Evidence for Creation & Against Evolution.

One Eyed Jack

New member
bob b said:
The purpose I had in mind in starting this thread was to present the mountains of evidence which exist to support Creation and at the same time falsify evolution.

There are of course multiple ways to deflect such a purpose as we have seen attempted here. The only method not tried so far is to try to shift the topic to the accuracy or interpretation of scripture.

;)

Sorry about that, bob b. Thanks for your replies, noguru.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Nineveh said:
I think you took a leap.

Terrific. So do you approve of the course of research in these areas? Because It seemed as though you didn't.


Nineveh said:
I think science is a wonderful tool to use in the endeavor of figuring out the world and universe around us.

That's comforting. :crackup:

Nineveh said:
But, if you think science has gone very far on the abiogenesis front, you should look again.

What made you think that? I have been saying that the origins of life is still a great mystery in science, throughout this thread. But you seem to think that this undermines the entire endeavor of the material sciences.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
The purpose I had in mind in starting this thread was to present the mountains of evidence which exist to support Creation and at the same time falsify evolution.

Well your efforts have failed.

bob b said:
There are of course multiple ways to deflect such a purpose as we have seen attempted here. The only method not tried so far is to try to shift the topic to the accuracy or interpretation of scripture.

;)

You should know about deflection. I have seen a good rebuttal for everyone of these arguments already. But you just defelect that by saying, "Noone has made a good challenge."

Bob, if you really want to make a difference, you should compile your arguments into a paper for peer review. Then we can see what the professionals have to say about your arguments. But somehow I do not think that is ever going to come to fuition.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
noguru said:
Well your efforts have failed.

I have just begun to fight. ;)

You should know about deflection. I have seen a good rebuttal for everyone of these arguments already.

Not on this thread at least.

But you just defelect that by saying, "Noone has made a good challenge."

There has been zero challenge to any of the 6 points so far presented.

Bob, if you really want to make a difference, you should compile your arguments into a paper for peer review. Then we can see what the professionals have to say about your arguments. But somehow I do not think that is ever going to come to fuition.

Walt Brown has already compiled these arguments and hundreds more in his book. Try reading it. You might learn something.

It is a bargain at around $25 or so, available at kgov.com.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
I have just begun to fight. ;)

Okay John Paul Jones.


bob b said:
Not on this thread at least.

That's because most of us realize that you are impervious to logic. I for one have gotten better at chosing my battles. All of these evidences that you claim support your model have been demonstrated, in the past, to do no such thing. When I see a new argument by you I will addres it.

bob b said:
There has been zero challenge to any of the 6 points so far presented.

Yes you have become like the cowardly shoolyard bully here. Instead of challenging him, and watching him weasel out. Most of the intelligent and productive students just chose to ignore him.

bob b said:
Walt Brown has already compiled these arguments and hundreds more in his book. Try reading it. You might learn something.

It is a bargain at around $25 or so, available at kgov.com.

Tell you what. Call him and have him send it in for peer review. Then I can read his book and all of the peer reviews as well.

It's great to have a captive audience. Unfortunately or fortunately in science, such a situation is not the rule.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Back to evidences which falsify evolution and are consistent with creation.

4. Bounded Variations
While Mendel’s laws give a theoretical explanation for why variations are limited, broad experimental verification also exists.a For example, if evolution happened, organisms (such as bacteria) that quickly produce the most offspring should have the most variations and mutations. Natural selection would then select the more favorable changes, allowing organisms with those traits to survive, reproduce, and pass on their beneficial genes. Therefore, organisms that have allegedly evolved the most should have short reproduction cycles and many offspring. We see the opposite. In general, more complex organisms, such as humans, have fewer offspring and longer reproduction cycles.b Again, variations within existing organisms appear to be bounded.

Organisms that occupy the most diverse environments in the greatest numbers for the longest times should also, according to macroevolution, have the greatest potential for evolving new features and species. Microbes falsify this prediction as well. Their numbers per species are astronomical, and they are dispersed throughout practically all the world’s environments. Nevertheless, the number of microbial species are relatively few.c New features apparently don’t evolve.

References:

a. “... the discovery of the Danish scientist W. L. Johannsen that the more or less constant somatic variations upon which Darwin and Wallace had placed their emphasis in species change cannot be selectively pushed beyond a certain point, that such variability does not contain the secret of ‘indefinite departure.’ ” Loren Eiseley, Darwin’s Century (Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1958), p. 227.

b. “The awesome morphological complexity of organisms such as vertebrates that have far fewer individuals on which selection can act therefore remains somewhat puzzling (for me at least), despite the geological time scales available ...” Peter R. Sheldon, “Complexity Still Running,” Nature, Vol. 350, 14 March 1991, p. 104.

c. Bland J. Finlay, “Global Dispersal of Free-Living Microbial Eukaryote Species,” Science, Vol. 296, 10 May 2002, pp. 1061–1063.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
I didn't think you would have anything substantial to say. You never do.



But you don't ignore my posts, you just make false claims that everything in them has been previously refuted.



Cheapskate. His book is online for anybody to read.

I have a better idea, you call him and accept his challenge to debate.

Either that or put up or shut up.

OK. Bob. I guess you showed me.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
5. Natural Selection
An offspring of a plant or animal has characteristics that vary, often in subtle ways, from its “parents.” Because of the environment, genetics, and chance circumstances, some of these offspring will reproduce more than others. So a species with certain characteristics will tend, on average, to have more “children.” In this sense, nature “selects” genetic characteristics suited to an environment—and, more importantly, eliminates unsuitable genetic variations. Therefore, an organism’s gene pool is constantly decreasing. This is called natural selection.a

Notice, natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics. As the word “selection” implies, variations are reduced, not increased.b

For example, many mistakenly believe that insect or bacterial resistances evolved in response to pesticides and antibiotics. Instead,

• a previously lost capability was re-established, making it appear something evolved,c

• a mutation reduced the binding ability, regulatory function, or transport capacity of certain proteins,

• a damaging bacterial mutation or variation reduced the antibiotic’s effectiveness even more,d or

• a few resistant insects and bacteria were already present when the pesticides and antibiotics were first applied. When the vulnerable insects and bacteria were killed, resistant varieties had less competition and, therefore, proliferated.e

While natural selection occurred, nothing evolved and, in fact, some biological diversity was lost.

The variations Darwin observed among finches on different Galapagos islands is another example of natural selection producing micro- (not macro-) evolution. While natural selection sometimes explains the survival of the fittest, it does not explain the origin of the fittest.f Today, some people think that because natural selection occurs, evolution must be correct. Actually, natural selection prevents major evolutionary changes.g

References:

a. In 1835 and again in 1837, Edward Blyth, a creationist, published an explanation of natural selection. Later, Charles Darwin adopted it as the foundation for his theory, evolution by natural selection. Darwin failed to credit Blyth for his important insight. [See evolutionist Loren C. Eiseley, Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X (New York: E. P. Dutton, 1979), pp. 45–80.]

Darwin also largely ignored Alfred Russel Wallace, who had independently proposed the theory that is usually credited solely to Darwin. In 1855, Wallace published the theory of evolution in a brief note in the Annals and Magazine of Natural History, a note that Darwin read. Again, on 9 March 1858, Wallace explained the theory in a letter to Darwin, 20 months before Darwin finally published his more detailed theory of evolution.

Edward Blyth also showed why natural selection would limit an organism’s characteristics to only slight deviations from those of all its ancestors. Twenty-four years later, Darwin tried to refute Blyth’s explanation in a chapter in The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection (24 November 1859).

Darwin felt that, with enough time, gradual changes could accumulate. Charles Lyell’s writings (1830) had persuaded Darwin that the earth was at least hundreds of thousands of years old. James Hutton’s writings (1788) had convinced Lyell that the earth was extremely old. Hutton felt that certain geological formations supported an old earth. Those geological formations are explained, not by time, but by a global flood. [See pages 100–256.]

 “Darwin was confronted by a genuinely unusual problem. The mechanism, natural selection, by which he hoped to prove the reality of evolution, had been written about most intelligently by a nonevolutionist [Edward Blyth]. Geology, the time world which it was necessary to attach to natural selection in order to produce [hopefully] the mechanism of organic change, had been beautifully written upon by a man [Charles Lyell] who had publicly repudiated the evolutionary position.” Eiseley, p. 76.

 Charles Darwin also plagiarized in other instances. [See Jerry Bergman, “Did Darwin Plagiarize His Evolution Theory?” Technical Journal, Vol. 16, No. 3, 2002, pp. 58–63.]

b. “[Natural selection] may have a stabilizing effect, but it does not promote speciation. It is not a creative force as many people have suggested.” Daniel Brooks, as quoted by Roger Lewin, “A Downward Slope to Greater Diversity,” Science, Vol. 217, 24 September 1982, p. 1240.

 “The essence of Darwinism lies in a single phrase: natural selection is the creative force of evolutionary change. No one denies that natural selection will play a negative role in eliminating the unfit. Darwinian theories require that it create the fit as well.” Stephen Jay Gould, “The Return of Hopeful Monsters,” Natural History, Vol. 86, June–July 1977, p. 28.

c. G. Z. Opadia-Kadima, “How the Slot Machine Led Biologists Astray,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 124, 1987, pp. 127–135.

d. Eric Penrose, “Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics—A Case of Un-Natural Selection,” Creation Research Society Quarterly, Vol. 35, September 1998, pp. 76–83.

e. Well-preserved bodies of members of the Franklin expedition, frozen in the Canadian Arctic in 1845, contain bacteria resistant to antibiotics. Because the first antibiotics were developed in the early 1940s, these resistant bacteria could not have evolved in response to antibiotics. Contamination has been eliminated as a possibility. [See Rick McGuire, “Eerie: Human Arctic Fossils Yield Resistant Bacteria,” Medical Tribune, 29 December 1988, p. 1.]

 “The genetic variants required for resistance to the most diverse kinds of pesticides were apparently present in every one of the populations exposed to these man-made compounds.” Francisco J. Ayala, “The Mechanisms of Evolution,” Scientific American, Vol. 239, September 1978, p. 65.

f. “Darwin complained his critics did not understand him, but he did not seem to realize that almost everybody, friends, supporters and critics, agreed on one point, his natural selection cannot account for the origin of the variations, only for their possible survival. And the reasons for rejecting Darwin’s proposal were many, but first of all that many innovations cannot possibly come into existence through accumulation of many small steps, and even if they can, natural selection cannot accomplish it, because incipient and intermediate stages are not advantageous.” Søren Løvtrup, Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth (New York: Croom Helm, 1987), pp. 274–275.

 “It was a shock to the people of the 19th century when they discovered, from observations science had made, that many features of the biological world could be ascribed to the elegant principle of natural selection. It is a shock to us in the twentieth century to discover, from observations science has made, that the fundamental mechanisms of life cannot be ascribed to natural selection, and therefore were designed. But we must deal with our shock as best we can and go on. The theory of undirected evolution is already dead, but the work of science continues.” Michael J. Behe, “Molecular Machines,” Cosmic Pursuit, Spring 1998, p. 35.

g. In 1980, the “Macroevolution Conference” was held in Chicago. Roger Lewin, writing for Science, described it as a “turning point in the history of evolutionary theory.” He went on to say:

The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No. Roger Lewin, “Evolution Theory under Fire,” Science, Vol. 210, 21 November 1980, p. 883.

“In a generous admission Francisco Ayala, a major figure in propounding the Modern Synthesis [neo-Darwinism] in the United States, said ‘We would not have predicted stasis [the stability of species over time] from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that small changes do not accumulate.’ ” Ibid., p. 884.

As stated earlier, micro + time ≠ macro.

 “One could argue at this point that such ‘minor’ changes [microevolution], extrapolated over millions of years, could result in macroevolutionary change. But the observational evidence will not support this argument ... [examples given] Thus, the changes observed in the laboratory are not analogous to the sort of changes needed for macroevolution. Those who argue from microevolution to macroevolution may be guilty, then, of employing a false analogy—especially when one considers that microevolution may be a force of stasis [stability], not transformation. ... For those who must describe the history of life as a purely natural phenomenon, the winnowing action of natural selection is truly a difficult problem to overcome. For scientists who are content to describe accurately those processes and phenomena which occur in nature (in particular, stasis), natural selection acts to prevent major evolutionary change.” Michael Thomas, “Stasis Considered,” Origins Research, Vol. 12, Fall/Winter 1989, p. 11.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
5. Natural Selection
An offspring of a plant or animal has characteristics that vary, often in subtle ways, from its “parents.” Because of the environment, genetics, and chance circumstances, some of these offspring will reproduce more than others. So a species with certain characteristics will tend, on average, to have more “children.” In this sense, nature “selects” genetic characteristics suited to an environment—and, more importantly, eliminates unsuitable genetic variations. Therefore, an organism’s gene pool is constantly decreasing. This is called natural selection.a

Notice, natural selection cannot produce new genes; it only selects among preexisting characteristics. As the word “selection” implies, variations are reduced, not increased.b

For example, many mistakenly believe that insect or bacterial resistances evolved in response to pesticides and antibiotics. Instead,

• a previously lost capability was re-established, making it appear something evolved,c

• a mutation reduced the binding ability, regulatory function, or transport capacity of certain proteins,

• a damaging bacterial mutation or variation reduced the antibiotic’s effectiveness even more,d or

• a few resistant insects and bacteria were already present when the pesticides and antibiotics were first applied. When the vulnerable insects and bacteria were killed, resistant varieties had less competition and, therefore, proliferated.e

While natural selection occurred, nothing evolved and, in fact, some biological diversity was lost.

The variations Darwin observed among finches on different Galapagos islands is another example of natural selection producing micro- (not macro-) evolution. While natural selection sometimes explains the survival of the fittest, it does not explain the origin of the fittest.f Today, some people think that because natural selection occurs, evolution must be correct. Actually, natural selection prevents major evolutionary changes.g

References:

a. In 1835 and again in 1837, Edward Blyth, a creationist, published an explanation of natural selection. Later, Charles Darwin adopted it as the foundation for his theory, evolution by natural selection. Darwin failed to credit Blyth for his important insight. [See evolutionist Loren C. Eiseley, Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X (New York: E. P. Dutton, 1979), pp. 45–80.]

Darwin also largely ignored Alfred Russel Wallace, who had independently proposed the theory that is usually credited solely to Darwin. In 1855, Wallace published the theory of evolution in a brief note in the Annals and Magazine of Natural History, a note that Darwin read. Again, on 9 March 1858, Wallace explained the theory in a letter to Darwin, 20 months before Darwin finally published his more detailed theory of evolution.

Edward Blyth also showed why natural selection would limit an organism’s characteristics to only slight deviations from those of all its ancestors. Twenty-four years later, Darwin tried to refute Blyth’s explanation in a chapter in The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection (24 November 1859).

Darwin felt that, with enough time, gradual changes could accumulate. Charles Lyell’s writings (1830) had persuaded Darwin that the earth was at least hundreds of thousands of years old. James Hutton’s writings (1788) had convinced Lyell that the earth was extremely old. Hutton felt that certain geological formations supported an old earth. Those geological formations are explained, not by time, but by a global flood. [See pages 100–256.]

 “Darwin was confronted by a genuinely unusual problem. The mechanism, natural selection, by which he hoped to prove the reality of evolution, had been written about most intelligently by a nonevolutionist [Edward Blyth]. Geology, the time world which it was necessary to attach to natural selection in order to produce [hopefully] the mechanism of organic change, had been beautifully written upon by a man [Charles Lyell] who had publicly repudiated the evolutionary position.” Eiseley, p. 76.

 Charles Darwin also plagiarized in other instances. [See Jerry Bergman, “Did Darwin Plagiarize His Evolution Theory?” Technical Journal, Vol. 16, No. 3, 2002, pp. 58–63.]

b. “[Natural selection] may have a stabilizing effect, but it does not promote speciation. It is not a creative force as many people have suggested.” Daniel Brooks, as quoted by Roger Lewin, “A Downward Slope to Greater Diversity,” Science, Vol. 217, 24 September 1982, p. 1240.

 “The essence of Darwinism lies in a single phrase: natural selection is the creative force of evolutionary change. No one denies that natural selection will play a negative role in eliminating the unfit. Darwinian theories require that it create the fit as well.” Stephen Jay Gould, “The Return of Hopeful Monsters,” Natural History, Vol. 86, June–July 1977, p. 28.

c. G. Z. Opadia-Kadima, “How the Slot Machine Led Biologists Astray,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 124, 1987, pp. 127–135.

d. Eric Penrose, “Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics—A Case of Un-Natural Selection,” Creation Research Society Quarterly, Vol. 35, September 1998, pp. 76–83.

e. Well-preserved bodies of members of the Franklin expedition, frozen in the Canadian Arctic in 1845, contain bacteria resistant to antibiotics. Because the first antibiotics were developed in the early 1940s, these resistant bacteria could not have evolved in response to antibiotics. Contamination has been eliminated as a possibility. [See Rick McGuire, “Eerie: Human Arctic Fossils Yield Resistant Bacteria,” Medical Tribune, 29 December 1988, p. 1.]

 “The genetic variants required for resistance to the most diverse kinds of pesticides were apparently present in every one of the populations exposed to these man-made compounds.” Francisco J. Ayala, “The Mechanisms of Evolution,” Scientific American, Vol. 239, September 1978, p. 65.

f. “Darwin complained his critics did not understand him, but he did not seem to realize that almost everybody, friends, supporters and critics, agreed on one point, his natural selection cannot account for the origin of the variations, only for their possible survival. And the reasons for rejecting Darwin’s proposal were many, but first of all that many innovations cannot possibly come into existence through accumulation of many small steps, and even if they can, natural selection cannot accomplish it, because incipient and intermediate stages are not advantageous.” Søren Løvtrup, Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth (New York: Croom Helm, 1987), pp. 274–275.

 “It was a shock to the people of the 19th century when they discovered, from observations science had made, that many features of the biological world could be ascribed to the elegant principle of natural selection. It is a shock to us in the twentieth century to discover, from observations science has made, that the fundamental mechanisms of life cannot be ascribed to natural selection, and therefore were designed. But we must deal with our shock as best we can and go on. The theory of undirected evolution is already dead, but the work of science continues.” Michael J. Behe, “Molecular Machines,” Cosmic Pursuit, Spring 1998, p. 35.

g. In 1980, the “Macroevolution Conference” was held in Chicago. Roger Lewin, writing for Science, described it as a “turning point in the history of evolutionary theory.” He went on to say:

The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No. Roger Lewin, “Evolution Theory under Fire,” Science, Vol. 210, 21 November 1980, p. 883.

“In a generous admission Francisco Ayala, a major figure in propounding the Modern Synthesis [neo-Darwinism] in the United States, said ‘We would not have predicted stasis [the stability of species over time] from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that small changes do not accumulate.’ ” Ibid., p. 884.

As stated earlier, micro + time ≠ macro.

 “One could argue at this point that such ‘minor’ changes [microevolution], extrapolated over millions of years, could result in macroevolutionary change. But the observational evidence will not support this argument ... [examples given] Thus, the changes observed in the laboratory are not analogous to the sort of changes needed for macroevolution. Those who argue from microevolution to macroevolution may be guilty, then, of employing a false analogy—especially when one considers that microevolution may be a force of stasis [stability], not transformation. ... For those who must describe the history of life as a purely natural phenomenon, the winnowing action of natural selection is truly a difficult problem to overcome. For scientists who are content to describe accurately those processes and phenomena which occur in nature (in particular, stasis), natural selection acts to prevent major evolutionary change.” Michael Thomas, “Stasis Considered,” Origins Research, Vol. 12, Fall/Winter 1989, p. 11.

The first paragragh is inaccurate. The older a breeding poulation is, the greater the genetic diversity. Because most genetic variation is nuetral in regard to reproductive advantage. Therefore many nuetral genetic variations build up in a breeding population. Sometimes these nuetral genetic variations give a colony taht leaves the original breeding population a reproductive advantage. This happens when the biome the colony population now inhabits allows for this characteristic to produce a reproductive advantage.

But we have been through all of this before. And you will simply evade all of my attempts at bringing your misconceptions under the light of reason.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
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noguru said:
The first paragragh is inaccurate. The older a breeding poulation is, the greater the genetic diversity. Because most genetic variation is nuetral in regard to reproductive advantage. Therefore many nuetral genetic variations build up in a breeding population. Sometimes these nuetral genetic variations give a colony taht leaves the original breeding population a reproductive advantage. This happens when the biome the colony population now inhabits allows for this characteristic to produce a reproductive advantage.

That is what many evolutionists argue should happen (in order to be consistent with their molecules to man idea). Unfortunately the evidence frequently conflicts with this view, as the bacterium example indicates (Darwin didn't consider this of course. How could he?).

Variation comes primarily from sexual recombination, but like asexual reproduction (gene transfer) has definite limits regarding how much variation can occur. Mutations play only a very minor role in population variation, and that role is largely a detrimental one.

Correct science is against evolution, despite the simplistic emotional appeal of the "random mutations plus natural selection" mantra.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
avatar382 said:
You've missed the point.

Johnny is presciely right. The TOE doesn't say anything at all about life originating naturally. The correct statement would be: "Evolution is understood to be the belief that any two forms of life share a common ancestor."

TOE does not claim there is such a thing as some original primitive unicellular organism or any other original primitive anything. Repeat after me: Any two forms of life share a common ancestor. Evolution in a nutshell. No more, no less. Perhaps you feel that the two definitions are equivalent --- they are not. The difference is subtle but fundamental.
And now we see the pulling away from even abiogenesis!

So, can we draw any conclusions from your statement that any two living things have a common ancestor? Any?

EDIT: oops, I meant to say (because the TOE has pulled away from abiogenesis for quite a few years), that we now see the pulling away from even after abiogenesis. Thanks for pointing that out Avatar.
 
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avatar382

New member
Yorzhik said:
And now we see the pulling away from even abiogenesis!

So, can we draw any conclusions from your statement that any two living things have a common ancestor? Any?

That is correct, abiogenesis is wholly outside the scope of the theory of evolution. The only people who claim otherwise are creationists.

And yes, according to the TOE, ANY two organisms share a common ancestor. So, for example, we can draw the conclusion that say, the bacterium e. coli shares a common ancestor with man homo sapiens. Likewise, e. coli shares a common ancestor with panthera leo (Lion), canis lupus (Wolf), and streptococcus bovis, a bacteria that sometimes causes menengitis. All of these species share a common ancestor with each other.
 

Johnny

New member
Can we do a one on one bob (not exactly how these things work around here)? You can pick your favorite few arguments and we'll go at it, just you and I. I have a week off school not next week, but the week after--which would be a great time.
 

noguru

Well-known member
bob b said:
That is what many evolutionists argue should happen (in order to be consistent with their molecules to man idea). Unfortunately the evidence frequently conflicts with this view, as the bacterium example indicates (Darwin didn't consider this of course. How could he?).

Bob there are many factors involved here. There is evidence that natural selection can at times reduces the size of a breeding population. But this does not necessarily reduce the sum total of genetic diversity in the long run. Genetic bottlenecks are a double edged sword. They serve to isolate a colony population from the parent population (either geographicaly or through extinction of the parent breeding population). But in doing this they send the colony population on a new path. A path that can either lead to a new successful species, or extinction of that species.

Again natural selection is one of the variables. However, phenotype plasticity is another factor. This is an opposing force to the tendency of overspecialization to decrease the size of a gene pool.

Phenotype Plasticity

Another factor is environmental opportunities left from breeding populations that do become extinct as a result of overspecialization. IOW, natural selection may lead to a decreasing gene pool (by reducing the members of a species, and/or causing speciation). But not all of these phylogenetic lines becomes extinct. The ones that survive increase in numbers, and their breeding population increases in genetic variation.

Evolutionary importance of overspecialization.

Bob can you please give some evidence that supports the idea that gene pool diversity can only decrease the older a breeding population gets?

Here is some evidence that supports the idea that genetic diversity increases as a breeding poulation increases in age (# of generations).

Greater genetic diversity among Nubians




bob b said:
Variation comes primarily from sexual recombination, but like asexual reproduction (gene transfer) has definite limits regarding how much variation can occur. Mutations play only a very minor role in population variation, and that role is largely a detrimental one.

Yes, I agree that genetic variation comes primarily from sexual reproduction. But there are species of microbes in which individuals replicate their own DNA, as well as species of microbes that employ two individuals in reproduction through a form of recombination. This line you like to draw between sexual and asexual reproduction is not as clear in the biological world as you would like us to believe. However, in regard to multicellular animals sexual reproduction is much more common.

At any rate, this claim of yours is irrelevant to the logic of the mechanisms involved here.

bob b said:
Correct science is against evolution, despite the simplistic emotional appeal of the "random mutations plus natural selection" mantra.

Well as you can see from the links I posted, your proclamation is inaccurate.

However, I would like to entertain your claim here and ask you. How is evolution a simplistic emotional appeal?

It sure seems to be much more complex than you would like us to believe. I cannot find any emotional satisfaction in the science of biology, other than the feeling of reward I get from trying to understand it's concepts. Perhaps you can explain to us from your own experiences the emotional appeal of your overly simplified model of "random mutation plus natural selection." :rolleyes:
 
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noguru

Well-known member
Bob B said:
I didn't think you would have anything substantial to say. You never do.



But you don't ignore my posts, you just make false claims that everything in them has been previously refuted.



Cheapskate. His book is online for anybody to read.

I have a better idea, you call him and accept his challenge to debate.

Either that or put up or shut up.

noguru said:
OK. Bob. I guess you showed me.

Can anyone tell me why this previous post by Bob B. was deleted or changed?

It couldn't possibly be for the reason of saving face could it?

I mean our entire off the subject exchange prior to this post is still here. Why wasn't all of that deleted as well?

Yorzhik and Bigfoot are continuing their off the subject exchange, and that has not been deleted. :confused:

It seems almost purposely misleading that only Bob's post was deleted or changed.
 

bigfoot

New member
noguru said:
Yorzhik and Bigfoot are continuing their off the subject exchange, and that has not been deleted. :confused:
We are?
I am?
Where about?
And if we are, stop trying to get us deleted already! :kiss:
 

noguru

Well-known member
bigfoot said:
We are?
I am?
Where about?
And if we are, stop trying to get us deleted already! :kiss:

Bob didn't start this thread to discuss the difference between abiogenesis and evolution. He wanted to discuss the evidence he claims supports his model of origins. I don't want you deleted. I have no problem with what you are discussing.
 

Yorzhik

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
avatar382 said:
That is correct, abiogenesis is wholly outside the scope of the theory of evolution. The only people who claim otherwise are creationists.

And yes, according to the TOE, ANY two organisms share a common ancestor. So, for example, we can draw the conclusion that say, the bacterium e. coli shares a common ancestor with man homo sapiens. Likewise, e. coli shares a common ancestor with panthera leo (Lion), canis lupus (Wolf), and streptococcus bovis, a bacteria that sometimes causes menengitis. All of these species share a common ancestor with each other.
So, with knowing that all organisms are related, can evo take a guess as to what kind of organism the common ancestor was?
 

bigfoot

New member
noguru said:
Bob didn't start this thread to discuss the difference between abiogenesis and evolution. He wanted to discuss the evidence he claims supports his model of origins. I don't want you deleted. I have no problem with what you are discussing.
S'cool.
I was only fooling.
However, I really can't remember contributing anything to this thread.
 

avatar382

New member
Yorzhik said:
So, with knowing that all organisms are related, can evo take a guess as to what kind of organism the common ancestor was?

Yes, biologists do this all the time, I imagine. For example, scientists have determined that the ancestor that humans and chimps share lived about 5-7 million years ago.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/primate.html

Are you referring to some original common ancestor? That is, a single organism from which ALL current life is descended? "Any two organisms share a common ancestor" does not mean that some original organism need existed....
 
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