia: The Wistar Institute Press, 1967), p. 50.

 “Although mutation is the ultimate source of all genetic variation, it is a relatively rare event, ...” Ayala, p. 63.

b. “The process of mutation is the only known source of the raw materials of genetic variability, and hence of evolution. ... the mutants which arise are, with rare exceptions, deleterious to their carriers, at least in the environments which the species normally encounters.” Theodosius Dobzhansky, “On Methods of Evolutionary Biology and Anthropology,” American Scientist, December 1957, p. 385.

 “In molecular biology, various kinds of mutations introduce the equivalent of noise pollution of the original instructive message. Communication theory goes to extraordinary lengths to prevent noise pollution of signals of all kinds. Given this longstanding struggle against noise contamination of meaningful algorithmic messages, it seems curious that the central paradigm of biology today attributes genomic messages themselves solely to noise.” David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors, “Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information,” Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, p. 10. (Also available at www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29.)

 “Accordingly, mutations are more than just sudden changes in heredity; they also affect viability, and, to the best of our knowledge, invariably affect it adversely.” C. P. Martin, “A Non-Geneticist Looks at Evolution,” American Scientist, January 1953, p. 102.

“Mutation does produce hereditary changes, but the mass of evidence shows that all, or almost all, known mutations are unmistakably pathological and the few remaining ones are highly suspect.” Ibid., p. 103.

“[Although mutations have produced some desirable breeds of animals and plants,] all mutations seem to be in the nature of injuries that, to some extent, impair the fertility and viability of the affected organisms. I doubt if among the many thousands of known mutant types one can be found which is superior to the wild type in its normal environment, only very few can be named which are superior to the wild type in a strange environment.” Ibid., p. 100.

 “If we say that it is only by chance that they [mutations] are useful, we are still speaking too leniently. In general, they are useless, detrimental, or lethal.” W. R. Thompson, “Introduction to The Origin of Species,” Everyman Library No. 811 (New York: E. P. Dutton & Sons, 1956; reprint, Sussex, England: J. M. Dent and Sons, Ltd., 1967), p. 10.

 Visible mutations are easily detectable genetic changes such as albinism, dwarfism, and hemophilia. Winchester quantifies the relative frequency of several types of mutations.

Lethal mutations outnumber visibles by about 20 to 1. Mutations that have small harmful effects, the detrimental mutations, are even more frequent than the lethal ones. Winchester, p. 356.

 John W. Klotz, Genes, Genesis, and Evolution, 2nd edition, revised (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1972), pp. 262–265.

 “... I took a little trouble to find whether a single amino acid change in a hemoglobin mutation is known that doesn’t affect seriously the function of that hemoglobin. One is hard put to find such an instance.” George Wald, Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, pp. 18–19.

However, evolutionists have taught for years that hemoglobin alpha changed through mutations into hemoglobin beta. This would require, at a minimum, 120 point mutations. In other words, the improbability Wald refers to above must be raised to the 120th power to produce just this one protein!

 “Even if we didn’t have a great deal of data on this point, we could still be quite sure on theoretical grounds that mutants would usually be detrimental. For a mutation is a random change of a highly organized, reasonably smoothly functioning living body. A random change in the highly integrated system of chemical processes which constitute life is almost certain to impair it—just as a random interchange of connections in a television set is not likely to improve the picture.” James F. Crow (Professor of Genetics, University of Wisconsin), “Genetic Effects of Radiation,” Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Vol. 14, January 1958, pp. 19–20.

 “The one systematic effect of mutation seems to be a tendency towards degeneration ...” [emphasis in original] Sewall Wright, “The Statistical Consequences of Mendelian Heredity in Relation to Speciation,” The New Systematics, editor Julian Huxley (London: Oxford University Press, 1949), p. 174.

Wright then concludes that other factors must also have been involved, because he believes evolution happened.

 In discussing the many mutations needed to produce a new organ, Koestler says:

Each mutation occurring alone would be wiped out before it could be combined with the others. They are all interdependent. The doctrine that their coming together was due to a series of blind coincidences is an affront not only to common sense but to the basic principles of scientific explanation. Arthur Koestler, The Ghost in the Machine (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1968), p. 129.

c. “There is no single instance where it can be maintained that any of the mutants studied has a higher vitality than the mother species.” N. Heribert Nilsson, Synthetische Artbildung (Lund, Sweden: Verlag CWK Gleerup, 1953), p. 1157.

“It is, therefore, absolutely impossible to build a current evolution on mutations or on recombinations.” [emphasis in original] Ibid., p. 1186.

 “No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution.” Pierre-Paul Grassé, Evolution of Living Organisms (New York: Academic Press, 1977), p. 88.

 “I have seen no evidence whatsoever that these [evolutionary] changes can occur through the accumulation of gradual mutations.” Lynn Margulis, as quoted by Charles Mann, “Lynn Margulis: Science’s Unruly Earth Mother,” Science, Vol. 252, 19 April 1991, p. 379.

 “It is true that nobody thus far has produced a new species or genus, etc., by macromutation. It is equally true that nobody has produced even a species by the selection of micromutations.” Richard B. Goldschmidt, “Evolution, As Viewed by One Geneticist,” American Scientist, Vol. 40, January 1952, p. 94.

 “If life really depends on each gene being as unique as it appears to be, then it is too unique to come into being by chance mutations.” Frank B. Salisbury, “Natural Selection and the Complexity of the Gene,” Nature, Vol. 224, 25 October 1969, p. 342.

 “Do we, therefore, ever see mutations going about the business of producing new structures for selection to work on? No nascent organ has ever been observed emerging, though their origin in pre-functional form is basic to evolutionary theory. Some should be visible today, occurring in organisms at various stages up to integration of a functional new system, but we don’t see them: there is no sign at all of this kind of radical novelty. Neither observation nor controlled experiment has shown natural selection manipulating mutations so as to produce a new gene, hormone, enzyme system or organ.” Michael Pitman, Adam and Evolution (London: Rider, 1984), pp. 67–68.
 

Johnny

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Walt Brown through bob b said:
No known mutation has ever produced a form of life having greater complexity and viability than its ancestors.
Reference date: 53 years ago. Believe me when I say that we're all quite impressed with this creationist's integrity, bob. Please, keep impressing us.

Bob, will you not debate me on one of your "favorite" arguments? You pick.
 

Yorzhik

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avatar382 said:
Are you referring to some original common ancestor?
Obviously, at this point, that is what we are talking about.

That is, a single organism from which ALL current life is descended?
Yes, that is your claim that I'm asking you to back up.

"Any two organisms share a common ancestor" does not mean that some original organism need existed....
At this point I would in some cases have to call you a name like "idiot" or "stupid" because "Any two organisms share a common ancestor" MEANS SPECIFICALLY that some original organism need existed! But I'll refrain from calling you those names at this point because I think you just didn't explain yourself completely. So, please, explain yourself more completely.
 

noguru

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bob b said:
I edited it myself within a few minutes because I realized what I said originally was done in anger and thus was inappropriate. Unfortunately, within that short interval noguru made a posting which quoted what I had originally said.

It is easy to be deflected from one's primary objective, which on this thread is to present evidence which supports creation and is against evolution (microbes to man). I should follow my own advice and continue to stick to my objective. ;)

Yes, I agree. You should stick to your objective. However, nothing you have posted can logically be viewed as evidence for creation. Since you have made it off limits to place your YEC model under the scrutiny that would be necessary to establish this so called evidence as support for your model. All you have done so far is taken lame pot shots at the naturalistic old earth model. You have not offered a logical analyses of how these referrences support your model better. Perhaps if you spent a little more of your effort in the analyses of your model and a little less of your effort mining irrelevant quotes, your argument might be more compelling. Currently your style of debate reminds me of chicken little.

P.S. If you believe your quotes are relevant, you need to map out the logical explanation of why you believe this. Simply posting empty rhetoric about peoples poor understanding of evolution is not sufficient. If you belief the people who made these quotes have a good understanding of the issue, you need to establish this with other evidence.

Also, you should note that I have not once used a quote that addresses the accuracy of the YEC model. Everything I referrenced was positive evidence for the old earth naturalistic model but not neccessarily evidence against a YEC model. So far you have not demonstrated how these reffernces you posted are positive support for your YEC model. They are only vague criticisms of the old earth naturalistic model.

And you got angry at me. Oh, the irony. Keep up the good work. :thumb:
 
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noguru

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Yorzhik said:
Obviously, at this point, that is what we are talking about.


Yes, that is your claim that I'm asking you to back up.


At this point I would in some cases have to call you a name like "idiot" or "stupid" because "Any two organisms share a common ancestor" MEANS SPECIFICALLY that some original organism need existed! But I'll refrain from calling you those names at this point because I think you just didn't explain yourself completely. So, please, explain yourself more completely.

Yorzhik, you are being obtuse again.
 

Yorzhik

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noguru said:
Yorzhik, you are being obtuse again.
Okay, let's take this step by step. Is the statement "Any two organisms share a common ancestor" as sure as, let's say, gravity?
 

noguru

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Yorzhik said:
Okay, let's take this step by step. Is the statement "Any two organisms share a common ancestor" as sure as, let's say, gravity?

What does the level of certainty associated with gravity as compared to common ancestry have to do with the distinction between life arising naturally and natural evolution?
 

Yorzhik

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noguru said:
What does the level of certainty associated with gravity as compared to common ancestry have to do with the distinction between life arising naturally and natural evolution?
First, I'm not talking about life arising naturally. I'm talking about the point after life arose.

Second, the level of certainty of gravity is simply a point of comparison that I thought you would understand. Had you not been purposely obtuse, you would have understood I was talking about a "level of certainty" and not about "gravity".

So the question remains; how certain are you that any two organisms share a common ancestor?
 

bob b

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8. Complex Molecules and Organs
Many molecules necessary for life, such as DNA, RNA, and proteins, are so incredibly complex that claims they evolved are questionable. Furthermore, those claims lack experimental support.a

There is no reason to believe that mutations or any natural process could ever produce any new organs—especially those as complex as the eye,b the ear, or the brain.c For example, an adult human brain contains over 10exp14 (a hundred thousand billion) electrical connections,d more than all the electrical connections in all the electrical appliances in the world. The human heart, a ten-ounce pump that will operate without maintenance or lubrication for about 75 years, is another engineering marvel.e

References:

a. “There has never been a meeting, or a book, or a paper on details of the evolution of complex biochemical systems.” Michael J. Behe, Darwin’s Black Box (New York: The Free Press, 1996), p. 179.

 “Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority. There is no publication in the scientific literature—in prestigious journals, speciality journals, or book—that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred. There are assertions that such evolution occurred, but absolutely none are supported by pertinent experiments or calculations. Since no one knows molecular evolution by direct experience, and since there is no authority on which to base claims of knowledge, it can truly be said that—like the contention that the Eagles will win the Super Bowl this year—the assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster.” Behe, p. 186.

b. “While today’s digital hardware is extremely impressive, it is clear that the human retina’s real-time performance goes unchallenged. Actually, to simulate 10 milliseconds (ms) of the complete processing of even a single nerve cell from the retina would require the solution of about 500 simultaneous nonlinear differential equations 100 times and would take at least several minutes of processing time on a Cray supercomputer. Keeping in mind that there are 10 million or more such cells interacting with each other in complex ways, it would take a minimum of 100 years of [1985] Cray time to simulate what takes place in your eye many times every second.” John K. Stevens, “Reverse Engineering the Brain,” Byte, April 1985, p. 287.

 “Was the eye contrived without skill in opticks [optics], and the ear without knowledge of sounds?” Isaac Newton, Opticks (England: 1704; reprint, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1931), pp. 369–370.

 “Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system of the human eye?” Wernher von Braun (probably the rocket scientist most responsible for the United States’ success in placing men on the Moon) from a letter written by Dr. Wernher von Braun and read to the California State Board of Education by Dr. John Ford on 14 September 1972.

 “What random process could possibly explain the simultaneous evolution of the eye’s optical system, the nervous conductors of the optical signals from the eye to the brain, and the optical nerve center in the brain itself where the incoming light impulses are converted to an image the conscious mind can comprehend?” Wernher von Braun, foreword to From Goo to You by Way of the Zoo by Harold Hill (Plainfield, New Jersey: Logos International, 1976), p. xi.

 “The probability of dust carried by the wind reproducing Dürer’s ‘Melancholia’ is less infinitesimal than the probability of copy errors in the DNA molecule leading to the formation of the eye; besides, these errors had no relationship whatsoever with the function that the eye would have to perform or was starting to perform. There is no law against daydreaming, but science must not indulge in it.” [emphasis in original] Pierre-Paul Grassé, Evolution of Living Organisms (New York: Academic Press, 1977), p. 104.

 “It must be admitted, however, that it is a considerable strain on one’s credulity to assume that finely balanced systems such as certain sense organs (the eye of vertebrates, or the bird’s feather) could be improved by random mutations. This is even more true for some of the ecological chain relationships (the famous yucca moth case, and so forth). However, the objectors to random mutations have so far been unable to advance any alternative explanation that was supported by substantial evidence.” Ernst Mayr, Systematics and the Origin of Species (New York: Dover Publications, 1942), p. 296.

 Although Robert Jastrow generally accepts Darwinian evolution, he acknowledges that:

It is hard to accept the evolution of the human eye as a product of chance; it is even harder to accept the evolution of human intelligence as the product of random disruptions in the brain cells of our ancestors. Robert Jastrow, “Evolution: Selection for Perfection,” Science Digest, December 1981, p. 87.

 Many leading scientists have commented on the staggering complexity of the human eye. What some do not appreciate is how many diverse types of eyes there are, each of which adds to the problem for evolution.

 One of the strangest is a multiple-lensed, compound eye found in fossilized worms! [See Donald G. Mikulic et al., “A Silurian Soft-Bodied Biota,” Science, Vol. 228, 10 May 1985, pp. 715–717.]

 Another type of eye belonged to some trilobites, a thumb-size, extinct, sea-bottom creature. Evolutionists claim they were very early forms of life. Trilobite eyes had compound lenses, sophisticated designs for eliminating image distortion (spherical aberration). Only the best cameras and telescopes contain compound lenses. Some trilobite eyes contained 280 lenses, allowing vision in all directions, day and night. [See Richard Fortey and Brian Chatterton, “A Devonian Trilobite with an Eyeshade,” Science, Vol. 301, 19 September 2003, p. 1689.] Trilobite eyes “represent an all-time feat of function optimization.” [Riccardo Levi-Setti, Trilobites, 2nd edition (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1993), pp. 29–74.] Shawver described trilobite eyes as having “the most sophisticated eye lenses ever produced by nature.” [Lisa J. Shawver, “Trilobite Eyes: An Impressive Feat of Early Evolution,” Science News, Vol. 105, 2 February 1974, p. 72.] Gould admitted that “The eyes of early trilobites, for example, have never been exceeded for complexity or acuity by later arthropods. ... I regard the failure to find a clear ‘vector of progress’ in life’s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.” [Stephen Jay Gould, “The Ediacaran Experiment,” Natural History, February 1984, pp. 22–23.]

 The brittlestar, an animal similar to a 5-arm starfish, has, as part of its skeleton, thousands of eyes, each smaller than the diameter of a human hair. Each eye consists of a calcium carbonate crystal that acts as a compound lens and precisely focuses light on a bundle of nerves. If an arm is lost, a new arm regenerates along with its array of eyes mounted on the upper-back side of the arm. While evolutionists had considered these animals primitive, Sambles admits that “Once again we find that nature foreshadowed our technical developments.” Roy Sambles, “Armed for Light Sensing,” Nature, Vol. 412, 23 August 2001, p. 783. The capabilities of these light-focusing lenses exceed today’s technology.

c. “To my mind the human brain is the most marvelous and mysterious object in the whole universe and no geologic period seems too long to allow for its natural evolution.” Henry Fairfield Osborn, an influential evolutionist speaking to the American Association for the Advancement of Science in December 1929, as told by Roger Lewin, Bones of Contention (New York: Simon and Schuster, Inc., 1987), p. 57. [Even greater capabilities of the brain have been discovered since 1929. Undoubtedly, more remain. W.B.]

 “And in Man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe.” Isaac Asimov, “In the Game of Energy and Thermodynamics You Can’t Even Break Even,” Smithsonian, August 1970, p. 10.

Asimov forgot that the brain, and presumably most of its details, is coded by only a fraction of an individual’s DNA. Therefore, it would be more accurate to say that DNA is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter known in the universe.

 The human brain is frequently likened to a supercomputer. In most respects the brain greatly exceeds any computer’s capabilities. Speed is one area where the computer beats the brain—at least in some ways. For example, few of us can quickly multiply 0.0239 times 854.95. This task is called a floating point operation, because the decimal point “floats” until we (or a computer) decide where to place it. The number of floating point operations per second (FLOPS) is a measure of a computer’s speed. As of this writing, an IBM computer can achieve 70 trillion FLOPS (70 teraFLOPS). Within the next few years, petaFLOPS machines (peta: 10exp15) will be commonplace. One challenge is to prevent these superfast computers from melting. Too much electrically generated heat is dissipated in too small a volume.

Overall, the human brain seems to operate at petaFLOPS speeds—without overheating. One knowledgeable observer on these ultrafast computers commented:

The human brain itself serves, in some sense, as a proof of concept [that cool petaFLOPS machines are possible]. Its dense network of neurons apparently operates at a petaFLOPS or higher level. Yet the whole device fits in a 1 liter box and uses only about 10 watts of power. That’s a hard act to follow. Ivars Peterson, “PetaCrunchers: Setting a Course toward Ultrafast Supercomputing,” Science News, Vol. 147, 15 April 1995, p. 235.

How, then, could the brain have evolved?

d. “The human brain consists of about ten thousand million nerve cells. Each nerve cell puts out somewhere in the region of between ten thousand and one hundred thousand connecting fibres by which it makes contact with other nerve cells in the brain. Altogether the total number of connections in the human brain approaches 10exp15 or a thousand million million. ... a much greater number of specific connections than in the entire communications network on Earth.” Denton, pp. 330–331.

 “... the human brain probably contains more than 10exp14 synapses ...” Deborah M. Barnes, “Brain Architecture: Beyond Genes,” Science, Vol. 233, 11 July 1986, p. 155.

e. Marlyn E. Clark, Our Amazing Circulatory System, Technical Monograph No. 5 (San Diego: Creation-Life Publishers, 1976).
 

Wessex Man

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None of the proof any creationist provides actually brings us any closer to genesis,maybe to a form of intelligent design,but it might as well be prometheous for all the good it does christianity.
 

bob b

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NuGnostic said:
None of the proof any creationist provides actually brings us any closer to genesis,maybe to a form of intelligent design,but it might as well be prometheous for all the good it does christianity.

The evidence is consistent with creation and falsifies evolution from a hypothetical single-celled creature. That is good enough for me, but apparently not for everyone.
 

Shalom

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bob b - I think you should take Johnny up on the one on one offer. Maybe his brain would do some evolving. :chuckle:
 

Quasar1011

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Yorzhik said:
Okay, let's take this step by step. Is the statement "Any two organisms share a common ancestor" as sure as, let's say, gravity?

I don't even share common ancestors with some other humans, e.g., the ones who are descended from apes. I am descended from Adam. :rolleyes:
 

noguru

Well-known member
Yorzhik said:
First, I'm not talking about life arising naturally. I'm talking about the point after life arose.

But you seem to be stuck on the point that without life arising naturally we cannot have evolution. This is a logical fallacy. Even if the first form of life did not arise naturally, natural evolution could still be true.

Yorzhik said:
Second, the level of certainty of gravity is simply a point of comparison that I thought you would understand. Had you not been purposely obtuse, you would have understood I was talking about a "level of certainty" and not about "gravity".

I do understand, but I think the comparison is irrelevant. I also understand that you were asking about levels of certainty. And again I feel the question is irrelevant to the distinction between the origin of species and the origin of life. If you believe I am wrong, you can demonstrate why you believe this. Instead of being so cryptic. So actually I am not being obtuse. I am being very straightforward and clear about what I think.

Yorzhik said:
So the question remains; how certain are you that any two organisms share a common ancestor?

Do you want a percentage?

In simple terms, I believe that common ancestry is the best explanation we have so far. Do you have a better explanation for the biodiversity we see?
 
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