Does God know the future?

[justchristian]

I dont understand how you can say something is unknowable the further you go back with God. What it is exactly that is beyond the knowledge of God? Is it our free will choices when they arent based on causality? Do you factor random occurances? Are you simply saying the more unknowns that preceed an event the more unknowable that event becomes?

 

[drbrumley]

:down:

 

[godrulz]

I dont understand how you can say something is unknowable the further you go back with God. What it is exactly that is beyond the knowledge of God? Is it our free will choices when they arent based on causality? Do you factor random occurances? Are you simply saying the more unknowns that preceed an event the more unknowable that event becomes?

Contingencies/free will implies an equal possibility of chosing among many options. Until the choice is made, there is an element of uncertainty. Randomly flipping coins involves probabilities, not certainties. If we rolled the dice millions of times, how can God predict what the outcomes will be from trillions of years ago before the dice are rolled? Unless determinism reigns, there is no way or need to know. Many moral and mundane choices are simply possible vs certain. They are correctly known as such. God knows all that is knowable. It is not an object of knowledge to know unsettled things exhaustively from trillions of years ago. If they are exhaustively foreknown, we have determinism, not any sense of freedom. Simple foreknowledge is no better, since the future is not yet and not there to 'see'.

 

[drbrumley]

Take another scenario....

If you go away on a space rocket and travel at near lightspeed velocities and then return back to earth. You may only believe that you have been away for a few hours due to time dilation but to everybody else that was left on the Earth you've been away for years. They have carried on living their lives with the usual cause and effect. When you get back the year is 2025 and the Cubs are baseball champions.

God is omnipresent so when you were flying in your space rocket He is with you and He is on the Earth at the same moment. He experiences both time frames. God left on the earth knows that the Cubs will win in 2025 because He is seeing it from the spacerocket because He is omnipresent. The Cubs in the year 2005 still have cause and effect, they have not done it yet, they are free to make whatever choices they want to. To them nothing is different.

But the Cubs in the future which is 2025 have done it never the less and God left on the earth where its still 2005 knows this as He is the same deity as God on the rocket.


Thats the scenario.

.

Actually, your scenario is not true. At most it is theory. Second of all, in your scenario, if I return in 2025, it is still the year 2025. Whether or not it feels like a couple hours or not is irrelevant. Time is time no matter what it is called. It could be called nickel or any other word you choose. Fact is all time is is a measurement. Thats it.

 

[justchristian]

Actually, your scenario is not true. At most it is theory. Second of all, in your scenario, if I return in 2025, it is still the year 2025. Whether or not it feels like a couple hours or not is irrelevant. Time is time no matter what it is called. It could be called nickel or any other word you choose. Fact is all time is is a measurement. Thats it.

The point that if time is relative, and god isn't then he would see all time.

 

[drbrumley]

The point that if time is relative, and god isn't then he would see all time.

And this is how God is? In your scenario, the year is 2025. I left in 2005. When I get back, I feel as if I havent been gone more than a couple hours.That means I must not have aged in those 20 years I'm gone. So I look the same, feel the same as when I left. Everyone else is looking and feeling older. This is science fiction. Watching too much Star Trek I say. Anyway, You make the contention that God is on earth as I am gone and He is also with me as I am floating in space those 20 years. The point is it is still 2024 as I make my way back. In space and on earth.There are no two time frames.

 

[justchristian]

But if God is able to observe both time durations (slow and fast) then you would would have to say his perception of time in creation is relative to creation. Which would negate the probability of his duration prior to creation being the same as creation's many durations.

 

[drbrumley]

But if God is able to observe both time durations (slow and fast) then you would would have to say his perception of time in creation is relative to creation. Which would negate the probability of his duration prior to creation being the same as creation's many durations.

I apologize, but that just flew over my head.

 

[justchristian]

Yea mine too. This is fun. Ok lets try step by step. If time dilation is a fact, do we say God experiences duration different in either case (experiences a minute in the ship and an hour on earth)? He would experience 1 minute in the ship (60 second hand ticks) and 60 minutes on earth (3600 seconds on earth)?

 

[godrulz]

The point that if time is relative, and god isn't then he would see all time.

The future is not there yet to see. It is not a physical thing that can be seen before it comes into existence. Does tomorrow exist yet? There are a vast number of contingent possibilities in how it will unfold. Every action can affect possible outcomes. If I drive a car, I may or may not get killed. I might get sick and I may or may not die. I may or may not eat eggs for breakfast. Volition brings the potential future into the fixed past. Only the present is actual/real.

 

[Parel]

The future is not there yet to see. It is not a physical thing that can be seen before it comes into existence. Does tomorrow exist yet? There are a vast number of contingent possibilities in how it will unfold. Every action can affect possible outcomes. If I drive a car, I may or may not get killed. I might get sick and I may or may not die. I may or may not eat eggs for breakfast. Volition brings the potential future into the fixed past. Only the present is actual/real.

I'm pretty sure you know what I'm going to say... :think:

 

[godrulz]

I'm pretty sure you know what I'm going to say... :think:

Not really...all I know is that God is not an astronaut nor a cosmic cowboy. :bang:

 

[Parel]

Not really...all I know is that God is not an astronaut nor a cosmic cowboy. :bang:

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[eccl3_6]

Not really...all I know is that God is not an astronaut nor a cosmic cowboy. :bang:

When is your pursuit of open theism going to stop?

First you say God can't see the future.
Secondly you say that He isn't an astronaught.


Does this mean you are saying God isn't in space now?

 

[eccl3_6]

Actually, your scenario is not true. At most it is theory. Second of all, in your scenario, if I return in 2025, it is still the year 2025. Whether or not it feels like a couple hours or not is irrelevant. Time is time no matter what it is called. It could be called nickel or any other word you choose. Fact is all time is is a measurement. Thats it.

But its relative...thats the point. The argument put forward about the cubs winning in 2025 is an argument called the twin paradox. Its very much a part of physics. You're going to have to go passed the science you learned at high school to understand this.

If you believe in SatNav for your car or GPS then that uses time dilation technology. Just because it is beyond you doesn't mean its not so.

 

[eccl3_6]

The future is not there yet to see. It is not a physical thing that can be seen before it comes into existence. Does tomorrow exist yet? There are a vast number of contingent possibilities in how it will unfold. Every action can affect possible outcomes. If I drive a car, I may or may not get killed. I might get sick and I may or may not die. I may or may not eat eggs for breakfast. Volition brings the potential future into the fixed past. Only the present is actual/real.

Agreed. I told you I wouldn't argue cause and effect. No worries. Whenever I see the 'future' by being in a different time rate its no the future, its my present. The point being if God exists in multiple time frames then He experiences time at different rates. Cause and effect isn't changed but my future is His past in certain time frames.

:noway:​

If this happened in everyday science it would be beyond comprehension to physics...but it doesn't. We can't experience multiple time frames because we are not omnipresent. God is ....He can do things we can't do. Like being in multiple time frames (if you accept omnipresence then you must accept this). If we could do that we could watch tomorrow's news today.

Fact is your philosophy is behind the times. Much like those in medieval europe who put the world at the centre of the solar system. Science has overtaken you. Not God, but you.

 

[eccl3_6]

And this is how God is? In your scenario, the year is 2025. I left in 2005. When I get back, I feel as if I havent been gone more than a couple hours.That means I must not have aged in those 20 years I'm gone. So I look the same, feel the same as when I left. Everyone else is looking and feeling older. This is science fiction. Watching too much Star Trek I say. Anyway, You make the contention that God is on earth as I am gone and He is also with me as I am floating in space those 20 years. The point is it is still 2024 as I make my way back. In space and on earth.There are no two time frames.

Ok to get upto speed you need to read some SR (special relativity),GR (general relativity), time dilation theory, Lorentz math. Use Justchristian's link which I mentioned a few posts back. Its easier enough to understand and stays away from the serious math behind the theory but it does explain it nicely. Read about 'muons', '4 atomic clock experiment', 'time dilation', 'twin paradox' specifically.

2024 is defined as how many times the earth has gone around the sun. How long does that take using a stopwatch....it depends on your time frame. You may see it as so many seconds but I would record it as something else if I were to record it at speed. Sound confusing, well it is, but science has long accepted this.

 

[godrulz]

What is that supposed to mean?

God is not a guy who flies in space ships affected by physical laws or perceptions of reality (see arguments about why God supposedly sees things so differently).

 

[godrulz]

When is your pursuit of open theism going to stop?

First you say God can't see the future.
Secondly you say that He isn't an astronaught.


Does this mean you are saying God isn't in space now?

God is distinct from creation. He fills the universe in His awareness and influence as the infinite spirit of God. He is not confined to or limited by space (whatever that is).

 

[godrulz]

But its relative...thats the point. The argument put forward about the cubs winning in 2025 is an argument called the twin paradox. Its very much a part of physics. You're going to have to go passed the science you learned at high school to understand this.

If you believe in SatNav for your car or GPS then that uses time dilation technology. Just because it is beyond you doesn't mean its not so.

Whatever time dilatation is, it does not make future non-existent events real/actual trillions of years before they happen. It also does not make 400 B.C. concurrent or subsequent to 2000 A.D. for some observers. Time is unidirectional moving from the potential future into the fixed past through the present. Fanciful GPS theories do not negate the obvious.